thecampster

Here is the problem with the "make a trade" concept. Although it is possible to score Deron or Howard through trade, It will require trading away Joe, Horford, Teague, Marvin to get those 2 plus at least 1 pick. The reason you must do that is because in order to keep 1, you have to get the other. Allowing them to play together with Josh and or Horford would give you a base to start with. Joe doesn't work because all 3 salaries together are too much.If you don't get both, then you won't keep the first. You need to go all in to keep either which means keeping both. Once you trade for one, the other team knows and will hold you ransom for the other.

What makes a team attractive is personal marketability....very little else. New York, Chicago, LA are major markets for self marketing. Don't be naive. Personal salary is less than what a player can make from endorsements, name recognition. This is what was so savvy about what the big 3 did in Miami. 20 million person state. Huge media blitz to cover it. Always the villain wherever they go. Huge endorsements. This is why they took just a bit less to sign there. This is also why Joe left Phoenix to come to Atlanta. The "star" gets more attention than the role player. This is also why Al wants a true center and a point guard to build around himself and why Josh keeps shooting. Be the star, build a personal brand. These guys have a very short window to accomplish that. The only reason it's about winning championships is because winning builds a brand.http://branddunk.com/2008/10/27/endorsement-profile-lebron-james/This was his endorsements vale at 23 -- $28 million.

Although I believe it will do minimal good. Sticky this please!

With all of the Josh for a lottery pick proposals on the board by a few posters, I thought I'd throw a curveball in there. Would you do the same with JJ?

Someone out there will max him. There are too many people that will need someone after next year. 14 million won't do it.

Gasol + Bynum + Kobe = 2nd round exit this year.You honestly believe that Joe + AL > Kobe + Bynum ...... Delusional

Keep Joe, Josh walks ... lottery bound. An aging Joe, little cap room and Horford out of position = 30 win season at best.Trade Joe, Josh walks ... options exist to afford a star to team with Horford/Teague.Trade Joe, Josh stays ... questions now surround what did we get back...are we better.There is only one option....Trade Joe.

But if you keep Joe, you can not sign Smith. It is as simple as that. Keep a 33 year old shooting guard whose production has declined steadily for years or sign a 28 year old in his prime. That's next year's decision. Trading Joe for 3 smaller pieces this year makes that decision a whole lot easier.Basically, the decision on Joe comes down like this. Joe plus 2 vet mins or 3 salaries that average 7 million. None of the 7 million players = Joe but when you factor in 3 players that can improve us at Center or point guard...then you have something. Here is an example. Joe and Marvin (or Zaza) to Detroit for Villanueva, Prince (or Stuckey), Gordon (future pick). These salaries are very similar, almost identical. None of the players I've mentioned are Joe quality. But this puts 1 or 2 extra players on our roster for the same salary. Every piece from Detroit is movable this year or next. This is not the only deal possible, but it is what you want to do if you are going to spread out Joe's salary, get a consistent bench and create a team that will keep Josh...attract other players. Don't do this type of a thing and Josh is gone anyway as Joe's increasing salary and Teague's coming payday eat up the cap.

my statement was going off of previous article posts...not solid math. The principle still holds and is worse. the point of my explanation was to simplify it for those that think...amnesty = signing Kobe and Dwight. Similar thought. The same principle applies for those saying....trade Josh for a draft pick. When you are as committed as we are and then get a top 5 pick. The relief is about 11 million. But that doesn't translate into 11 million in cap space...only 6+ million. It's lunacy.

This is why I laugh so hard at people saying "we're trading Smoove, amnesty Joe, Marvin, etc". Joe, Josh, Al, Marvin and Zaza together almost = the cap. So if you get rid of any of the 5, you have to get equal value back.You can't "trade" Josh and get back even close to equal numbers. It matters because you won't have room to sign anyone else.You can't "Amnesty" Joe or Marvin because you won't get back equal value signing a free agent. The agent you sign can only be about 2 million less than the player earns because he won't be ours and the signing puts us over the cap. So in Joe's case you can get 1 - 17 million player. Marvin's case 1 - 5 or 6 million dollar player. If I or others haven't been clear on this before, I hope this explains it. Amnesty Joe and you have to first convince a top tier free agent to come here. Second, he has to sign for 17 million and third, he has to bring more than JJ at either the point guard, center or shooting guard position. The only player out there like that is Dwight and he is no longer a free agent this year.No you could "trade" one of the big 6. Teague is too good of a deal with his tiny salary. Marvin won't bring back enough because any player who makes less than Marvin probably doesn't produce more (Marvin is very useful on defense). There is no 5 million dollar center out there that brings you back what Zaza does and at his age. A healthy Al is a bargain at 12 million and would bring back the best player for his salary in return but we can't afford to take on more salary so unless Al bring backs 2 players at 12-13 million, it's insanity to trade him. Josh's 13.2 million would bring back a better 2 players at 14 million but you aren't going to replace his numbers at the 2 need positions of point, center for his salary. But Joe's salary of 19.7 million could bring back 3 players (say 10 million, 6 million and 4-5 million) on a disgruntled team who would like someone who can sell tickets. You send Joe and Marvin or Joe and Zaza and you can now take someone else's bad fits. While keeping Teague, Al, Josh.As long as JJ's contract eats up 1/3 + of the cap, Josh will not be brought back next year and you will not get anything for him. He will walk.

Understanding the cap and LT, you get nothing for amnestying JJ. The Hawks have 61 million in salaries next year with JJ being owed just under 20 million. 41 million in committed salaries, cap 58 millionish. Yes you could amnesty JJ and then sign a 17 million dollar talent but you won't have any money afterwards for anything other than vet minimums and one mid-level exemption (simplfying it). Which is why I say moving JJ for contracts (plural) brings you back more options.

You amnesty someone with little to no value. That is not JJ. Joe is a good player, just not a superstar. The right move is to send Joe to someone will to send back 2-3 contracts then try to move them.

I think the problem is that people love offense and Josh is not a put the ball in the basket guy. He is a "helps others put the ball in the basket" guy. He is a "stops the other team from putting the ball in the basket guy". Those 2 things are just as important as scoring but highly, highly overlooked by the casual fan.This is also why Al is so valuable. Al can not get his own shot as well, but shoots a better percentage and is only marginably less than Josh in the other 2 facets. These 2 are off limits in my book, everyone else is a possibility

Sadly, thinking that "Josh" will go when he has no cap hit next year and the problem gets worse with JJ's salary and Teague's impending new salary is financial suicide. This would propel the team toward the lottery in the future. The only solution is moving JJ for 3 low-mid-level salary players to spread out the salary.True that Josh would yield more in return, but Josh's salary is more akin to a trade deadline deal and not an off-season deal. JJ for 3 average players creates more flexibility (think the Melo to NY deal).

Zaza, Marvin and our 1st works for Cousins/SalmonsNot enough to make it happen, but they aren't happy with either Salmon's (3 years left) play or Cousins' attitude. I'd be happy to make it this year's first and one in a few years.

Cousins or Lopez would greatly improve the team but only in a big front court.

Well I'd buy that but Josh average 4.8 assists in the series...1.3 higher than Joe.

Stockton was the master of what I call "lag burst" when coaching. You use picks, spacing pulling your man through and then when the opposing player settles on your pace and pop a gear for a short burst to get position on him with your dribble. Stockton was the best I've seen at this. It made the pick n roll deadly as you had to account for him off the dribble.

We've heard from posters on the board this week that the Celtics only fear Joe Johnson and that is why they double him with the ball.My question is: "Is it possible that they double Joe because they don't believe he can effectively pass out of the double team?"He shot 37% for the series and average 2.7 turnovers with 3.5 assists. But the thought that bugged me today when thinking about this is "if Joe was doubled so often, there had to be someone open that he only got the ball to 3.5 times a game. When doubled that often, aren't 3.5 assists a given?"Was that part of the Celts strategy? That Joe is not an effective passer out of the double team.

Every ignorant basketball post on this board seems to focus solely on the offensive end of the game (ie, putting the ball in the hole or one on one offense). There are 4 very important parts to basketball that are just as important.1. one on one defense2. team defense (knowing your responsibility)3. team offense (from setting screens, moving without the ball, being a decoy......what you do when you don't have the ball)4. floor recognition (ie...playing with your head up)Joe is a better scorer than Josh. You will never hear me say different. But Josh's 1 on 1 defense, his team defense, team offense and eyes up are all better than Joe. Horford is very close, might be better overall.This is why Josh gets numbers...not because he's athletically gifted. There are tons of guys who are athletic freaks that end up bagging groceries. How often before plays are run do you see Josh pointing people into place? How often do you see a player let their man get by them only to see Josh alter the shot at the basket or front the man in the lane? How many times to do you see Josh hit Marvin, Zaza, Al under the basket for an easy 2 or hit a man for an open 3 across the lane? How many dunk put backs, weak side rebounds, scrums on the floor? How often do you see any of these from Joe?Basketball is much more than being able to get into the lane for a floater and it is much more than shot selection. It's what I've been preaching for the last 18 months. It isn't Josh's jumpers with more than 7 seconds on the clock that concern me, it's his jumpers with less than 7 seconds left on the clock and what we did as a team with the ball before that that worries me. We have far more of those than the prior.

Let me explain why the "not built right" statements by Charles and or the concepts laid out by Diesel are correct.A hypothetical for you.Orlando trades Howard and TurkogluAtlanta trade Johnson, Horford and the 23rd pick in the draft.Why Orlando does it? They're losing Howard no matter what, Turkoglu is overpaid, they acquire a first rounder, this is good value in return.Why Atlanta does it. Bringing home the lost son, keeping Josh, enticing free agents, Turk's money is shorter than Joe's, Howard and Turk are a little cheaper.Atlanta tweaks their lineup to now look like thisTeague??? (any good shooter)Marvin/ TurkSmith/ IvanHoward/ ZazaA lineup of Teague, Marvin, Smith, Howard and anyone without broken legs is superior defensively/rebounding to any team in the NBA. Dwight is a low post wrecking machine. That team is an instant contender. As written is about $58 million in salary next year. 14 million to spend on 6 players.It's construction and concept, not coaching or talent.

Things from the interview1. Smith is their best player but shoots outside too much, Horford 2nd and their toughest player....Joe is a good player who is overpaid2. They are too nice3. They need a true center4. Poorly constitutedCharles and I may have been separated at birth

I resigned myself to that this season. My favorite player will be a Bull, Laker, Net, Knick, Celtic in a year or two and I will be forced to find someone else to root for.

No, he called them fags not homosexuals. Here's the difference http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s13e12-the-f-word

Celtics had 2 fouls in the first half...1 per quarter. Not really possible considering all the misses in the paint.