thecampster

So you are predicting that Howard and Deron will be on the same team via trade, or will leave the team they are traded to if not moved to the same team, or will stay put in NJ or Orlando. Interesting theory to say the least.I think Deron is Dallas bound and no way Cuban can get Howard this season if he locks up Deron and keeps Dirk.

I didn't respond to this and so I wanted to now. Deron has a player option for this year for about 17.8 million I believe. Assuming he wants to play with Dwight, it would make sense that he exercises his option to be in Brooklyn for the upcoming season.Now there is a winning model as old as time in the NBA. Elite 2 way Center + drive and dish PG + either knock down shooter or off the ball big man. So in that scenarioDeron + Dwight + either a great shooter or Josh Smith = championship.Why this works? This is all about "the late double". In the NBA, the main defensive weapon of every team is a late trap/double. Teams use this to perfection against us with JJ. So a point guard that attacks the rim with eyes up so he can dish keeps the ball moving and negates the double at the 3 point line. You can't leave your man to double of the point guard will beat you to the spot and hit the man you just left. You can't foul him because he'll hit his free throws. The low post double is negated by the center pushing the ball out to the knock down shooter or hitting the opposing big man moving to the basket (ie..the definition of both Josh and Al). This negates doubling the center. Dwight never had either the PG or the low post big man in Orlando. He had the shooters but too many of them....not enough ball handling threat. The shooter or off the ball big man are the outlet, the "option".Deron and Dwight are not stupid and have been moving toward this for years. Both will be free agents after this year. The options are 4 fold.Option 1: Deron stays with Brooklyn and Dwight signs there. Their cap situation portends this to be the plan.Option 2: Dwight stays in Orlando and Deron signs there. Their cap situation is not condusive and would require trades.Option 3: Both men sign with a new team with lots of cap room in the 13/14 season.Option 4: A team trades for either Dwight or Deron and than makes a play for the other the following year. This is the only possibility for Atlanta and would require trading away JJ, Al, Marvin....Teague becomes expendable with Deron here. Those 4 salaries are slightly higher than Dwight/Deron would require. It would require trading for both as you have to give away to get and to negate the cap holds.Now messing this up are 2 things. First, Boston's aging core which will eventually clear up room. Second, Josh Smith's contract ends at the same time creating an opportunity to put the perfect player with Deron/Dwight, an off the ball cutting, finishing big man. Additionally, Horford is signed reasonably and could easily fill the same role. Deron/Dwight with either Al/Josh would be hard to beat.Now I use us as an example not because I think that is what will happen, but to show what is possible for Deron/Dwight. If they go/sign together and get one of the other formula players, they are NBA contenders every year in the same mold as Parker/Duncan/Ginobilli.

Two economists are walking down the street. There is a $100 bill laying on the sidewalk, so one economist says to the other "hey is that a $100 bill?" The other looks at him and proudly proclaims "certainly not, if there was a $100 bill on the ground someone would have picked it up by now."I think Diesel makes a fine point. This lack of discipline with coaches trickles down to the players. Josh should not be shooting long jumpers and we need a coach to stop him from doing this. Doing something right should not allow you to do something wrong.

A better example of your argument would be:3 wall street economists talking in the back of a limo Diesel is driving. One economist says, I'm thinking of investing in fund x, it's a fund comprised of 12 stocks of which 10 have historically produced at a high level and 2 have had mixed to poor returns. The 3 economists determine that the fund is reasonably priced and the overall production is in the top 10% of funds managed. They decided to recommend the fund because of the value and overlook the 2 poorly performing stocks. Diesel hearing this goes around to all of his friends and tell them to never listen to the economists again because he heard them recommending a fund with 2 bad stocks in it. He recorded their conversation and plays it for his friends. One of them says, "Dude, they point out the overall value and the performance of the 10". Diesel responds, "There are 2 losers in the fund, they're dead wrong".Now the friends debate among themselves and because they are familiar with the 2 dog stocks yell "Listen to Diesel, he knows best" and ignore the advice of the wall street economists. This isn't "Trading Places".

Both Kenny and LD is wrong.

It sets the wrong example to let the kid leave his shoes everywhere and eat pizza on the bed. For Children, you have to set boundaries. Once set, you have to be willing to enforce them.

