Packfill

Quote: Shelden looking good as well. It is easy to look good when you are playing against the backups on one of the three worst teams in the NBA.

I agree, except I think the ownership mess permeates everything so that the culture of losing comes from the ownership level down.

The team sucks either way, so I certaintly won't argue the point.

Quote: That's because if you don't take a close look at us (most reporters don't), and you see youngest team in the league, with a crazy amount of injuries, no starting PG or C, you're not expecting many wins and you don't blame the coach. Of course what they don't see is that regardless of the team and injuries, Woody has proven himself to be completely useless in a number of ways, including nonsensical substitutions and a complete lack of an offensive system. But you'd have to watch the hawks to know that, which only a handful of journalists have. The Hawks are not the youngest team in the league - they haven't been since the AJ trade.

Bottlomline is that until Zaza becomes a decent defender he is at best a platoon type of player.

This is just a question, since I haven't watched the Bucks play much, but is Bogut really better then Zaza?

Quote: and Oden would even be stupider than i thought if he didnt come out this year...you are the number one pick you take that advantage... you don't know whats going to happen next year, he could suffer some major injury or some other guy might jump onto the scene and if Oden performs ok but not speactular he could get jumped. Tell that to Tim Duncan.

He would be for depth purposes only. Even at 40 he is a defensive upgrade to Zaza. The guy I would really like the Hawks to get is McDyess, although I am not sure if he is a free agent. Bring him in for 20-25 minutes a game.

Quote: My point still is that a foundation of an elite Big doesn't seem to be as prosperous as it use to be. It used to be if you got an "elite" big, you were set. However, now... You get an elite PG, you have better chances. I think that's all do to the style of play which is more dominant right now. Another thing is that both ways, you listing of elite is limited to teams that are winning and not what the players is doing. Zach Randolph is not on your list. However, he's put up MVP type numbers this year. Baron Davis is not on your list. Ditto. I think we've fallen into the trap of letting media dictate who is elite and who is not. I was shocked to see Ray Allen still in the top 5. The reason I was shocked is because the National media doesn't show the Sonics. Only the Suns, Mavs, Heat, and Cavs. You've been made to believe tht these teams and teams like this have elite players. They just have Marketable. players. If Jordan said he was coming back to be a Hawk. The Hawks would have 27 games on national TV next year. Again, this goes to the question of who is truly an "elite" big or point guard. Once you get past guys like Nash, Kidd (a younger Kidd really), Garnett, Shaq and a few others you are not talking about the same caliber of player that led champions of yesteryear (i.e., Hakeem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, etc.). This is why everyone wants Oden. He has the potential to be a game changer. Obviously he needs some work, but the potential is there because of his athletic ability, youth, attitude and awareness.

Quote: Quote: My point still is that a foundation of an elite Big doesn't seem to be as prosperous as it use to be.... That's horse poop. Name me one "elite big" that plays on a losing team (except Zaza that is ). Elite bigs (like Bosh) don't always win it all - but they lead their teams to the playoffs. Garnett?

The thing is there are really only about a half dozen true "elite" point guards (Nash, Kidd, Paul, Deron, Arenas, Billups) and about the same number of "elite" big men (Shaq, Yao, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Brand) that can really be considered elite. That is why you get one when you have the opportunity. Having one doesn't necessarily guarantee success since many of those guys wil miss the playoffs, but it is a nice foundation to build on.

If PJ Brown is a free agent this off-season he would be a good guy to bring in to hold down some center/power forward minutes while Sheldon and Solomon figure things out. He is the type of solid hard working veteran presence the Hawks young big men need to spend time with. Obviously Lo Wright is thrown to the curb under any scenario.

Quote: Quote: Translation - "Please don't fire me!! I could have done so much more without the injuries. I swear it had nothing to do with my incompetence or the fact that I played players excessive amounts of minutes. Seriously, if you fire me, I'm screwed. It will be back to Junior High JV Girls basketball for me." It is a matter of fact, the Hawks had the Most injuries in the league. A coach can only coach his players. With as injured as this roster has been it is a wonder to win 20 games. Woody has done as good a job as any. I don't agree that it is a matter of "fact." Look at teams like the Bucks, Hornets, Bobcats, Nets, etc., they have all had as many meaningful injuries as the Hawks.

Quote: First of all.. The Lakers lost with Shaq and Shaq was better then than he is now. Secondly, regular season record means very little to championship calibre teams.. Third. Pace is what causes the Spurs to lose to the Mavericks... When a team can rebound with the Spurs & RUN.. the Spurs are in trouble. The Spurs winning has very little to do with what changes Duncan makes to his game. It has everything to do with what his supporting cast can do. I've watched Parker and Ginobili carry Duncan through playoff series. The fact that he is a dominate big made little difference. The biggest point is that teams that run (unlike in years before) are finding ways to raise their FG%. When that is the case, a dominate big doesn't factor. Um, the Lakers won a couple titles with Shaq, none without him! And you do realize that the attention defenses pay to guys like Duncan and Shaq opens things up for the wing players to make shots?

Quote: However, Now, I think with the rules changes, that the dominate Center will have to be a guy who can run. As far as "always dominate"... Shaq didn't dominate last year. He was a contributor. It was "flash" who carried that Heat team. The heat would have had the same results with just Alonzo playing Center. The Spurs slow it down pace, is going to lose in the playoffs to either the Mavericks or the Suns... or maybe to one of these other teams like the Nuggets... Do you really think the Heat win the championship without Shaq? Is it a coincidence that Kobe does not have any rings without Shaq? Does it mean anything that Miami had a losing record until Shaq returned this season? And you do realize that the defensive pressure is always turned up in the playoffs which tends to benefit the good defensive teams with solid fundamentals like the Spurs as opposed to the Mavs or Suns? Sure the Mavs or Suns may win this year, but the Spurs "slow it down pace" is actually a benefit for them come playoff time.

