thecampster

If the only thing you count is p/a/r... then that may be true? However, 48% from the field. 44% from 3 and making 40 3s. Did you see how many game tying, game winning Shots that Joe has hit down the stretch? I don't think he will keep it up, but to sustain that for March is great. It's better than Josh who only increased his number of shots... Joe did all that he did and his FGA may have decreased because of the volume of shots that Josh took. (I haven't checked.). But every now and then, it's good to allow the oxen that tread in the press to get some grain.

I think this is the primary difference.

I remember Smitty. I remember one year in the playoffs, we played Charlotte... We lost. But Smitty was beastly... I mean almost jordan quality. However, Smitty couldn't stop Anthony Goldwire. Joe for all that people say about him is probably one of the most complete players that has played in the last 20 years. It's like that because there is a drought of learned basketball skills. Becuase of the drought, guys like Joe become more valuable... if you put him in the right situation.

Very wrong. Joe's shot attempts for the season 16.1...for March 16.8....March brought the attempts above 16 for the year. Joe shot "better" for March because they started running the offense through Josh and Kirk allowing Joe to take many more shots as a spot up shooter and less as a creator. Joe's turnovers for the month went up for the month.

Let me preface this by saying..."this is not Joe vs. Josh". This is about Joe's value. Joe didn't even have the best month (Josh +1.5 ppg in March, +6 rebounds, +.4 assists, + .4 steals, + 1.7 blocks and -.3 turnovers) and he isn't having the best year on his team. There are 16 other people in the league averaging more points per game than Joe. His rebounding and assist numbers are not max quality either. This thread is nice that Joe is having a month that is worthy of his big contract but whether that month is max contract quality or not is debatable and that month is far in excess of what he has given us in some time. This means that either he hadn't been trying before or very hurt for a very long time.

At least you finally come clean about what you are. Just tell us whose troll account this is and I'll go easy on you. I know there are people on this site who have troll accounts so let's don't act like this is new territory.

And man do I wish I was Joe. I wouldn't have that crazy SUV he has but I absolutely would have a new Dodge Challenger and a rebuilt 1970 Dodge Challenger and a 1969 Dodge Charger. Now that would be a good use of a max contract.

Funny how in the game threads when Joe doesn't play well I bring that up. Oh wait, that's reality slapping you in the face.

Again..you were quiet the previous 2 games that we lost and JJ was sub par.

For the 2 games. JJ - shot 9 for 25....for 38% scoring 11.5 ppg. He did average 7 assists a game, but had 2.5 turnovers a game and 2.5 rebounds per game. No steals and no blocks. He was a a negative factor in both games.

I don't think the Hawks were selling for much. I might be wrong but wasn't it around $200 million

http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-hawks/hawks-sale-to-meruelo-1217751.html

This is where I got my numbers. Looking at the below numbers, part of the reason the Hawks lose money is they are making finance payments for Phillips, the league fund and paying back Turner. Assume a 15 year mortgage at 6.5% on all (rates at the time), They have a $25 million dollar a year mortgage. Or if 20 years about a $20 million dollar a year nut on the team.

The value of Meruelo’s original deal to buy the team was estimated by sports-business experts in August at $300 million-plus — an amount based largely on the debt he was to assume or pay off.

Based on prior reports or court records, those debts included the approximately $120 million the Hawks borrowed last year from the NBA’s league-wide credit facility and the $40 million-plus owed to Turner Broadcasting/Time Warner, which financed part of its 2004 sale of the Hawks and Thrashers to Atlanta Spirit.

The debt to the NBA credit facility would transfer with the franchise to a new owner, while the debt to Turner/Time Warner, backed by Levenson and Peskowitz, likely would have to be paid off or renegotiated by a new owner.

Also, the Hawks remain responsible for debt payments on the bonds that paid for the construction of Philips Arena. The $124 million left on those bonds was refinanced in August 2010, with the Spirit pledging Hawks and arena revenues, up to the maximum annual lease payment, as collateral.

In addition, the $300 million-plus price included the value of the minority stake that, under terms of the August agreement, was to be retained by Atlanta Spirit.

How's this for a slow night topic? The lottery is $540 million. After cash payout it's going to be about $350-$365 million before taxes. Assuming the NBA would approve you as an owner. The estimated price to buy the Hawks and Phillips is around $300 million plus bank retainer. Assuming you avoid taxes through business investment having enough available, answer these questions:1. Would you buy them?2. What would be your first order of business?3. What would you not change?4. Do you think you could profit?5 What would it take to make them a champion?

