thecampster

When Dennis figures it all out and becomes a complete point guard, people will look back at this thread and wonder why they were appreciating the old Dennis. His potential is so off the chart, his approach and bbiq is all that is holding him back right now. I am waiting impatiently.

Okay, lets play your game. So your list of trade opportunities for a player averaging 13.6 points, 4.6 boards at 19 million are? Better yet. Assuming the Rockets find a trade partner for Anderson and take back $0 in salary (which is what you are saying), they then have less than $29 million to spend after cap holds for the 2 empty roster spots and assuming they renounce all cap holds. So yes, in the fantasy land that they can offload a $19 million + salary for a player averaging 13/5 as a top 3 option in a run and gun team to a team with the cap space to absorb him. Yes, they could offer around $95 million for 3 years. You win.

See...this is what I am talking about. http://hoopshype.com/salaries/houston_rockets/ Houston already has $89 million committed next year. Assuming they renounced every free agent, they have $12 million to offer. you can't just throw 30 million around. There are rules.

So ISOJOE, your post does give us an opportunity to rehash why maxing Millsap is a terrible move. I've gone over this at length in other posts but there is no contender team with enough money to max Millsap. Boston doesn't actually have that cap space and GS doesn't either. It is ghost space because they would have to renounce their own free agents (most of which are going to be resigned) to have the space. So no team in the top 16 can afford Sap except us. None of them can even afford $25mil/season. There are a couple of bottom dwellers who can afford the max. If Millsap wants to go suck for 7 million more starting per season...I accept that...its stupid if he values winning, but go figure. Also, when you take into account the favorable tax situation in Atlanta vs other cities there is pretty much no one who will offer more than $25 million who is worth it. That said, the only way we get that space is if Millsap signs elsewhere. If he signs elsewhere (and only after the deal is done) we would have 38 million in cap space before any deals. That doesn't include the cost of resigning Hardaway (probably $12 million starting....$9 million difference), our cap holds or our 1st round pick's salary. We can't do anything fancy without trading away Bazemore and either not taking back salary or giving away draft picks to take back a better player/fit.

Holy crap, I beat you for once.

Okay, let me now destroy this. Salaries involved. Howard $23.5 mil Millsap $30+ mil Melo $26 mil Lee 12 mil Hardaway QO - $3.3 mil Prince - $2.5 mil Bembry $2 mil Delaney - $2.5 mil 1st round pick $1.9 mil All numbers have been rounded for simplicity. This is 9 players for a total of $103.7 million (over the cap). Now this doesn't address the point guard you are going to sign for 8 to $15 million (which you can't do because you are over the cap). Nor does it address the 5 other vet minimum or 2nd round level talent to fill out the roster. Doesn't address Moose and doesn't take into account the need to waive Dunleavy (team option). With this trade package, you can't afford any point guard in your list. You can't even afford a 2 piece and a biscuit. This isn't NBA2K17. You can't just randomly trade. There are salary considerations to think through. For starters the difference between the salaries of the 2 teams traded salaries is more than $5 million different. For teams over the cap (New York and us post trade) you can't be more than $5 million apart on this much salary. Additionally, the trade doesn't take into account cap holds which must be dealt with for league approval. The base minimum holds (not considering F/A player salaries) puts the team over the cap.

I had a serious WTF moment when I read that.

One small aftermath of the trade.... http://articles.latimes.com/1994-11-08/sports/sp-59982_1_grant-long Those around at the time probably remember that Willis' holdout was as much about extending his contract as it was about him being bitter over the Nique trade.

You may find this crazy but I am actually going to disagree with you for once. You get rid of an aging Korver, an aging Steve Smith, an aging Joe Johnson. All of these were great Hawks but none of these were the brand of the franchise. Wilkins was born a Hawk, he went to College in Athens. He began his career as a Hawk and should have retired having never played for anyone else. This is exactly what we are talking about as having no credibility with players in the league. When you trade away Joe Johnson to a good Nets rebuild, players respect and understand that. When you send Korver to Cleveland for a chance at a ring, other players think you are classy. When you do the face of your franchise for 10+ years dirty in his best chance to ever win a ring, players stand up and notice. It is one of the many reasons we couldn't sign a free agent worth dirt for years after. In his "Aging" year. Dominique put up 24.4 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.3 spg. I dare say if the Hawks had a player putting up those numbers at the small forward position this year we would be in the finals. If the Hawks could sign a player with that stat line to a max contract in this off-season, it would take them 4 seconds to print the contract and find him a gold pen to sign with. For comparison, same position, Paul George's stat line this year was 23.7 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 3.3 apg, 1.6 spg. And I am betting you would give Paul George the max to sign here and let Paul walk. That stat line by Nique was "bad" by his standards and yet, he was playing the best defense of his career (main reason for the Hawks record...Nique improved defensively). It was a travesty and is indefensible. Dominique wasn't just any aging player. He was the most iconic member of your franchise ever. Even Pistol Pete spent the last 6 years of his career in other places. What the Hawks did at that time amounted to treason. You know I love you man and agree with you 90% of the time. But you are wrong on this, there is no excuse for trading the most iconic player in the team's history in the middle of a possible championship run.

