thecampster

No, its simple risk management. What level of risk are you willing to accept against what cost.

It was a slower game then and he had length. I'm not sure McHale would be the same player in today's NBA.

Notice throughout this thread I've pointed out how people with opposing views feel. Its because I take the time to understand it from their point of view. Its why I understand the point their trying to make when they make it. Theater of Security means its all a show, an act made to make us feel as though something good has been done. If a Surgical mask is only 60-80% effective, all you've done is engage in risk reduction, not mitigation. Your point, most everyone's point here is I should always wear a mask when I leave my house and there is any chance of interacting with another human being. My answer is simple, in places I'm not required to, I just really don't want to. Part of my don't want to is because if 40% of potential virus penetrates my mask (low end of surgical) or 70% of a bandanna/cloth mask, I've lowered my exposure by 30-60%. Only takes 1 germ to infect and every cough of an infected person has thousands of virus cells. I'm not stopping anything. 40% of 3 thousand is still 1200. Although I agree there is value, I don't see that value being enough to feel forced to mask up to avoid becoming a social pariah. Now admit it, you probably didn't know the reduction rates of masks before I told you and probably didn't know that cloth masks are less than 50% effective. But the very important people told you that if we all just masked up this would go away and you bought it. There is really only 1 way to make this go away. Everyone stocks up on food/toilet paper, supplies enough to last 2 months. Everyone stays indoors and there are no essential services. We 100% distance ourselves from everyone and this thing will die out. All you are doing with masks is extending shutdowns and making people feel its okay to hug/shake hands/grab a bag of food at the McDonalds if you just wear a mask. Only one doctor I know of on the board and you all pretty much call him crazy at every turn.

Well if you saw my very early posts on this, I expressed concern immediately about this things' effect on personal freedoms. I also was very clear in the beginning, the first thing we needed to do was accept that people would die. I got criticized for that and you probably disagree, but it is very important in a situation like this to be ruled by logical, realistic thought. This is not an all or nothing situation, as shown in my personal approach. One of the things I've seen most with the mask wearing is people feeling invincible (or invisible, take your pick) when they wear one in public. They think, wear mask and I'm covered and then they go about getting very close to each other, shaking hands, etc. See these recommendations from the Mayo clinic. Here are a few pointers for putting on and taking off a cloth mask: Place your mask over your mouth and nose. Tie it behind your head or use ear loops and make sure it's snug. Don't touch your mask while wearing it. If you accidentally touch your mask, wash or sanitize your hands. Remove the mask by untying it or lifting off the ear loops without touching the front of the mask or your face. Wash your hands immediately after removing your mask. Regularly wash your mask with soap and water in the washing machine. It's fine to launder it with other clothes. Finally, here are a few face mask precautions: Don't put masks on anyone who has trouble breathing, or is unconscious or otherwise unable to remove the mask without help. Don't put masks on children under 2 years of age. Don't use face masks as a substitute for social distancing. Now notice the bold and enlarged fonts. If you watch the videos of the protests, you see lots of people that as soon as they engage someone, they pull down their mask so they can yell/chant, etc. Then they put the mask back over their mouth by pulling it up. Many if not most people think that wearing that mask allows them to ignore the last guideline. Many if not most "mask wearers" are handling their mask often, not washing them and are setting them down on surfaces in their car, home or notebook bag. Many if not most are removing them improperly and aren't washing their hands when touched or rub their eyes. They are significantly less effective if you have facial hair and are not fully effective unless they meet certain criteria. From the CDC: " “A cloth face covering may not protect the wearer, but it may keep the wearer from spreading the virus to others.” So as you can see, the CDC points out that it doesn't keep you from catching it and may (not will) keep the wearer from spreading. I see real danger in this because we see people ignoring all the steps above because they think the mask "will" protect them and "will" stop them from spreading it. This means spreaders go out into crowds thinking the mask fixes everything and they lessen or ignore the other guidelines (which are far more important). The virus is easily contracted through the eyes as well as the respiratory system. A mask may lower your chances of catching / spreading but nobody has gone on record as saying by how much. From : "Coronavirus Protection: N95 Masks vs Surgical Masks vs Cloth Masks The masks that provide the best protection against coronavirus are N95 masks and certain surgical masks: A tight-fitting N95 mask that is properly fitted to the face is able to block out small particle aerosols and large droplets (roughly 95% of airborne particles) through which the virus is typically transmitted. A surgical mask, which is made from a more porous material and has a looser fit than an N95 mask, is more effective at limiting the spread of droplets from coughs and sneezes coming from the wearer. Because it is highly permeable, it does not provide much protection against small virus particles.... A recent NY Times article reported the initial findings of Professor Yang Wang, who has been recognized internationally for his aerosol research. Professor Wang and his graduate students found that an allergy-reduction HVAC filter captured 89 percent of particles with one layer and 94 percent with two layers. By comparison, an N95 mask captures at least 95 percent of particles as small as 0.3 microns, while a typical surgical mask filters about 60 to 80 percent of particles." Basically, this means a surgical level mask allows 20 to 40% through. Cloth masks (bandannas, t-shirt, etc) filter far less. But people put that bandanna over their mouth and think their good and can do whatever they want. I don't wanna be that guy who is masked up and so people feel comfortable approaching him. This all falls into what we in the security risk analysis world call, "The Theater of Security". There is a great "Adam Explains everything" that focuses heavily on the theater of security. The unintended consequences of the measures are given people a feeling of security and so they don't follow other good practices.

