thecampster

So what does this mean? The Offense struggles when Joe is the PG. His best position is SG. Teague is a little below average but not terrible. Marvin's numbers are due to inactivity (opinion only). Josh's opponent is mismatched most nights. Josh's best position is SF per the sample. Can you not read?....SG is lower that PF by 2+ per

More Stats - Josh PER NET (own vs opp) on floor stats. 82games.com SF +24.6 PF +2.3 C +5.5 Teague PG -1.2 Joe Johnson PG -16.8 SG +6.2 SF -4.3 Marvin SG -46.3 SF + 4.5 PF -4.6 C +1.9 Zaza PF .0 C -2.3 Again...justify the Josh hate without opinion. Stats can be misleading guys but these are way too strong to argue with.

Interesting when you use stats to support your position only. Net stats - PG -1.3 SG +0.1 SF +3.8 PF +2.5 C -1.1 Net stats PER - Guess who splits time at SF/PF.

PER is always inflated at the C and PF due to Rebounds......Inflated at the PG due to Assists. that is all. SG/SF score....but are lower in those 2 stats.

Didn't say that. Didn't not say that, but didn't say that. I saw numerous reasons last night but blaming Teague and Smith for last night's loss is hardly fair. I saw numerous missed open 3's by Marvin. I saw Zaza benched far too long. I saw JJ timid on the drive except for a couple of drives. I saw us holding the ball a really long time again. Last night we had 81 possessions. The previous 3 games we averaged 96.3 possessions. Insert JJ, 15 less possessions for the game. Yes, I can blame JJ for killing the offense.

I find it interesting that people can post stats, records, photos, tape, etc and your answer is "it's not JJ".

Holy crap....I'm that guy!

Making my point for me. Josh is harder to replace.

Because Radman comes in for Josh, not Ivan. Ivan comes in for Marvin and Zaza. When in for Zaza, he plays the post. When in for Marvin, he plays the high post. When Zaza is out, Josh plays the high post, when Marvin is out, Josh plays his corner spot in the motion. Here it goes again. In our motion, We have 2 corners, a Center post, a High post and decision maker near the 3 point line. When the decision maker moves to the lane, the high post clears out by going to the 3 point line. When the decision maker is trapped, the corner, high post or near corner as supposed to come and help (see Zaza/AL 10 ft jumpers). When the pick and roll is set, it is by those same 3 players with options for cutters based on the pick. The far corner is the 2nd defensive release, the rotation for the 3 and the clear out if their side is overloaded. Typical set has Teague at the top, Joe at the high post or in the near corner. Josh in the high post or far corner. Center in the post, Marvin on the corner not occupied. Alt set (our least effective set in my opinion) has Joe at the top, Josh in the high post. Alt set 2 (the preferred set) - Josh in the low post (right side), 3 wings at the top, low post cleared out of the lane on the left. Those are your sets 90% of the time, sometimes inverted. The vast majority of the reason we have lower possessions lay in 2 things....good defense making long shot clocks for our opponents but us taking a long time to set up these 3 sets and executing them.

Let me quote myself from a different post. http://hawksquawk.ne...__1#entry540421 The 25 game sample states the Hawks are a better team without Joe - no replacement. The 19 game sample suggests the Hawks don't make the playoffs without Josh.

You really need to take a second and look at floor spacing and realize he's on the 3 point line because it's the spacing called for in the offense.

I started a thread on this already. Just amnestying Joe does not get you enough to fill up Phillips. Other moves are required. Josh, Al, Marvin, Zaza, Teague are owed 41 million at this point next year. There would be 7 empty slots for a 3.5 million cap hold. However, 2 players have about 2 million in options next year so the cap number is another 1 million higher (difference between minimum cap hold). There are another 1.4 million in cap holds for 4 players that are now out of the league. You will have a number 1 draft pick at about 1.7 million in there (difference of 1.2 million when he takes a slot). Before we even start next year we are about 48 million plus unsigned cap holds.....(our players we haven't resigned who have a higher cap hold.) Look here....http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/hawks.jsp scroll to the middle of the page.