Quote: There is no doubt in my mind. The dude is still only 19 and he is just now scratching the surface of his talent. I'd take him over anyone not named Oden or Durant in this draft. Al Horford, arguably the 3rd best prospect in this draft, averaged 11.3/7.6 as a sophomore and 13.2/9.5 as a junior. Marvin averaged 11.3/6.6 as a FRESHMAN. And he came off the bench. I have no doubt that if Marvin were in college last year, he would have put up better numbers at UNC than Horford did at FL and he would be a virtual lock for the #3 pick. Let's no go overboard here, no way Marvin is the third pick in the draft this year - he wouldn't have been the third pick in last years draft, which was not as good as this years is shaping up. If you doubt me, then explain why Rudy Gay, who is essentially the same player as Marvin, was not a top 3 pick.

Quote: Dominant centers will always dominate. That's just the way it is. If a young Shaq or a young Duncan or Kareem was around, they would dominate. As it is, an old Shaq and an old Duncan are still dominating right now. Think about it: Shaq or Duncan have won 7 out of the last 8 championships. So to me, the only thing that's over is the era of the crappy lumbering center. That is, instead of going with a crappy stiff just because he's big, I think now teams would rather move an undersized but athletic and skilled player over to the center spot. Agreed, and this is not something new - guys like Sam Perkins, Mychael (sp) Thompson, John Salley, Kevin Willis and others played at least some center despite not fitting the traditional profile.

Quote: Hate too break the news to you Marvin lovers. Marvin is not worth no where near a 6-8 pick thats laughable. He is worth about a late 1st at best. The guy hasnt lived up to the hype being drafted overall. His value has dropped since he was drafted. I dont even think he would be a top 10 in his own draft class if the draft were redone. Yet alone in this draft being one of the deepest in years maybe ever. Come on now, while Marvin is definitely not enough to net the #2 pick in this years draft he is enough to get a late lotter pick. Some teams would still prefer him and his two years of experience over a Jeff Green (note I said some teams, not all teams).

Quote: How could you pass on a guy who has already proven that he can take a moderately talented team to one of the top 3 records in the EC? He is averaging 28/7/6 at 22 years old and his numbers are DOWN from last year. We would spend endless amounts of time on ABC, ESPN, TNT, etc and Philips Arena would be sold out every night. No other player in the NBA would bring a higher profile to the team than LeBron, including Kobe Bryant, and he has proven to be a winner at the NBA level. After LeBron, good question. I think Carmelo is a franchise player and I think both Oden and Durant will be. Still, because of Melo's off court issues, I'd place him at #4. Tough call on who to go with between Oden and Durant. If I'm the Hawks, Oden is my pick. If I already have a quality young big man though (BOS, MEM, ORL, CHA), I would definitley consider going with Durant. Agreed.

Personally, I am sick of the losing so the idea of another rebuild is not all to appealing. I especially do not want to entrust BK with three lottery picks.

Quote: Quote: We don't need to keep getting younger. Let me put a stop to a common line of thought before it takes over this thread. First, it is true that all things equal, players are worse when they're very young. HOWEVER, this does not mean that youth should be avoided at all costs. Let's take it case by case. Oden is younger than Zaza. Is he therefore worse? Oh, my lord, no. Durant is younger than MW. Is he therefore worse? LOL, no. Conley is younger than AJ. Is he worse? Oh my sides, no. Hibbert is younger than Lo. Is he worse? It's hard to be much worse than Lo. The belief that "we don't need any more young players" is poorly thought out. While it's true we need more veteran leadership, we should realize the changes proposed don't cost us any of that. We're not proposing to get younger at JJ or Smoove's positions. Those guys stay intact. Childress stays with his mature play. Realize that if you are suggesting this youth influx hurts us, you are arguing that a reduction in Zaza's minutes for a stronger defensive center would be a bad thing. You are arguing that MW is better than Durant by virtue of his being 2 years older...or perhaps that experience helps him "know how to win". Clearly these things are false. No one is saying Oden, Durant, Conley or Hibbert aren't far superior to current players on the Hawks roster. So don't even go there. What I am saying is that you need BALANCE - i.e., mixture of youth and vets. No team with three rookies, no matter how good they are, is going anywhere fast.

Quote: I've been thinking, if we somehow got the #2 pick, we would obviously take Durant. My question is, could we then turn around and trade Marvin straight up for a pick in the 7-8 range (surely he is worth that much on potential, alone) and take Hibbert? If we got out of this draft with Durant, Hibbert, and Conley, I would say we'd be sitting very, very pretty for the future. Durant is an upgrade over Marvin at SF, Hibbert is the defensive big we need, and Conley would be a great PG for us. Conley/AJ JJ/Salim Durant/Chillz Smoove/Shelden Zaza/Hibbert What do yall think? I think having three rookies playing prominent roles would be a mistake.

Quote: Gerald G. cooking - 19 already! who is guarding green?

I never said Jack was the target, although he would be someone that may be available. A guy like Deron Williams would be perfect, but . . .

Quote: Are you guys forgetting we will get the Indy pick? If we got the #1 pick we draft Oden immediately and then take the best available PG with the Indy pick that is looking like it will be in the 11-14 range. We take either Conley or Law. Problems solved. WE don't need to trade anyone You need to go back and read my post - I did consider that we can get the Indy pick but stated my opinion that the Hawks would be better off trading the pick and/or a player for a starting point guard so as to avoid the likelihood of starting two rookies.