You lost me at oral. tee hee hee!!!

The spurs did not tank to get Duncan. David Robinson had a season ending injury and that tanked their season. You give me any team then add Robinson and Duncan the next year and they're going to be top 4. http://www.nytimes.com/1996/12/25/sports/spurs-robinson-breaks-his-foot.html

This!

It is easier to draft better when you draft higher. But there is so much focus on "finding the right coach" and no where near enough money spent on player identification. Irregardless of this fact, finding talent in the draft = lower salaries, which then leaves room to sign the right free agents. This happened when a young Hawks team was able to sign Joe Johnson and then add Mike Bibby. I side with Sothron because his argument centers on the fact that you get better in the draft and complete your team in Free Agency...not the reverse. Last thought. I was alive and lived in the Chicagoland area during the rise of Jordan. They used Doug Collins to build that team (superior talent evaluator) and then put Jackson in charge for the system. The Hawks need a Collins type to bring in the right talent before bringing in a Bud type.

Yes but he was picked before our pick.

In 1994, the team was 36-16 (60 win pace) before trading Dominique Wilkins away. They went 20-10 without him (56-26 overall). There were a few reasons for the trade. The team started the season 1-4 before reeling off 14 straight wins and 23 of the next 26 (24-7 record overall). Over the next 21 games they were a pedestrian 12-9 including a 3-5 stretch right before the trade (mostly due to nagging injuries to key players). Team execs believed the league had figured them out and believed the team had a chemistry problem. The underlying reasons for the trade was Nique's age and he was earning a team leading 3.5 million per season (I know...you can laugh now). Dominique was scoring 25+ ppg for the year and was having one of his better defensive seasons (early in his career he was a bad defender) but had a weak couple of games during the 3-5 slump. Trading Nique was a pure and simple salary dump to get a younger player who put up big numbers in Phoenix's run and gun offense. Manning went on to score 15/game with the Hawks, never fit well with the team and was generally disliked by his teammates. The trade was the defining moment to a lost opportunity. It was their best chance at a title. They matched up favorably with Houston and Chicago that year, but the trade killed the team. Kevin Willis (the team's second leading scorer at 19/game and arguably its best all around player) was devastated.

Not exactly correct on Boston. It isn't like it used to be. If they signed Sap for 26 million (which is all they'll have under the cap after their draft pick), it would work for 1 year. However when their 4 players come up for contracts plus the built in raises for their other players, it is going to balloon their number about $25 million. Once you go over the cap and over the LT, it severely limits your ability to pull off subsequent moves. Boston would be setting their 8 man rotation but the back-end of their roster would be pure minimum salary garbage. 1 injury to Thomas, Horford, etc would severely hamper them. They would not be deep at all.

The last 6 drafts....where the Hawks drafted and a list of players drafted after them they could have had. 2010 - 24th - Damion Jones (traded) Available - Hassan Whiteside (33rd Sacramento), Lance Stephenson (40 Indiana). 2011 - 18th - Chris Singleton (Traded to Washington), 48th - Keith Benson Available - Kenneth Faried (22), Nicolai Mirotic (23), Marshon Brooks (25), Jimmy Butler (30) (ouch), Chandler Parsons (38), Isaiah Thomas (60) (ouch). 2012 - 23rd - John Jenkins, 43rd - Mike Scott Available - Miles Plumlee (26), Festus Ezeli (30), Jay Crowder (34), Draymond Green (35)(double ouch) 2013 - 17th Dennis Schröder, 18 - Traded to Dallas, 44 - Mike Muscala, 47 traded to Utah, 50 traded to Miami. Available - Tim Hardaway Jr. (24) 2014 - 15 - Adreian Payne, 43 - Walter Tavares, 48 - Lamar Patterson Available - Bogdan Bogdanovic (27) 2015 - 15 - Kelly Oubre Jr. (Traded to Washingon), 19 Jerian Grant (traded to New York), 50 Marcus Eriksson, 59 - Dimitrios Agravanis. Available - Bobby Portis (22) 2016 - 12 - Taurean Prince, 21 - DeAndre Bembry, 44 - Isaia Cordinier, 54 Kay Felder (traded to Cleveland), Available - Paul Zipser (48) Okay so why this list. Lets have some fun and build a team from just the last 6 years the Hawks could have had. Current Hawks players are okay to use, players traded away and players missed. You can only add 1 player per draft slot in which he could have been taken. So lets redraft it. 2010 - Hassan Whitesite 2011 - Jimmy Butler, Isaiah Thomas (yes we could have had both. 2012 - Draymond Green 2013 - Dennis Schröder, Mike Muscala 2014 - Bogdan Bogdanovic, Waltar Tavares, Lamar Patterson 2015 - Kelly Oubre Jr, Jerian Grant 2016 - Taurean Prince, Deandry Bembry Lineup - PG - Isaiah Thomas, Dennis Schröder, Grant SG - Jimmy Butler, Bembry, Patterson SF - Taurean Prince, Oubre Jr. PF - Draymond Green, Bogdanovic C - Hassan Whiteside, Muscala, Tavares I think I'm taken Sothron's side here (again). Drafting, talent recognition, player development. There are 2 roster spots open FYI. A couple Hawks can't be on this roster (like Teague (Prince deal)) but you can add back in any 2 Hawks signed in the last 5 years that weren't traded away for draft picks. For example, salary with this young team would have been young enough to resign Carroll and Al or to keep Paul this year. I dare say a starting 5 of Thomas, Butler, Prince, Green, and Whiteside would look pretty darn nice next year.

#1 requirement of our next GM is assembling a coaching staff that is dedicated to player development. I want guys who will work with young players in the off-season on the small parts of their game that affect winning and losing. Free throw shooting coaches, foot work coaches, classes on positioning/filtering/nutrition. Some of the things I have heard about young assets on teams has made me do double takes. When I heard Dwight this year say he had a 10,000 calorie candy bar habit at one point in his youth or the issues Mike Scott had. I firmly believe that organizations do not portray the message to new players that they have their best interest at heart. For most of these players, they are fundamentals poor and lacking discipline. A coaching staff that can relate to the Jared Sullingers of the world is how San Antonio built championships. They took other peoples' trash and made it their treasure. I am not talking about what we did with Demarre....I am talking about no wasted years from rookies. A program that explains to rookies day one what being a pro is. That we draft people and 2 weeks later they are playing and starring in summer league is idiotic to me. I've never worked for a company that didn't have an extensive training program no matter what skill I brought in. A GM that understands the dangers young players face from friends, women, diet, discipline and self could go a long way. In short, I want an organization that cares about the whole player.

I would give my left shoe for Taurean to work with Joe Johnson in the off-season to improve his isolation offense. I would allow a small monthly auto deduct from my paycheck for him to get 3 months of ball-handling instruction and I'd put myself on the kidney donor list if someone would teach him stop, pump fake and up and under on his drives.

Yes we can sign and trade him which is Sap's best option right now. There are no top level teams with real cap room this off-season. Boston has room, but that keeps them from signing people in the next off-season when 4 of their rotation players are all do raises. Boston signing Sap = Luxury tax the following year. GS has room but has to sign their own FA including Curry. There are no top 12 teams with the cap room to sign Paul. A sign and trade would allow a select group of teams to shed salary enough to acquire Paul to compete (say Chicago, OKC, Memphis, etc). The problem with the "sign and trade" option is that most teams would like picks included in the bounty for facilitating the sign n trade. The Hawks, already have 10 picks in 3 years. We are close to having too many draft assets. So any "sign and trade" with the Hawks would really need to be players for player and that would require another team sending us a shooter/backup point. We can't package anything with the signed player so it can't be used to drop other salary. Just to jump back on this who is getting Millsap. The cap next year is a projected 101 million (or 103 depending on who you read). Millsap's max contract for another team next year is $35,700,000. http://hoopshype.com/salaries/ So if you want to know who can afford Sap at the max next year, take a look at the teams under (101-35.7=) 65.3 million or if you are like me and believe Sap will get around $25 million per teams under 75.3 million. The click each team and look at which of their F/A came off the books this year and need to be signed. Re-add that number and check again for how much they can get. Then look at the remaining teams at their F/A situation the following situation and see if signing Sap would impeded the signing of their own F/A next year (see Isaiah Thomas in Boston for example) and you'll see the list is almost non-existent. Sap is not getting 35 next year. Sap is getting $25+ but only from a small, select group of teams.

2nd round picks are trade bait to teams with cap woes. Think before you post.

Except for already having 10 draft picks in the next 3 years to work with...except for that.

Ressler is not paying 30 million to keep Millsap and there are only a couple of teams with the space to sign him for more than $25. Philly, Sacramento, Phoenix, Brooklyn, Minny, Denver. That's pretty much it. Nobody else has more than $25 million. For Sactown it means no Rudy Gay. Others in that list would have to make similar hard choices.

Last point, Boston was built well and has first pick...blah blah. Boston's salary situation in 2017/18 is good because Amir Johnson and Jonas Jerebko come off the books to the tune of $17 million. That number doesn't include the cost of retaining Olynyk who is only rated at his qualifying offer of 4.3 million and will get closer to $12 and Gerald Green who will have to be replaced. million. However, Boston must also prepare for 2018/19 when Bradley, Thomas, Zeller, Smart are all do for salary. Boston has to think carefully about what they do this year because they would need $30 million more in salary to retain all 4 of those players. So in short, Boston doesn't really have $30 million in cap room this year and will have to make tough decisions on 3 real contributors. that will eat into that money and that will need to me moderate as 1/2 their team comes up for new contracts after next year.

Here is the scary thing about the picks and cap hell. There are going to be teams in the next few years that overspent the first year of the cap going up and won't even be able to afford their first round picks. There are going to be teams selling those picks for future firsts. With 20 million now between cap and LT, cap hell is going to be hard to get to.