Put Josh on the Detroit Bad Boys team... With all of his ability and talent. Do you think that lockerroom put up with his shit?? I'll tell you exactly what would happen. Mahorn and Lambeer would have pinned him into a corner while Isiah and the rest continued whacking him until he played the game right. That's the problem with children and basketball players today. You tell them all that it's their world to rule and they feel like they don't have to pay dues. They feel like they are entitled to the best of everything. They feel like that they're not supposed to take direction. You allow Josh to do this and you release the floodgates and send the message that the coach is not in charge.. Phil Jackson, Jerry Sloan, Mark Jackson, nor Popp would put up with this. Only the lowest paid coach in the game in the last year of his contract (every year) would put up with this.

Let me get this straight Diesel. Kenny Smith, the tv analyst, 10 year NBA vet and Larry Drew, the NBA head coach, 10 year assistant coach and 11 year NBA player are wrong and you are right?

You know, some of the hubris filled opinions of the members of this board get to be a bit much at times.

Mike Woodson, "I think there are a lot of teams that would like to have Josh".

It's been almost a month since Kevin Garnett and Atlanta Hawks co-owner Michael Gearon Jr. took some jabs at each other, but Garnett might not be over it. Garnett was interviewed by ESPN's Doris Burke after the Celtics' Game 5 win on Tuesday night, and among the questions Burke asked was what fuels the veteran after 17 years in the league. "The competition. The naysayers," Garnett responded, before turning to the camera. "The owners who talk too much. The people who don't think that a 36, 35-year old can do what I do. I take a lot of pride in...View the full article

Kevin Garnett says a lot of things.

We ran it more than any other play is what I meant in reference to AHF, exclusively was the wrong choice of words.Bibby was washed up by that time but it still was our most functional NBA play by a mile.

uh, no. We ran ISOJOE, ISOJamal more than anything else. We ran the curl plays at the top of the key more than PNR. We ran Bibby/Horf or Bibby Josh PNR or PNPop as the alt set when the curl wasn't working or to give the iso'ers a play off.This is why so many of us 2/3 years ago were screaming for the change to more pick and roll. It was highly effective.

Klay Thompson wouldn't be included in the trade. They like him as their SG.JJ for #7 and the bad contracts of Biedrens and RJ??

Although I would consider this, there is one thing stopping me. Both Beeno and RJ have Player options for 2013/2014. Marvin also has an option for that year. So effectively what you are doing is committing yourself for 27.5 million in 2013/14 in exchange for not having JJ's ridiculous contract the following 2 years. You had better be sure you are getting a stud at #7 with that risk. If all 3 players exercise their option (not sure why they wouldn't since none would get 7.5, 9 or 11 million from anyone else), you have spent your money for the Dwight, Deron sweepstakes and only Marvin could be amnestied from that group. What this means is you'll have at least $43 million in committed salaries that year and you still have to sign Smith that year. You need to be sure you can move Biedrins or RJ afterwards or this deal is of little benefit the following year.

Please, someone delete this thread before Michael Gearon sees it...

LOL - I was thinking something very similar.

I am positive I am not reading this right but are you saying we ran exclusively PnR (i.e., no iso or other sets) with Bibby or that we only ran PnR when Bibby was in the game or something else? I don't know what the word "exclusively" means here.

I think he conjoined two thoughts there. Thought one. We ran pick n roll with Bibby and that worked well, better than our iso and rotation sets.Thought two. We should find someone capable of running it all the time since it worked well in Bibby's limited use of it. Damn if only Bibby was the younger, quicker, better defensive Bibby of 5 years previous.

http://basketball.re...n_Small_Forwardhttp://www.sfgate.co...ed=rss.warriorsFirst, off this is an interesting team strategy to publicly state your personnel strategy. I can see several of these teams bidding for their pick(s).2nd, If Klay Thompson, 7th pick were included I'd have to do it. We'd move JJ to the 3 and play Klay at the 2. Then we look at C or Pf in the draft at 7 (or with a 7/23 trade up). 3rd, while rumors start to heat up, the Hawks ownership is too cheap to hold tryouts and doesn't (essentially) have a GM.W

Again, just thinking out loud here but JJ played better at SF than SG last year.

If Sund can get a PnR PG, a lot of the issues can be solved instantly.

+ a million on this. What people on this board aren't realizing is the defensive presence Marvin, Josh and Al bring on the floor. However, they are not shot creators. They can score and well but they are not going to manufacture offense for themselves. Joe however is not a facilitator. He is quite the opposite. The ball dies in his possession. There are teams where Joe would be a godsend. 5 years ago, he was that for us. But he is not that now. A facilitator and a knock down shooter would greatly help the offensive games of Pachulia, Horford, Smith and Williams.This is why I wish Teague were a few inches taller. He could work on his shot and be a great 2 guard and we could bring in a Kendall Marshall type. But you can't teach height.