I really enjoyed that video. Very good breakdown.

I try to stay away from people in general.

News overnight. Former Hawks Alex Len and Jabari Parker as well as Buddy Heild all tested positive for Covid. https://news.yahoo.com/kings-forward-jabari-parker-isolating-235639771.html

Is true though. Made up, sure, but still holds truth. Not exactly sure on the fining but if I had a business and a customer came in with a service dog with a proper vest and such, I'd let it ride. You don't wanna be the guy forcing the asthmatic to mask up while climbing stairs, pushing a cart or carrying packages.

and that right there is the infringement. You're applying social pressure, believing you have a right to influence me in the public space. Shaming me is the exact worse way to get my cooperation. See, you're pushing past the very core of what I'm saying because you know its right. You wanna make it a law, so be it. You bend it against the court of public opinion. I'm okay with that. But you start thinking you have the right to tell others how to behave, what risks to take, etc because it fits your own personal morality, then we have a problem. I said the exact same thing to Bleachkit and he's on the other side of the issue. I don't want him forcing his morality on me and I don't wanna force mine on him. I don't want him forcing a state open too early and I don't want you restricting personal freedom in the public space. You're gonna hate this, but I'm in the middle on this. I'm the centrist......which is weird for me, trust me.

Because I don't want to. That should be enough. The idea that I owe someone an explanation (who will most likely argue with that explanation) is a bit crazy and the crux of what I'm saying.