This is one of the first deals for Smith I'd consider. Not sure I agree but I'd be tempted.

http://www.macon.com...-interview.html Good stuff - explains everything from stats for Hawks player compared to a team that gets more possessions. Starts out saying there are people in the locker room that don't support him.....Joe or Al....it's one of the 2. Edit - adding direct MP3 link for those browsing on a mobile phone that doesn't support Flash <a href="http://acp77987.vmixcore.com/core-dl/71/0/7/1138085481/1771/71/1351/540f34f9ee7ff2f37889e60aa255ebe1.mp3">Direct MP3 Link Click Here</a>

So if it's based on effort, Zaza is our best??? Game impact! Since 2008, Josh has missed 19 total games. The Hawks are 8-11 in those games. .421 Since 2008, Al has missed 49 total games. The Hawks are 26-23 in those games. .531 Since 2008, Joe has missed 25 total games. The Hawks are 15-10 in those games .600 Draw your own conclusions of course but based on this 4 year sample without Josh we are a below .500 team and would average 34.5 wins in an 82 game season. Without Al 43.5 games a year. Without Joe we would win 49.2 games a year. What have we averaged the last 4 years? 48-34. Based on the Joe Sample we are 1.2 wins a year better if Joe isn't in the lineup. We are 4.5 games worse without Al. We are 13.5 games worse without Josh and don't make the playoffs. More information. Joe's best season here was 25 ppg, no Al...Josh's first year to shine it was 06-07....we won 30 games. It wasn't until we got Horford and a point guard that we made the playoffs. Joe's impact here has alwasy been minimal. Joe's first 3 years here we won 26,30 and 37 games. It was with the maturation of Smith / Horford we became a playoff team. Without Joe in the lineup, we still would be a top 4 seed based on our win percentage. Without Al bottom 4, without Josh...we wouldn't even make the playoffs.

tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, boom

It isn't hate at all and Joe is not now nor recently has he been our best player. My definition of best is "most impactful in a positive way". Most everyone else's definition of best is "highest scoring". By that definition, Ben Gordon should have got a max contract with the Bulls, never been traded. Joe scores points. Based on the sheer volume of touches he gets assists (about 2 a game from someone bailing out one of his possessions). Based on the sheer number of minutes he gets, he gets rebounds. But none of those numbers are awe inspiring and that is why his PER suffers. He is a volume minutes player. But his scoring efficiency is suspect and scoring is his best attribute. Ask yourself this honestly in light of the last 8 games. Does Joe make everyone better? I would state he doesn't. Now this doesn't mean he isn't a good ball player and a helluva guy. What it means is if scoring is the definition of best, Joe is. If efficiency, getting your team involved, running the game plan, being the best off the ball as well as iso then Joe is not. Al and Josh do a much better job of getting the team involved, doing dirty work, etc. With Joe's length, he should not be non-existent in steals/blocks. With Joe's size at the two, his should not be getting less than 5 rebounds per 48 minutes. Here are a couple of lists, all are taking from the Guard category on Yahoo. PG, G, SG, G-F's that get more rebounds than Joe. Andre Iguodala 6.4 Kobe Bryant 5.8 Trevor Ariza 5.7 Evan Turner 5.7 Paul George 5.4 Kyle Lowry 5.3 Tyreke Evans 5.1 Rajon Rondo 5.1 John Wall 5 Eric Gordon 5 Kawhi Leonard 4.9 Russell Westbrook 4.8 Landry Fields 4.5 Dorell Wright 4.5 Dwyane Wade 4.4 Jared Dudley 4.4 Nicolas Batum 4.4 Gerald Henderson 4.3 Alonzo Gee 4.2 Ricky Rubio 4.2 James Harden 4.2 Jason Kidd 4.2 MarShon Brooks 3.9 Josh Howard 3.9 Tony Allen 3.9 Jarrett Jack 3.8 Ty Lawson 3.8 Danny Green 3.7 Carlos Delfino 3.7 Brandon Rush 3.6 Marcus Thornton 3.6 Chris Paul 3.6 Kemba Walker 3.6 Andre Miller 3.5 Deron Williams 3.5 Kyrie Irving 3.5 Stephen Curry 3.5 PG, G, SG, G-F that get more assists than Joe - there are 43 on this list Steve Nash 10.9 Rajon Rondo 10.1 Jose Calderon 8.7 Chris Paul 8.4 Ricky Rubio 8.2 Deron Williams 8.2 Tony Parker 7.9 Derrick Rose 7.8 John Wall 7.8 Kyle Lowry 7.2 Mike Conley 7.1 Ty Lawson 6.8 Andre Miller 6.7 D.J. Augustin 6.4 Raymond Felton 6.3 Jarrett Jack 6 Jeremy Lin 6 Monta Ellis 5.8 Russell Westbrook 5.6 Jason Kidd 5.6 Stephen Curry 5.6 Brandon Jennings 5.5 Jameer Nelson 5.5 Andre Iguodala 5.4 Kyrie Irving 5.2 Darren Collison 5.1 Baron Davis 5.1 Ramon Sessions 5.1 Tyreke Evans 5 Dwyane Wade 4.9 Kobe Bryant 4.9 Greivis Vasquez 4.7 Jrue Holiday 4.5 Devin Harris 4.5 Earl Watson 4.5 Jeff Teague 4.3 Chauncey Billups 4 Kemba Walker 4 C.J. Watson 3.9 Jamal Crawford 3.9 Louis Williams 3.8 Rodney Stuckey 3.8 Luke Ridnour 3.7 Blocks - 66 get more than Joe, 40 of which play less than 30 minutes a game. Steals - 109 get more than Joe, 65 of which play less than 30 minutes a game. Now if we're gonna play 2 on 2....hell yes I want Joe on my team. But a team game of 5 on 5, sorry but I don't. Not at his salary. He's been this way for a few years now. He's worth about 10 million a year max. Take a real hard look at those categories and some of the names better than Joe. Now Let's look at Al, Josh in a few. In Rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, Al is top 20 among F/C in all categories. Josh is top 10 in all 4 categories among all Forwards and beats or nearly beats Joe in every category. They are both better defenders, better team players and better all around players.