1/2 of rebounding is system

I don't see how JJ is "perfect" for Cleveland other than he can't walk for many years. Regardless, there is NO WAY they give up the 4th overall pick for JJ. None. IMO a team that would want JJ badly enough to take his contract and give us a lottery pick would be a team "one player away" from jumping out of the lottery into the playoffs. IMO that's GS who I think already improved with the trade for Bogut. Portland would also be a team although I'm not certain they have the contracts to = JJ's salary and they would give up 11, not 6. I really see GS, Portland, Houston, and maybe Sacramento as the only lottery teams that would have any interest in JJ.

Add Joe to Kyrie Irving and you have a good back court. IrvingJJGeeJamisonVarejaoIs a nice starting 5. Contender, no but back in the playoffs...probably. They have a second 1st round pick (24) and an early 2nd round pick. They need to sell tickets and have salary room.

There should be no consideration of amnestying JJ, IMO.

That is very different than getting a lottery pick.

All this, however, is secondary to getting new owners who can set a direction for the franchise.

Exactly and like I said, Cleveland seems to be the perfect target to offload Joe's contract, get a high level pick and player in return.

That's the problem... Smith is not likely to resign. If he does resign it's because we gave him the max. He's not a max player. .. we'd hear the same things about Smoove that we have heard about JJ.

Moreover, your plan has a lot of projects involved. Players often look good in college and are nothing special in the nba.

JJ is one or two years from an 8 million dollar a year player. Mark my words, JJ will be our 3rd option in 2 years. Best to get better now. Plan for the long haul, not win now.

Bradley Beal can flat out shoot, the perfect complement for a draw and kick point guard.with Horford/Smith running pick n roll the SG double has to come and that leaves Beal in the corner for 3. It's Utah all over again. Beal and Marshall are ready right now.

That's the problem... Smith is not likely to resign. If he does resign it's because we gave him the max. He's not a max player. .. we'd hear the same things about Smoove that we have heard about JJ.Moreover, your plan has a lot of projects involved. Players often look good in college and are nothing special in the nba.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhaTKn8oFg8Marshall is no project. He is a point guard...true as can be.

Now moving forward with "the plan". I love Jeff Teague. But this isn't about liking a player. This is about "The Plan".If there was any way to move Teague, Marvin or Zaza to move up high enough in the draft for Kendall Marshall (14th should do it), you do it and don't look back. Ignore his defense, he is a legit pass first creator.If there is any way to move JJ for a player plus 6-10 and you can replace him with Brandon Beal who is a good shooting combo guard. Cleveland for Luke Walton and the 4th pick would work. Then with the 23rd pick, you pray Fab Melo is still there and you take him.Let's assume you move Teague to Phoenix for the 13th pick and draft Marshall. Move JJ to Cleveland for Walton, filler and the 4th pick. You then have.MarshallBealSmith/Marvin/WaltonHorford/IvanPachulia/Fab MeloIn committed Salaries you are still below the cap (about 51 million plus cap holds)..no where near the LT and only 4 spots to fill. That is a plan...You now have the point guard to run pick n roll, pick n pop with your 3 bigs, you have size and defense. Marvin and Walton would be expirings (Marvin does have a 7.5 player option)...you could resign Smith and make a run at quality free agents or trade for someone else's cap excess (a Marvin for a 14 million dollar player kind of a thing to get someone under the LT).Execute something like that and in 2013 Free Agents will take notice that you have a plan to win and are executing it.

I don't see how we forget to add Bibby into this trade. We act like all we traded was Crawford. We traded Bibby.. our starting PG. The reason we traded Bibby is because he was no longer getting it done. Hinrich was picked up for his defense and ability to play the PG. Let's be honest, without Hinrich we wouldn't have beaten the Magic. When Hinrich went down in that last game, it was a blessing and a curse. We found Teague... however, we still could have used Hinrich. So yes, it was a win now move. However, all people can see was what we lost... a volume shooter that looks good on a team that's going nowhere and an old PG who was holding us back with his lack of defense. Nobody can see what we gained.

We lost in essence 2 drafts picks for a "win now" mentality. For a series win over the Magic. It stings now but trading away pieces, bad drafting, offering excessive contracts, not re-up'ing pieces and making them test the market (ie..bad blood) consistently cost us. At the time I was all for acquiring Hinrich and still love Kirk....but the price was too steep. I'm man enough to admit I was wrong.