and here we go, "why do I need to justify myself to some random person who I don't know, won't bump into on the street?" this is what I'm talking about on the freedom angle of this. Not jumping you, but using you as an example. If Bob, Jane or "Camp" make a choice that is acceptable in the public space, you don't have a right to confront them or even question them. You have the same choice to make, to enter that space. If I make you uncomfortable, you can choose not to enter. You have no more right to the space than I do. If I'm within the rules of the space, you don't have the right to make new rules, impose your morality. I see a societal danger here that you aren't seeing, addressing. We all say don't give in to peer pressure, be your own man but then we spend 90% of our time trying to change other people's behavior. It isn't up to you to decide if wearing a mask is an inconvenience. Yes it is rude for others to expect me to have to justify my legal actions to every person who questions them. I see a very uncomfortable trend here toward society at the lowest level feeling the right to moderate behavior. This is the very beginning of the mob mentality and the loss of freedom. Very deep concept here, but please allow me some leeway. Many, many of the people yelling wear a mask really couldn't tell you the first thing about this virus, its transmission, survival rates, lifespan on surfaces or in the air. Its no different than the Boogie Man to them but they continue to have extremely strong opinions in the public space about it because they saw something on tv (both sides fyi). At some point, a question has to be asked. "How long do we let the uneducated mob, dictate policy?" This is deeper than Corona but goes into all aspects of the political space. From the very beginning of this outbreak, I have been in favor of social distancing, shelter in place and engaging in risk management. However, I am not in favor of the mob being able to dictate mine or anyone else's behavior. I was in favor of my company making the choice to engage the BCP (Business Continuity Pan) and begin work from home, but I've been against the government "mandating" work from home. I'm all for a grocery store "mandating" masks to enter the stores, enforcing social distancing, blocking off entrances as enter/exit. But I an 100% against the random customer trying to enforce it in the store. I'm all for stores making the decision to adjust their hours, making curbside pickup mandatory, or installing spit screens at the checkout and wiping down credit card machines and carts often. I am not for empowering the average Yahoo to make those choices for me. Ask yourself this, do you know how long this thing lives on surfaces? Do you know the chances of air to air transmission? Do you know how many cases are in your county as opposed to mine? Yes you feel empowered to make a judgment or offer advice. I find this highly dangerous to empower the average citizen to feel like the Corona police, religious police, diet police, hygiene police, window shades police, eco warrior police or straws police. Not hammering on you but using it to frame my entire stance on this.