I'm glad the conversation has moved a little. What they are doing is "playing through" someone. You can't play through Joe all the time and we got away from it when Joe was ailing. You can play through Kirk a little as he can draw fouls going to the basket but not enough be a real threat. Teague is good at getting to the rim but not good at finishing or dishing. If Teague would have better vision while driving, we could play through him. This is again why we miss Al. Al is a more diverse offensive player inside 10 feet than Josh is and can take some of that "Play through him" necessity on his shoulders. This is why we struggle when Josh, Joe go out of the game. None of our good bench players have been healthy enough to play through them consistently (not tracy, Rad, Pargo or Green). No one else can get their own shot or shoot the 3 consistently.

FYI, one of Josh's shots was a pass that skimmed the rim and had to be counted as a shot. Technically he took 25 shots.He was 0-4 to start the game. From then on out he is technically 14 of 21.

This is a big part of what drives me crazy. Just look at a comparison of Joe/Josh in the month of March.Joe - 12 games. 23.4 ppg, 4 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 1.2 steals, .2 blocks on 2.9 turnovers. 48.6% shootingJosh - 16 games. 23.6 ppg, 10.6 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 1.5 steals, 1.4 blocks on 1.9 turnovers. 44.9% shootingJosh beats Joe in every category except shooting percentage (by 3.7 percent) FYI at 26 shots a game, 3.7 percent is less than 1 made shot a game. But all we've heard the last 2 weeks is M'f'in Joe Johnson is our superstar. Josh hasn't missed a game all year, is playing mvp level basketball this month (just look at the stats). Turnovers down, rebounds up, steals up, scoring up, free throw shooting percentage up....but he can't win. In my opinion all due to a ridiculous off season training program that brought him in in phenomenal shape. I might leave town too.Take a real good look at those numbers guys while you crawl out from inside Joe's jock. Your power forward is beating your 5 time all star Shooting Guard in assists and steals while pulling down 10.6 rebounds a game.....that alone should make you scratch your head. Without Josh Smith this year, we don't make the playoffs.

I don't wanna hear about any other stats, he shot 26 times. It just boggles my mind that Larry Drew allows him to shoot so much. I mean he isn't a Hall of Fame player. Why does he get to have a greenlight like he's Kobe?

And he scored 30. Joe shot the ball 14 times and scored 11. he pulled 18 boards and threw 5 assists and shot 50%...he earned it.

Honestly there's no doubt in my mind they would have a won a ring last year if they had Joe instead of Boozer. Just put Gibson in at PF and they don't really miss a beat. The big difference would be having a secondary ball handler and another wing player that can create their own shot and also be a great defender.

I think Boozer was big for them. I'm not totally convinced on Gibson and a backup.

Miami lost tonight, Orlando won. The Magic are only 4 back on Miami. As previously discussed, the Magic has a fairly easy schedule left. Miami has 3 games vs Boston, 2 vs Chicago, NY, Philly, Houston, Dallas, OKC, Memphis all left to play (Brutal). 11 tough teams only 5 losses ahead of Orlando right now.With their win against Miami, Indiana and Atlanta are now tied for 5th, 6 games behind Miami. Boston is now only 2.5 back of Atlanta. Positions 2-7 aren't even close to settled. Only 6 games separate positions 2-6.....8.5 games between 2-7.

*sigh*......you do realize that by offering a Bird rights max contract that the team really really wanted him to stay, right? If it was a matter that he wanted to leave then sure you pursue a sign and trade but again, if he was fine settling for a free agent max which other teams had more than ample space to offer then there would have been zero reason for them to bother with a sign and trade yet alone offer assets.

Oh, I realize that. I also think it was stupid to do so. Again...guys...JJ is a good player, an excellent shooter. I just think everyone is getting really excited about a 6-8 game stretch when the body of work for the season isn't max player quality, nor has it been for 3 years now.

More blather from this guy. No one here had anything to do with the contract Joe got. Joe would have gotten a max deal from someone that summer and we wouldn't have had the cap space if we did let him leave to sign anyone of any real value to replace him. Should the A$G just matched a normal max deal with perhaps a little more tacked on? Sure. But they didn't. That isn't Joe's fault. He is the best player on this team, a six time All Star and an All NBA player. He deserves our respect and our support.

Then a better option would have been sign and trade to give him that max contract.

