Packfill

Because our coach did not use him properly.

They basically said he was expected to be raw, but turned out to be an average athlete with below average skills. I have never been a big proponent of Marvin but even I think that is a huge mischaracterization.

They have no love for the Hawks picking them to finish last in the East and dissing Marvin hard. They did have good things to say about Smoove, Zaza and the addition of Speedy.

It seems like you have anger issues.

Quote: I'll refer everyone to my previous posts concerning this. If you love the Hawks how could you love someone that did that to them? Go be a Pacer fan if you wanted that guy to stay. He did nothing to help the TEAM. He's just stealing money. Is it really entertainment to watch Al hoist up shots? Please tell me you are not being serious. Al is far from a great player and was wrongly forced into a leading role here in Atlanta but to hate a guy who played hard, had a great attitude and a reasonable contract is moronic.

Thanks for the insight.

Quote: I agree hight has something to do with the ability to play PF but it isn't the whole bag of chips. Rodman Oakly Barkley Hasleem AC Green All were around 6'9" or shorter (Barkley is reported to be 6'6"!!). Its desire, strength, timing, and positioning that make a good defensive PF. Lets give Shellhead a year or two before we make any decision, just like any other rookie. Making statements that someone is bound to fail right off the bat is foolish. Also, saying a player is going to be great after their first season is equally foolish. There are plenty of things that can change and players hit their cieling at different times. Power players especially can take until they are 28 to completely hit their stride in the NBA. For me, I will with hold my judgements on any of this or last years draft until next year. Barkley was listed as 6'6", but was reportedly 6'4.5"! What made him good as a rebounder however was the fact that he could get off the floor quicker then the other big guys around him, so he negated some of the height disadvantage. The most common trait with undersized power forwards who succeed in the NBA is an unrelentless approach to rebounding - these guys just outwork their opponent. Sheldon appears to have more natural skill then guys like Reggie Evans, Udonis Haslem, Buck Williams and Danny Fortson, so he certaintly has a shot at succeeding, he just needs to work very hard at it. Sheldon does not seem to have the raw athleticism of guys like Rodman, Barkley and AC Green.

Thanks for the recap.

Thanks for the recap. Your observations that both Smoove and Marvin are small forwards confirms what I saw last year. No harm in experimenting this year though since it is unlikely the team can lose more games then in the past. Hopefully the coaching staff finds a way to make it work or, alternatively, at least showcase them so BK can pull off a trade to balance out the roster.

Youth and defensive intensity are the main hurdles for this team if they want to win 42 games.

Quote: I think the Hawks already have all the pieces in place for a championship team right now...if we could draft a young Tim Duncan or Shaquille O'Neal this summer. I agree 100%

If Marvin averages 17 and 6 this team will be even better then what most expect. I don't think he will have those types of numbers, but I would be disappointed if he earns less then 30 minutes a game or averages less then 11 a game.

I was not implying that you don't get it - there are legions on this board that constantly complain that BK/Hawks get no respect. All I am saying is that they should not be surprised given the teams won/loss record the past several years. And yes, as you pointed out, a 50 win season does wash away the taint of bad moves. Look at the Clippers - long derided as one of the worst franchises in the NBA, they are now one of the "hot" teams in the league. BK has always been good at drafting talented players with lottery selections, but he needs to add on court production from a team to his resume. If the Hawks win 50 this year you can guarantee thay no one will be bringing up the Chris Paul debate again.

Quote: Since the Paul vs. Williams monotony continues to dominate this board, I wanted to remind folks of this quote again. It's one of my favorites. Jerry West on his #4 pick Drew Gooden: Quote: "We've got the rookie of the year," West said, flatly. "You can write that." A few months later, an irate West traded Gooden to the Magic to get the stink of missing on Stoudamire off his hands. You might think West would still be getting reamed from the press, but it appears some think he's doing just GREAT. Winning 50 games will make a lot of folks ignore the actual moves you've made. Here's a year-old article on the questions West has to answer as a GM of the Grizz. Notice how the article admits West had flubbed the draft every year. In spite of that, it goes on to say West "did exactly what was asked of him" and this disgusting quote: Quote: But isn't the bottom line the number of wins and losses? Isn't that how NBA executives are measured? The Grizzlies had never won more than 23 games before West. In the three years since he arrived, they've won 28, 50 and 45. So, West flubbed the draft, but he should be applauded for turning the Grizz around? Yeah, that sure was a great trade he made for Pau Gasol. I mean he really fleeced that Babcock. Oh wait. That was Billy Knight. Essentially, West made some MAJOR draft blunders, and failed to improve his team, but he's still getting his sack massaged by the press. If I were BK, I sure would be bitter. Billy Knight has improved the Hawks, but he is being crucified for making the pick everyone thought he should make. Billy Knight built the Grizzlies, and he's outdrafted West, but West is getting the credit. West refused to come here because he felt we were in a horrible situation with contracts. That's exactly the same situation Memphis was in before Knight bailed them out, which is the same thing he did here. Knight sure does a lot of dirty work with little respect. BTW, Walter, this is not a support Billy Knight or Marvin Williams thread. It's a "look everyone makes drafting errors...but not everyone gets criticized for it" thread. Please don't post some repetitive diatribe about having so much "capitol" [sic] and not improving or a 2 SF line-up. The bottom line is that: WINS = RESPECT; LOSSES = DISRESPECT. West has earned respect because his teams have won games. Same reason Joe Dumars does not get killed for the Darko pick and subsequent trade - his teams win games. Similarly, a guy like Steve Nash is univerally regarded as one of the games best while Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis (two incredibly talented players) are regarded as wastes - because their teams don't win and Nash's teams do. Until BK wins puts a team on the floor that has a winning season he will not get any respect. It really is as simple as that. In his 4+ years as a GM in Memphis and Atlanta he has yet to have a team win 30 games. You can make excuses all you want about youth and salary cap purges but bottom line he has one of the all time worst won-lost records of any GM in history. If he quit today that is all people will remember about him. I don't understand why people don't get this.