Diesel . . here is a GREAT ARTICLE written back when the Hawks traded Dikembe Mutumbo. It was a CNNSI.com article that talked about the Hawks bad decisions up until that point. It's a pretty good look at how this franchise literally messed up time after time, when a big decision had to be made

http://sportsillustr...itaintso_hawks/

And remember, this goes back to 2001. This doesn't even include

- trading the #3 pick ( which ended up being Pau Gasol ) for Shareef Abdur-Rahim

- drafting Marvin in 2005 instead of Chris Paul

- missing on the Shelden Williams pick

- re-signing Marvin and Bibby to contracts longer than what they should've been ( or at least have a team option in one of those years )

- signing JJ to a deal probably more than what was necessary. ( 6 yrs - 108 mill probably gets JJ )

- trading Jordan Crawford and the #19 pick ( which could've been Kenneth Faried ) for Kirk Hinrich

Now we're in a situation in which they MUST get this Josh Smith situation right. If they mess it up, the results could be catastrophic.

That one move there highlights the problem. The "win now" attitude pollutes all thinking toward winning. The idea of getting Hinrich was to win now. It was a good move, but making such a move requires making more moves down the road. Exercise good scouting with the 19th pick and you don't have to make a move later. The example is Josh Smith. Josh was a 17th pick, good judgement and good value at 17...much better than Chillz with the 6th in the same draft.

I'm not saying don't pull the trigger on a deal to win, but I am saying you can't be so hungry to win now that you sacrifice the future.

The same goes for mortgaging the present. I started this thread because of the "trade Josh for a pick" garbage. Honestly, I was suprised and relieved at those who almost unanimously understand the value in doing so with JJ would be.

If Hinrich brings back 19 + Jordan Crawford, JJ should bring back a decent player (better than Crawford) and 6-10. It is a combination of keeping Smith, enticing others, planning for the future. If you want to know what top tier free agents truly value, it is a team with a plan. You have a plan to compete...a solid plan...and free agents will look at you because marketing and money follow the plan.

Winning a championship in Miami as opposed to starring on a non championship team in NY/Chi trumps for marketability. Had they won the first year, every bad boy wannabee would have been wearing their gear.

Here is the problem with the "make a trade" concept. Although it is possible to score Deron or Howard through trade, It will require trading away Joe, Horford, Teague, Marvin to get those 2 plus at least 1 pick. The reason you must do that is because in order to keep 1, you have to get the other. Allowing them to play together with Josh and or Horford would give you a base to start with. Joe doesn't work because all 3 salaries together are too much.If you don't get both, then you won't keep the first. You need to go all in to keep either which means keeping both. Once you trade for one, the other team knows and will hold you ransom for the other.

No. Calderon is an ending contract..but even with that. What GOOD FA will want the Joe Johnson treatment.What makes a team attractive is how they treat their stars. Ever wonder why people want to go to Dallas? Cuban treat the stars well out there. Ever wonder why nobody wants to go to Toronto? Aside from the taxes look at how they have treated the stars. We are one of the worse. Look what we did to Nique. That's why nobody is quick to say... I'm going to Atlanta. Joe was the only star who ever wanted to be here. Many guys used us to get better contracts with who they wanted to be with but nobody wanted to be with us. Whatever we get has to be either the start of a long draft made reconstruction or a championship team.

What makes a team attractive is personal marketability....very little else. New York, Chicago, LA are major markets for self marketing. Don't be naive. Personal salary is less than what a player can make from endorsements, name recognition. This is what was so savvy about what the big 3 did in Miami. 20 million person state. Huge media blitz to cover it. Always the villain wherever they go. Huge endorsements. This is why they took just a bit less to sign there. This is also why Joe left Phoenix to come to Atlanta. The "star" gets more attention than the role player. This is also why Al wants a true center and a point guard to build around himself and why Josh keeps shooting. Be the star, build a personal brand. These guys have a very short window to accomplish that. The only reason it's about winning championships is because winning builds a brand.http://branddunk.com/2008/10/27/endorsement-profile-lebron-james/This was his endorsements vale at 23 -- $28 million.

Although I believe it will do minimal good. Sticky this please!

With all of the Josh for a lottery pick proposals on the board by a few posters, I thought I'd throw a curveball in there. Would you do the same with JJ?

For the most part, the question is if the Hawks offer Smoove a quality extension, will he resign with us?

Right now, he's making 13.2. I predict that 14 Million will be the start of a new contract via extension. If that's the case, then it puts him in the 85 Million over 5 years range.

That being the case, will he resign with our or would he turn us down?

Someone out there will max him. There are too many people that will need someone after next year. 14 million won't do it.