So a follow up. I found a guy. HVAC is a racket. I was quoted systems from $16k to $19k to get a high efficiency system (19 seer or higher). I went out and sourced the main equipment myself, used budgetheating.com. I found and ordered a 5 ton heat pump 19 seer and 5 ton air handler with emergency heat strips for $6,200 total with shipping. The guys at Pinnacle Heating and Air in Hiram agreed to install the system and fix my duct issues (discussed below) for $3710. Right at $10k sourcing everything myself to fix everything. The story, I bought this house in 2007. From the moment we moved in, we thought it odd our utility bills were consistently $200 to $300 a month for a new, quality home. We bought right at the beginning of the housing crash and didn't know the builder was going out of business. A bit of background. In HVAC, a good rule of thumb is 1 ton per 600 sq ft. A ton is 400cfm of air moved and 12,000 btu cooling/24,000 btu heating (roughly). The systems should match in tonnage. Also, motors in HVAC come in 3 flavors, single stage (on/off), dual stage (off, 65%, 100%) and variable (off, 25%-100% in increments of .1, 1 or 5%). More stages = more efficient and higher seer. Seer ratings are a simple thing. Take new seer divided by old seer to get the efficiency improvement. One more consideration, air flow. Supply air is your vents that supply air to your house. Return air is the air sucked back up into the air handler (furnace). Your return air available must be at least equal to the CFM of your air handler. So if your return vents only allow 1000 CFM on a 5 ton (2000 CFM) system, its akin to sucking air through a straw trying to breathe. You have to work way harder to breathe. Spend more energy. The best systems are designed with return vents in every closed room (except kitchen/bath) and then central returns to each floor. Small returns in rooms, central returns in middle of the home. So 2 weeks ago, I'd had enough of the crazy HVAC bills. In my worst months, they were 75% of my utilities. I started doing the research you saw above. 2 story house, 3165 square feet. Issue 1: My AC unit outside is a 4 ton, 13 seer, 13 year old unit. My furnace is a 3 ton 80% efficient unit. The fan coil (sits on top of furnace, removes moisture) is a 5 ton. The fan coil connects to the A/C unit and if they are not the same size, they're never be able to sync compression. This is a problem when your a/c runs. Regardless of the size of the A/C, the furnace is 3 ton. So 1/4 of the energy produced by the a/c is wasted. So my 13 seer A/C unit is running at 75% efficiency. 13x.75=9.75 seer. But because the fan coil is 20% too big, it can never properly compress (my a/c guys swore I must have had a leak). Meaning it was really running at 80% of that 9.75% or 7.8 seer. Issue 2: There are only 2 returns in the house. One central upstairs, one in the office upfront corner downstairs. Each return is on a 14 inch diameter duct into a 14x20 grill. Each requires an air filter. Each should grant about 750 cfm without filter and as low as 500 cfm with for a total of 1000 cfm, half of what I need to run the house. Not a terrible thing since the furnace is undersized, but that brings issue 2.5. Neither return is in a return plenum box. instead, they cut holes in the size and back of the furnace to attach the ducts. Side of furnace is okay, but back of furnace is a code violation and it specifically says on furnaces, do not cut the back panel. air doesn't flow well from the front and back by design. there is a tent shape inside the bottom of the furnace and air left/right/bottom flow on both sides of the ten. Air in the back only hits 1/2 of the tent. means reduced heat transfer in winter and partial air flow in both seasons. So the 750 cfm return in the back that was already reduced to 500 cfm by the filter was now cut even more (about 75%) for a total air return for the house of 500+375 = 875 cfm for a 3165 sq foot house. Issue 3: you have to vent an attic in the south. luckily, they did install 7 x 200 cfm attic vents which meets code. However, they pull their able from the gable vent on the front side of the house (that square or round vent you see in the arch of houses). They failed to cut the entire hole for the gable. Its only about 75% exposed. So the attic is/was hotter than needed (I installed radiant barrier 8 years ago which relieved part of this problem). The attic is hotter than need be. 2 solar powered vent fans @ $300 each and properly cutting the gable vent opening (plyboard behind it) would drop the temperature in the attic another 15 degrees and allow the system to function normally. I've had 3 different HVAC guys validate the above. But I've been pretty good about maintenance, having HVAC techs to my house to fix my issues and do maintenance at least 15 times since moving in. None pointed any of it out as the source of my issues when adding freon or lubing the chassis. We assume what the builder did was find whatever HVAC pieces he had in the warehouse or at scratch and dent and cobbled together a system...maybe paid the inspector to look the other way....who knows. It would have cost maybe $2000 total during the build to do it right. Get matching parts (HVAC was much cheaper in 2007) and install right returns. The plenum box to fix the return into the back of the furnace is only about $90. We estimate that their foolishness has cost us an average of $100 per month in utilities since we bought the place. We have lived here almost 13 years. I've paid nearly $15000 too much for HVAC over the years (a bit at a time) and wasted all that energy. HVAC is a crazy business, with overpriced systems, poor install quality and repair techs who don't know anything about system design. All they know how to do is swap out parts. I learned it all in a few weeks and it kind of makes me sick to think about the waste and people spending more than they have to. I am not looking forward to doing this all over again when we start looking at solar next month once we know the anticipated bills.

LOL, I hadn't even thought of that. To be 100% fair in this topic, I pretty much am not wearing a mask in public. But I'm also almost never in public and if I do, I go off hours (very early) when almost no one is at the store. Pretty much all of my going out is 1 of 3 things. Walmart for groceries, Home Depot for projects to keep me busy and fast food drive thrus. So going to Wal-mart/Home Depot before 8 AM when there is almost no one in the store comparatively. Conscious choice. If I need something, I don't go when busy. I do have masks at home and have worn them. I decide on what/when/where based on risk to me and to others. So my perception is risk reduction. If I was heading to Walmart at 5PM, I'd be in one without question. Also, I do most of the shopping for my household and have the stores memorized. I'm rarely inside more than I need to be. Additionally, I haven't been faced with going anywhere where a mask is mandatory. If it was, I'd wear without question. But again, I'm minimizing risk via limiting exposure more than anything else. The core of my statement isn't a store telling me what to do, its Bob on the street. Most of the issues we're seeing aren't the guy refusing to mask up in Costco when the greeter tells him to (ridiculous video). The majority of issues is someone masking up in a store is offended someone else isn't. Which brings me to something that pisses me off more than masks. Most stores (I'll use Walmart as my example) are clearly marking aisles as walk this way every other aisle to create flow where you don't pass someone. People walking up a down aisle pisses me off more than finding out my favorite show getting cancelled due to a writer's guild strike (yes this happened, yes I pouted). That walk this way sign is one of the most effective things I've seen to keep people from coming face to face. Same song, different story, the 6 foot stickers are checkout. I'm checking out a week ago, and some joker starts loading up the conveyor belt behind me (which is well inside the 6 foot sticker), finishes and walks up and stands right next to me while I'm entering my debit card pin number. So not only is the yahoo violating the 6 foot rule, rubbing elbows but now he's watching me enter my card number. But I looked at him scowling and politely said, "a little space there buddy". He answers, "sorry bro, thought you were done". Literally bumped my elbow.....so yah, I'm crazy but that ticks me off more.