Josh is hurt because he was snubbed. I think he's acting like a baby about it but we are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes. We spent our superstar money on the 3rd best player on our team. Perfect world would see Joe + traded for Dwight and you line up Josh at the 3, Al at the 4, Dwight at the 5 and Josh would be happy. You build around someone worthy and add pieces like Josh, Al (not sure which is Robin and which is Bat Girl). But Joe isn't good enough for that to happen.

I'm having my second rant of the week and it's only Thursday. I'm seeing multiple Josh hate threads again about the news he might want a trade and people suggesting we build around Horford, calling Horford our best defender, etc. Fellas, I love Al. I want Al on this team. Of our big 3, I believe Joe is the mistake. But guys, Al is not Batman. Al will never be Batman. Al is a Robin. Al can't create his own shot...that is strike one. Al is undersized at the 5, that is strike 2 meaning he has to be a 4. As a 4, he isn't the low post player required to build around. He has a good jumper, can score when led but be honest. Joe, Josh draw way more doubles than Al. Al is the not the kind of guy you build around, Al is the kind of guy championship teams trade for at the deadline from teams that can't afford him the following year. Al is not Dirk, not Kobe, Lebron, DWade, DWill, Paul. Al is very good but he is not great. Just stop it with all of these "Horford is the man" posts. Al will never be Karl Malone, or Elton Brand in his prime for that matter. But he isn't Al Henderson either. He's better, just not great! If Al and Joe were great, a team with Josh, Zaza, Teague wouldn't be challenging the NBA elite every night. They'd be much more missed.

The problem with the Hawks is: "Poor Salary management and poor talent evaluation". Let's look at the obvious draft failures, the poorly timed contracts (everyone is a 5 yearer it seems). The bloated Joe's contract, Marvin's, letting Josh explore his value and then having to match 12+ per when he could have been signed for 10 average. Waiting too long to re-up rookie contracts has us overpaying in the end, late choices on the vets doing the same, sitting on Marvin's contract for way too long. I think he brings better before last season. and 2 years of Zaza having to fight for minutes with the likes of Powell...how's that for talent evaluation?

(Paraphrased) "How in the hell have we not shot a free throw yet. I've never seen a team play defense that good." To Jerome at the half stating what he asked the ref.

Oh oh oh....this is a good one....6 year old vent thread...same song...different verse. http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/166536-the-hawksquawk-dream-team/page__st__15

This should help....go to the Hawksquawk Classics and read some of the threads....like this one. http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/355269-hawks-begun-preliminary-talks-for-carmelo-anthony/page__st__180 A hypothetical surrounded Carmelo. At the end of the thread it was established one poster wouldn't trade Horford for Carmelo and Nene. Another stated Horf was worth Dwight or D-Rose. Read the classics....you'll be glad you did.

Believe me, it may sound harsh but it really isn't. This time of year a common cast of characters gets on with whomever the hot free agents are and start epic threads about signing 5 superstars and stating the ASG just needs to go into the Luxury tax to do it. Once that fire starts, there will be about 80 threads in a month that turn into rumors on other sites and it gets much more ridiculous than DWill and Dwight. And they typically hijack legit threads on purpose with their nonsense. When Miami was going after the big 3, there was one thread about how we should sign and trade for all 3. If I remember right, the person confused themself and had us trading the same players to both Toronto and Cleveland. A common line at the time was "This isn't NBA2010 where you can make a trade offer 15 times until the computer random generator finally accepts it. It was the reason the trade forum came into existence many years before. