thecampster

I posted a numbers analysis in a thread about 10 days ago. It basically went like this. The Hawks lost 26 games last year. In games they scored 91 or more points they were 38-4. In games they scored 90 or less points they were 2 and 22. 91 points is not a lot of points when you think about it. In almost all of those games, the bench struggled. Bench struggled, we lost. fairly simple metric. So we give up Joe and Marvin as starters and Zaza moves back to the bench. We replace them in the starting lineup with Morrow, Horford, Harris. We lose Hinrich, Green, Pargo, Collins off the bench and replace them with Zaza, Korver, Jenkins, Petro, Williams, Scott. Scoring off the bench should be much improved. Starters should be about the same (Al for Joe etc). Of course, who starts isn't really an issue per my example.

So I was using Dolfan's concept that we could execute 2 trades for Dwight to move some of the recently acquire salary to take back the bad contracts.JRich seems to be the one they want gone while we're panicked about losing Horford and Zaza meaning Dwight is the only starting caliber center on the team.So 2 trades - Dwight + Duhon forHorford + Teague + snt Willie Green (picks). JRich forJordan Farmar (to be waived by Orlando).This works FYI. Takes back 2 of their bad contracts...gives us the backup point guard. Gives us 13 players. Puts us just up to the LT. We can keep Zaza.

In fairness I forgot about Willie Green who contributed more.

In the offseason, we dumped these 8 players:JJMarvinHinrichCollinsDampStackMcGradyVladTotal 40.2 millionContribution last year:Minutes - 7120Points - 2666Assists - 627Rebounds - 1000 (yes...even).We took in these 8 players - 2 of which are rookies and contributed nothing to last year's stats:HarrisMorrowWilliams, LWilliams, JPetroStephensonJenkinsScottTotal this year: 27 millioncontribution last year:7574 minutes (they played 454 more minutes)3013 points (scoring 347 more points) (better pp/minute)695 assists (68 more assists) (better average per minute again)875 rebounds (125 less rebounds but not suprising since it was guard heavy)I'm feeling much better about the trades.Save 13 million dollarsHarris, Williams, L, Morrow essentially replace JJ, Hinrich, Marvin and they scored 400 more points last year. Lose a JJ, get 400 more points production over the other 3 and save 13 million and get Horf back. Looks good on the surface.

And just so you know...it could be way, way worse. The Nets now have 54-55 million committed this year to just 4 players. Deron, JJ, Wallace, Lopez. Those 4 will take the entire cap in a few years with JJ and Wallace on the decline.

Current salaries for 2013 Horford - 12 million Jordan Williams - team option - $884,293 Jeff Teague - Qualifying offer - $3,469,566 John Jenkins - about 1.1 million Lou Williams - not sure - about 5 million That's all I think and assuming no changes about 22.5 million plus holds (there will be bunches of em). You still have to decide on Josh at that point and have about 35.5 million. A little less than 17 million per superstar. Then fill it out with junk.

As currently constructed I agree with Josh at SF, Horf at PF and Zaza. But I really think Teague and Horf are gone. I think we are going to find a way to bring Dwight here and he will be packaged with either Richardson or Duhon. I think Williams is here as an emergency 1, backup at the 2. I think Jenkins starts if you have Dwight, Morrow starts if you don't (it's a defense thing). Teague's position in the lineup is conditional on Harris still being here on opening night.

Tim Bontemps: There isn't a classier guy in the league than @Anthony Morrow ... best of luck in Atlanta. Twitter Atlanta Hawks, Anthony Morrow | share When things like this are said about our new players, I get a warm fuzzy. I like trading for local guys and good guys. When they come in the same package, it just makes me want to root for him that much more.

and I love the badge. Not as good as the g-string one but...well...you know.

Okay..here I go muddying things.Signings are the easiest thing to approve. SNT next. Multiplayer trades, next. Cap consideration trades next. Multi team next...My guess is they got simple business out of the way at the league offices first. JJ trade was a little more confusing as it had a SNT, multiple player and cap considerations.

http://www.hoopsworl...ba-what-changes That 'change' is not listed, nor have I seen it on multiple sites. Coon says at the top that it reflects the new changes.

unfortunately in our situation you can't though...see above. You can't combine them. You can only send them out...one player at a time.

Reading what I just posted. The salaries were used to "aggregate" (allow NJ to take on JJ if I'm reading that right). Meaning they are all "bound". So you have to keep them together for 60 days. Unless you are not over the cap when you receive them. Then the rules don't apply. That's how I read it from the rules I just posted.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q97 Dolfan, see bolded below. 97. When can't a player be traded? Can players be given "no-trade" clauses in their contracts? A "no-trade" clause prevents the team from trading the player without the player's consent. A no-trade clause can be negotiated into a new contract1 if the player has been in the NBA for at least eight seasons, and has played for the team with which he is signing for at least four seasons. They don't have to be the four most recent seasons -- for example, Horace Grant received a no-trade clause from Orlando when he signed with them in 2001. He had played for Orlando for the requisite four seasons, but had played for Seattle and Los Angeles in the interim. Very few players actually have one of these negotiated no-trade provisions (currently only Kobe Bryant and Dirk Nowitzki have them). There are two additional circumstances in which a trade requires the player's consent: [*]When the player is playing under a one-year contract (excluding any option year) and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the season. This includes first round draft picks following their fourth (option) season, who accept their team's qualifying offer for their fifth season. When the player consents to such a trade, his Larry Bird/Early Bird rights are not traded with him. The player becomes a Non-Bird free agent instead2. [*]For one year after exercising the right of first refusal to keep a restricted free agent. The player must consent to a trade to any team, although he cannot be traded to the team that signed him to the offer sheet. In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances: [*]For two months after receiving the player in trade, if the trade aggregates the player's salary with the salaries of other players. However, the team is free to trade the player immediately, either by himself or without aggregating his salary with other salaries. This restriction applies only to teams over the salary cap. (Also see question number 85.) [*]When the trade deadline has passed. Teams are free to make trades again once their season has ended, but cannot trade players whose contracts are ending or could end due to an option or ETO. [*]For three months or until December 15 of that season (whichever is later) after signing a contract as a free agent or matching an offer sheet to a restricted free agent. This obviously does not apply to the trade completing a sign-and-trade transaction (see question number 88). [*]For three months or until January 15 of that season (whichever is later) after re-signing a free agent with Larry Bird or Early Bird rights, if the team is over the cap, the player's prior salary was above the minimum, and he receives a raise greater than 20%. [*]For 30 days after signing as a draft pick. [*]For six months after signing a player to an extension that is over the limit (in terms of years, salary or raises) for an extend-and-trade transaction (see question number 91). [*]After claiming a player on waivers, for 30 days if the player was claimed during the season. If the player was claimed during the offseason, he cannot be traded until the 30th day of the following season. [*]A team cannot reacquire a player they traded away during that season (a season being July 1 - June 30). If he is waived by his new team, then he cannot re-sign with his original team until the one-year anniversary of the trade, or until the July 1 following the end of his contract, whichever comes first. However, if a team trades a player's draft rights, they can reacquire the player during the same season. [*]Until the following July 1 if the player was acquired through the Amnesty provision via a secondary waiver claim (see question number 67). [*]When a player is waived through the Amnesty provision he cannot be reacquired for the length of the terminated contract. [*]A team cannot acquire players during a season when they do not have room on their 15-man roster, even if they intend to waive an incoming player immediately. For example, a team with 14 players cannot trade one player for three, while simultaneously waiving an incoming player to remain at 15 players3. 1 A no-trade clause cannot be negotiated into an extension, unless player's existing contract or extension already contained a no-trade clause. 2 When there is an option year involved, they may be able to get around this restriction by invoking the option prior to the trade. 3 It is possible to work around this restriction by waiving a current player, executing the trade, waiving one of the incoming players, and then re-signing the original player. 88. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded? There is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under this rule the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract stipulating that the contract is null and void if the trade to the specific team is not completed within 48 hours. To qualify for a sign-and-trade, all of the following must be true: [*]The player must re-sign with his prior team -- a team cannot include another team's free agent in a sign-and-trade. [*]The player must finish the preceding season with that team (deals are no longer allowed that sign-and-trade players who are out of the league, such as the sign-and-trade that sent Keith Van Horn from Dallas to New Jersey as part of the Jason Kidd trade in 2008). [*]The player cannot be a restricted free agent who has signed an offer sheet with another team (see question number 43). [*]Starting in 2013-14, the team receiving the player cannot be above the "apron" ($4 million above the tax level) after the trade1. [*]Starting in 2013-14, the team cannot receive a player in a sign-and-trade if they have used the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception (see question number 25) that season. [*]The trade must be completed prior to the first game of the regular season (sign-and-trades are not allowed once the season begins). [*]The player cannot be signed using the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, or any exception that cannot be used to offer a three-year contract (see question number 25). A sign-and-trade deal can be made with a free agent who has been renounced, as long as all the above criteria are met. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for at least three seasons (not including any option year) and no longer than four seasons. The first year of the contract must be fully guaranteed, but the remaining seasons can be non-guaranteed. The combination of a three-year minimum with a one-year guarantee ensures that the player's new team cannot acquire the player's Bird rights any sooner than if they had signed him directly (if they wanted to re-sign him in less than three years they would first have to waive him, and lose any Bird rights -- see question number 32). The starting salary in a contract signed for a sign-and-trade may be any amount up to the player's maximum, however if the player meets the 5th Year 30% Max criteria (see question number 17) he cannot receive a salary greater than 25% of the cap. Raises are limited to 4.5%. The player may be considered to have a lower outgoing salary for trade purposes, which can complicate the trade (see question number 86). If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. Any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the team's annual limit for cash included in a trade (see question number 94), which in effect limits the portion of the signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team. If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade. See question number 92 for more information on how long a team must wait before they can trade a player. 1 A different team salary definition is used for determining whether a team is above or below the apron -- see question number 14 for details. Starting in 2013-14 if a team acquires a player in a sign-and-trade, the apron ($4 million above the tax line) effectively becomes a hard cap for the remainder of that season.

Maybe I'm not being clear. In the event you do package those players because its the offseason and they couldn't technically play for anyone for 60 days anyway (which is the loophole I'm assuming), you couldn't consummate that deal until deal 1 is finished. Deal 2 would need to fit CBA and Salary rules the criteria of which can't be established until deal 1 is finished. Until Stephenson's deal is done, the Hawk's salary is not set and the pieces coming in the other deal are only possibly ours. For example, let's say Petro gets here and fails the physical. Deal 1 is off meaning you don't have assets for deal 2. Can't finish deal 2 until deal 1 is complete...totally complete.

The Lou signing tells me something else. Teague is definately in play and Harris is the starting PG on opening night.

See, I've heard that before but not seen it in practice because of the "sign and trade" in the deal can't be official until tonight. That's why our deal isn't done so until that deal is done, they aren't our assets to trade. We could "framework" a deal but we couldn't execute it. If there were no signings in the deal...absolutely possible theorectically. But assume for a second Stephenson changed his mind before midnight and said....nah...going to Cali. You wouldn't have the original assets to complete the first deal. None of these free agent deals are done right now. This again is why I think there is no official word from the Hawks from office about the Dwight deal. They need to finish the NJ deal so there is no snafu with deal 1.

??? I thought that was me.....Hey wait a minute...you took away my badge???

FYI - Williams, Morrow, Smith all Atlanta high school products

Our only immediate, packageable, tradeable assets after the trades go down tomorrow are: Horford (12), Smith (13.2), Teague (2.4), Zaza (5.3), draft picks and every unsigned player that was on our roster at the end of last year (vlad, Damp, Twin, Pargo, Green, etc) in a sign and trade. The reason I asked my question is Howard makes 19.3 million, we are over the cap so we can only take back 150% of the salary we give up. Meaning we have to send Orlando a bare minimum of 12.76 million in salary. So if the deal doesn't involve Horford, we must package Zaza, Teague and 5 million dollars worth of unsigned players in sign and trades. This is why Horford has to be traded. Also, if they package JRich....we need to come up with another 3.8 million ish to send to them over the 12.76.

Here is what logic is telling me. 1. Any deal won't be consumated until tomorrow anyway as most of the assets have to settle on any team trading for Dwight. 2. You also won't hear what trade pieces Atlanta is using because they are offering Houston's pick/picks to Orlando and the 1st rounder is a contigent piece in the Joe deal. 3. You also won't hear what trade pieces the Hawks are offering because that would change negotiations between other players and the Hawks/other teams in F/A. Meaning you don't want other teams to have the upper hand in negotiating with other agents. They'll have to scramble after the Dwight deal to get their rosters filled. This is right out of San Antonio's playbook of playing everything close to the vest. 4. The tidbit about Addidas and Howard is very true. It is Addidas pushing this deal to Brooklyn. Here is why. What follows is a list of the recent or current Addidas endorsement contracts and what city they play in. Notice the city missing from the list. Josh Smith - Atlanta Deshawn Stevenson - Atl Jordan Farmar - Atlanta (none) Tracy McGrady - Atlanta (none) Derrick Rose - Chicago Antwan Jamison - Cle Rodney Stuckey - Detroit Corey Maggette - Detroit David Beckham - L.A Chauncey Billups - L.A. Tony Allen - Memphis Mario Chalmers - Miami Luc Mbah A Moute -Milwaukee Anthony Randolf - Minneapolis Michael Beasley - Minneapolis Kendrick Perkins - OKC Dwight Howard - Orlando (Brooklyn) Tim Duncan - San Antonio Nene - Washington - Washington Adam Morrison - LMAO

I'm trying to figure this out.Harris - 9.5Teague - 2.4Zaza - 5.3Smith - 13.2Horford - 12Jenkins - 1Ivan - 1Lou - 5 (ish)Morrow - 4Petro - 3.5Stephenson - 2.5Williams - .75______I've got 60.15 plus holds? Maybe less depending on Stephenson and Lou's deals. So for the purposes of a Dwight trade...we are at the 150% marker or is it off of last years LT of 125% (I think we ended up in the LT last year, real close).Also, does Farmar's buyout count against the cap/LT

I need a calculation from Hawksfanatic on this but after consummating the JJ and Marvin trades tomorrow, signing of Hinrich elsewhere, are we under the cap and by how much?

3 days till the Hawks summer team plays in Vegas and you'll get a taste of what Jenkins is and is not.

I was thinking something very similar How is that > Zaza, Teague, (resigned Green), 2013 (2 firsts), 2015 first? How is that > Teague, Horford, 2013 (2 firsts)?