No one is arguing that, but most people don't want to other people telling them what to do in public. What I find maybe most interesting is nobody throwing a fit about the protests. Its the same concept. Tons of people running around with bandannas around their necks 1/2 of the time. I mentioned it mid protests that I was wondering if cases would spike a week or 2 later. Its happening but we're blaming it on other things. The whole thing is 100% selfish. But they have a right to do it. Yes, the attitude is going to lead to people dying, but guess what. This is a very simple equation. You want to be able to moderate people's behavior in public spaces, you need to be prepared to have your behavior moderated as well.

IMHO, I don't get people flaunting things but if you come out to Paulding, 90% of people aren't wearing one. Its barely hit Paulding County.

Consider the "its my body" argument. They have a right to go out and use the public space, so do you. So by what right do you have the right to tell them how to enter that space. See, that's how they are seeing it (and me by the way). I am not willing to yield my rights to freedom of movement to you because you hold fear. Just because I'm not wearing a mask (actually constitutional theory as its been applied and not reality) doesn't mean I can't enter a space. Now if the store has that policy, in my worldview, I respect the right of the store to operate their business how they see fit and I would tell anyone else, that is their property and they can put in that policy. Never go there again if it offends you and the court of the public opinion will see if the policy is fair or not (ie...are they in business next month). But what I don't subscribe to is customer X wants to get into customer Z's face because they don't have a mask on. If you are in a store that doesn't require it, keep your fat trap shut. You have no right what to tell that person to do in a public space. Its their body, their choice. You have a choice to go to another store if it bother's you. Talk to corporate and request that policy, start a petition but if you get in my face in the store and tell me to put a mask on and try to shame me publicly, I'm within my rights to insult you, your family, your life choice and your choice of shoes. By what right does a person have to try and dictate what I do in a shared public space? It is no different than someone coming to you and telling you to stop smoking in public, stop drinking or to accept Jesus. If you feel strongly about it, try to change the law...you'll lose but give it a shot. Most of these restrictive policies are getting challenged in court these days and eventually are going to lose if they're found to be exclusionary. Its a slippery slope.

As an added bonus, let me take you down coronavirus-conspiracy lane for a second. Have you noticed this virus seems to favor killing old people and minorities? That the government was way too quick to divert attention from it being manmade, even though ample evidence existed that it was. Did you notice how convenient it was that it came from pretty much the exact suspected area you would suspect this kind of thing. That it got loose in china and was snuffed out quick but moved overseas? Now take a second and wonder how this would affect money. There are in excess of 100,000 deaths in the US now (118,000) and over 80% of those deaths are people over the age of 65 (the portion of the population that has the most stagnant wealth, consume the most medical resources and produce the least economically speaking). Assuming for a second that the 100,000 ish old people who have died already were all on Social Security and had a modest $10,000 shared wealth each (some owned houses, stocks, etc...you get the drift). you just witnessed a billion dollars in wealth transferred in 3 months from that alone. A good part of which the government gets a small slice of and if each person was collecting $1200/month in SSI and another $1000/month in health benefits, you just cleared up $200 million in government payouts monthly. Additionally, the inheritance would go to the hands of people who would more than likely spend it (see last months bump in retail spending) or had to spend it on funeral arrangements. Although the short term hit to businesses has affected social security in the short run, the long term ramifications could literally save the program. Many countries have similar programs to SSI. India has one, China takes care of all of its residents. Now consider China and India. They live in a perpetual food crisis. Their old folks make up 15% of the population but produce almost none of the resources and wealth. In my estimation (okay the internet), 15.2% of the US population is over the age of 65. This virus has already killed 100k. Total US elderly population is 45 million. That means its already killed 1 in every 450 old people....chew on that for a minute and its effects on government healthcare/SSI. If allowed to run rampant, you could see deaths in the elderly population (of which one is my mother) in the millions. Ya, I think it could have been man made...especially coming from China. Usually following the money is true. Now given what I just said, think about the other factors like people refusing to wear masks.

Realize that most of the people of this mindset also were told if we didn't stop global warming that Philadelphia would be beach front property by 2020, that killer bees were going to kill us all by 2003 and that Roswell New Mexico was just a weather balloon (okay threw that last one in for fun). Seriously though. Its chicken little syndrome. Sky is falling all their lives and poof, no sky...they aren't running when you point out the ball of flashing light with a trail headed right for them. In order to get this, you must first understand we have been lied to before by politicians to further other agendas. Take global warming in an attempt to move us off of fossil fuels and middle east dependence. Is there some truth to the science, yes. But the whole, change it all now or we're all under water by 2020 (yes that was the original demarcation point) was just hysterics to create the incentive to buy in. There was other incentive as well, (remember this is coming from a guy who drives 2 electric cars and is mid home remodel, solar panel install) in the form of US businesses heavily invested in wind solar and the rare earth metal trade (have to create enough "want" to make mining in central/south america viable financially). We've been told every lie in the book the last 40 years (from both parties) in order to move public policy. So excuse people who are skeptical when they are told that something they can't see and hasn't affected them yet is going to wipe out a business they've building for 20 years. Is it misplaced this time...oh heavens yes....but its not born out of exclusive crazy. There is reasoning behind it. Especially rural sympathetic folks are really tired of city folks running their lives. They're easily the most skeptical, but many suburbanites are born and bred from that same people. Their skepticism is real and not 100% crazy. I disagree with them, but I get where they are coming from.

Because you aren't trying. They are of the mindset that the faster this thing spreads, the faster it goes away. Which by the way is true, the carnage is just greater.

Its a chicken and the egg argument. On one hand you say, it doesn't matter if we slow the spread if everyone goes bankrupt and is killing themselves, starving, etc. Lets keep doing what we're doing, speed up the spread, accept the losses and move on. Especially for people on the lower end of the economic scale or who are small business owners, closing up shop/not going to work is devastating. its every bit as scary as the virus. Their mindset is better off dead than dead broke. Don't argue with it, accept it as their mindset. They have every bit the right to that mindset that you do. On the other hand, the mindset is, it doesn't matter if you're poor if you're dead. This is the less risk averse people who say, we'll straighten it out later. I (and it sounds like you) fall into this category. But to be fair Mac, I make a good living and can work from home. I might have a different opinion if the rent was due and I was out of bread, milk and cheese. These people are of the mindset that death rates among people under 65 are much lower. They are willing to take the risk to save their lively hood and business. It isn't "wrong" per say, its just different. Convoluted, yes. but everyone's priorities are subject to their situation. gotta think 3rd level on this.

Army

West side burbs north of I-20. Dallas. I'll give em a shout.

So I'm looking to get HVAC replaced in my house. I've done my research and I know the system I want. Having trouble getting the big boys to want to install a product they don't have an exclusive relationship with. Those products cost an arm and a leg. Anybody know an independent HVAC guy, licensed who'd like to install something I have delivered? Going with a Bosch Bova IDS 2.0, 5 ton system. Gonna need a bit done but I needa guy.

and you made fun of Trump when you said he wanted to buy Greenland....see it was all a business ploy...conspiracies I say, conspiracies. Okay I kid...nobody go off on this.