This may end up soundin like a dumb question but looking at the standing on NBA.comhttp://www.nba.com/s...ew_Std_Cnf.htmlHow is Philadelphia ahead of us when we have the better record?Because they lead their division?I just always thought it was done as standings only not by division for the playoffs.

A little farther down I made a topic about this already. It is more detailed and goes into remaining schedules.http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/366273-the-next-4-games-and-then-the-healing-begins/

Totally agree. I'm seeing this team in a different way than I've seen them the last few years and I like it.

Again, I would prefer shot attempts to turnovers. Better to at least throw it at the basket than pass it someone with stone hands, not paying attention or who will pass it away with 3 seconds left on the clock. Shot attempts draw fouls, give offensive rebound opportunities and allow you to get back on defense.

I was directing that at campster.....i know you didn't say that, sorry for the confusion.

You should probably go back and read the whole post before asking me questions that don't pertain. I'll say this again and keep it simple. My comments are and have always been about JJ the complete player and his value compared to his salary. They are not about 1 singular part of JJ's game. There are a litany of closers in this league. They are for the most part not worth a max salary either if you want to build a championship team. If you are happy paying a max contract and 23 million in 3 years for 19 ppg, 3.9 assists and 4 rebounds I say thank God you are not the GM.

Derrick Rose has an iffy jumper, Ginobili ok, Derron ok, Jeremy Lin is unproven, Jamal I guess. I still say that Joe is top ten when it comes to clutch shooting which involves every part of the court plus freethrows.This is what I don't get, we have a dude (Joe Johnson) who has been so clutch this year and we still have debate over little things like this. Shouldn't fans be able to just sit back and applaud his efforts instead of trying to measure how he is doing with the rest of the team or the rest of the NBA.

The debate wasn't if Joe was good in the clutch, a good citizen, better than average husband or better in wing tips vs. loafers. The debate that got these guys all riled up was whether or not Joe is worth a max contract compared to other talent. That debate inevitably ends up in comparing him to Al or Josh which are completely different positions. My whole original argument surrounds the idea that you don't give max money to a shooting guard unless they are Wade/Kobe. Most shooting guards provide 1 thing well....they knock down open jumpers. Some can create their own shot which is nice when it happens but good team basketball involves ball-handling, moving the ball, finding the open man, rebounding and defense. This is why I value Josh so much. Compared to other Power Forwards.....only power forwards here. compare apples to apples. Josh is a better than average ball handler at that position, an excellent passer (too good sometimes), a good but not great rebounder and a very good but not great defender (he struggles in one on one post defense). Again, only compared to other power forwards or small forwards too if you will. But Joe is an average to above average ball handler at his position (great as a SF but average+ at SG), he is a very good passer (he would be better if that was his focus), an above average rebounder and an above average defender. Comparably at the position (in the concept of team basketball here) he isn't as good as some. He isn't max in my mind. FYI, neither is Josh. Josh is a good but lazy rebounder and has tendencies in his defense that make him porous one on one in the post. However, I do think Josh is more valuable based on effect on defense his presence makes. Josh helps shut down the lane which is defensive priority number two (the first is stop ball...see the Mike Bibby effect :) ). Joe is actually good at stopping his man from getting a good shot off but his team D, stopping ball and shutting off the lane are suspect.

I'm not talking about guys I want to build my team around, I'm talking about closers in the last few minutes when you need somebody to get a shot off. Joe wouldn't crack my top 20 list of who I would build around but he is definitely one dude that I would want taking the last shot.I guess it was my fault for not quoting and just giving a list of ten guys.

Then I definately would want Kevin Love and Deron Williams on that list. Deron can get to the basket at will and at least draw the foul (see the game 2 nights ago for a reference).

No way are there 10 players I would take over JJ. Lets see:1. Kobe2. Dirk3. Carmelo4. Pierce5. Wade6. Durant7. Chris Paul8. Ray Allen9. Joe JohnsonThere you go

Lebron isn't on your list. Deron Williams isn't on your list. Kevin Love? Dwight Howard? Blake Griffin even? There's 5 more you might want to consider who are more impactful.It all happened with Michael Jordan. Pre-Jordan you built a team by getting a Center first, then a PG, then a Power Forward...then a shooting guard, then a wing. That was the order of importance. In the 80's/90's a few fellows by the names of Jordan, Pippen, Drexler, Wilkins came into the league and led their teams to the playoffs every year, winning a lot. Lost in that mix was Ewing, Malone/Stockton. Traditional higher need, great players that didn't win a championship and the league decided scoring guards were more important. Jordan/Pippen was an anomaly. Defense and Rebounding still wins championships. Give me Dwight, Griffin in 2 years and/or Kevin Love any day. If you own the lane and handle the ball, you win basketball games. That's basketball 101.