Quote: Quote: That is not a good comparison. Both Lebron and Carmelo would have been drafted before Bogut/Marvin/Paul/etc. if they were in the same draft. Both were truly exceptional talents - franchise altering talents. Marvin and Paul are good talents, but not on the level of Lebron and Carmelo. What that means is that absent a franchise level talent head and shoulders above the rest, a strong argument can be made to pick the guy who most fills a need since the ceiling on all the available prospects is similar. Who knows how good Marvin will be 2 years from now. I was just disputing the notion that it is ridiculous to build around a Small forward when teams do it all of the time. I never said that teams do not build around small forwards - just that historically championship teams are not built around small forwards.

Quote: Quote: There is one fundamental flaw in your theory. That flaw is that Marvin does not fix the defensive problem anymore then Paul My theory isn't that Marvin helped us more than Paul, it's simply that Paul wouldn't have helped us as much last season as the national media seems to think...I've read over and over that we could have been a playoff team if we'd have drafted Paul, and I just don't think that's true. I don't ever remembering reading or hearing anyone suggest that the Hawks would have been a playoff team last year with or without Paul - the team was just too young and inexperienced. With Paul, you have a great backcourt for the next 6+ years along with a strong forward rotation with Smoove, Sheldon and Childress. Something to think about. Perhaps Marvin will explode this year and make all this discussion moot. I hope he does, I just am not sure it will happen.

Quote: Quote: Trying to build a team around a Sf is foolishness unless you have somebody with the skills of Bird or Dr. J. So I take it that you would not have drafted Labron James or Carmelo Anthony. That is not a good comparison. Both Lebron and Carmelo would have been drafted before Bogut/Marvin/Paul/etc. if they were in the same draft. Both were truly exceptional talents - franchise altering talents. Marvin and Paul are good talents, but not on the level of Lebron and Carmelo. What that means is that absent a franchise level talent head and shoulders above the rest, a strong argument can be made to pick the guy who most fills a need since the ceiling on all the available prospects is similar.

There is one fundamental flaw in your theory. That flaw is that Marvin does not fix the defensive problem anymore then Paul, but the minutes give to Marvin at forward will likely cut into the minutes given to Sheldon and Smoove. Sheldon and Smoove, more then any two players currently on the Hawks roster, have the chance to improve the Hawks interior defense (Smoove as a shotblocker and Sheldon as a rugged interior defender). For the record, I would have picked Paul, but am not throwing wood on that fire today. Rather, my point is that the Hawks interior defense will only improve by getting players on the court who have the potential to play good interior defense. Maybe Marvin will show he can play good interior defense this year - thus fortifying your initial theory, but we didn't see it last year (you can make a very strong argument that we didn't see it from Smoove either for what it is worth).

Quote: Quote: We had Smoove at the three but is he really a good three? Does he have the potential to be a star at 3? My answer is no so we went out and got Marvin. At the time, you're right, Smoove was not a great Sf when the Marvin draft came up. However, we also had Al, Diaw, Donta, and Chillz. Don't forget, Chillz and Smoove had played out the end of the season and they were looking good... especially Chillz. Moreover, Sf is not the most essential of positions. How many championship teams are championship calibre team have great Sfs? In the last 30 years, there has only been 3 great Sfs on Championship teams.. Bird, Worthy, and Dr. J. and of those, only Bird and J were capable of leading their teams to the finals and winning. Worthy without Magic and Kareem was just another good Sf... I don't know if he even approaches Dominique. Trying to build a team around a Sf is foolishness unless you have somebody with the skills of Bird or Dr. J. But that's another argument... Back to the rest of my response... Quote: We had Point guard by committee penciled in at point guard but was that going to be enough to get everyone involve while keeping our turn-over down? My Answer is no. So we went out and got Speedy. We could have easily penciled in Smoove at Sf and done something about the more important PG position. You don't allow one of the most important positions to go unmanned while you d*ck around with a position that really doesn't move you closer to championship calibre. There is some truth to the notion that a championship team should not be built around a small forward. Hopefully Smoove or Marvin can change that perception.

I want to see him play some defense and hit a higher percentage of his shots. I would not be surprised if his numbers actually declined, but his overall contribution increase.

Quote: I have to agree with Walter this guy probably isn't much to see because god only knows @ 7'1" if nobody is trying to get him then he must be pretty pitiful. I agree too. There is a high probability this guy is a stiff. Why are people upset about this?

Didn't he just say he likes Freije?

Quote: Quote: Jowh Smith is the backup power forward despite the fact that he was a starter last year Smith was the starting 3 last year and will be again to start the season. That is what I am reading into that statement as well.

It is really too early to determine. If I had the choice between the two coming out of college I would have chosen Okafor. Right now his injuries scare me but I think he has potential - not David Robinson potential but maybe Alonzo Mourning potential. Marvin is all potential no production, so it is really hard to say. This year will be important for both.

If Lo Wright is the starting power forward for the Hawks at any point this season the team is in deep, deep trouble. Seriously, if he has to play meaningful minutes that means at least two of Sheldon/Smoove/Marvin are incapable of holding down meaningful minutes, which is very bad for the development of the team.