It's 3 or 5 not 4. 4th will go to a division leader. Currently Philly is in 4th. 2.5 games behind Atl, 4 games behind Orlando. Atl and Orlando have the 3rd and 4th best records but Philly is leading their division.This just goes to the strength of the South. EastSouth top 3 of Orl, Atl, Mia: have a combined record of 96-50 a 65.7% winning percentage.Central top 3 of Chi, Ind, Mil: 90-55 a 60.2% winning percentage.Atlantic top 3 of NY, Phi, Bos: 77-69 a 52.7 winning percentage.WestSouthwest top 3 of Spurs, Dal, Mem : 86-57 a 60.1% winning percentage.Northwest top 3 of OKC, Utah, Den: 89-58 a 60.5% winning percentage.Pacific top 3 of LAL, LAC, Pho: 82-63 a 56.5% winning percentage.Sure the south has 2 bottom feeders but the top of the division is just plain better than everyone else.

Reaching with that last one. He is our best closer, but not one of the best in the league. There's at least 10 or so players I would rather give the ball to with time ticking off. Joe is good, but damn it was the Jazz. When I root for him and take a chance with him in marquee games, he almost always embarrasses me. I'm excited he played such a large part in our win tonight, but as cliche as it sounds...Yes that what he is being paid for.

See, it isn't personal. I think JJ is a very good basketball player. I think he does make a team better. I just think giving him a max contract and Lebron type of respect is misplaced. He is what he is. He's a good basketball player, a little soft, a good shooter and excellent in catch and shoot...he just isn't a max player in my opinion. Max players make the shot in regulation and finish with 26 points. Max players close it out in the first overtime. He's good but not max. He's worth about 12 to 13 IMO.

Just went back and checked some schedules.Orlando's is only a little harder with games against: Dallas, Boston, Atl, Denver x2, NY x2, Philly x2. I'm not sure we're gonna catch them for the 3 spot. 9 potential losses of which we are 1. But no Miami, Chicago, OKC, Spurs or elite teams. Much depends on the head to head matchup in Orlando next month.Indiana has a tough schedule ahead. Miami, San Antonio, Minny, Boston, Houston, Chicago, NY, OKC, Philly x2, That's 10 potential losses.Miami's schedule is brutal with games left against: Indiana, Dallas, OKC, Memphis, Philly, NY and Boston x3. At least 9 tough games with Orlando not far behind.Boston might not make the playoffs. Their schedule is horrendous. Miami x3, Chicago, Atl, Philly, NY, Ind, Orlando, Spurs, Minny are all on their schedule. 11 losable games...I'd guess they lose as many as 8 of those.

I don't get to watch the games like I used when I lived in GA and wasn't getting off work til 9 pm most nights, but I did catch some of this one. I'm proud of this team for the effort they displayed tonight in beating the Jazz. Yeah, their legs are gonna feel like rubber in the morning (if not already), but they stuck it out in that back-to-back-to-back marathon against the surging Jazz.I could go on and on about JJ, Zaza, Smoove and the rest of em, but I will just say I haven't been more proud. I rail against the Hawks and Drew a lot for good reason, but not tonight. They earned some well-deserved kudos tonight.Now rest up young Hawks!

50 games in 89 days. Miami...48 games in 91 days.18 games without Kirk Hinrich. 39 games without Al Horford. One of your main reserves, T-Mac has bad knees and can't play in back to backs and has missed 10 games. 6 games without Joe Johnson about 10 played with him hurt and not helping the team by being out there, 9 without Marvin Williams. Only 2 players have played in all 50 games (Teague and Smith). Yet, they have a 60% win percentage. I'm very proud of them, all of them.

I think he meant when josh went out in the 3rd.

Yes, I did mean in the 3rd when he got his 4th foul at about the 9 minute mark, LD took him out. We had about a 10 point lead at the time. They took the lead at about the 3 minute mark (6 minutes later).

And the three against the pistons, the wizards, and the cavs......just sayin

What do you say about the 2 he missed at the end of regulation that would have won the game? He had a good look, floater in the lane, no hand in his face with 3 seconds to spare.All I'm saying is be fair.

Well at least we won...thank heavens...thought we were scewed when Josh Smith Fouled out.

I really thought so too. He went out with about a 10 point lead and 7 minutes later we were down 5 and I just couldn't watch.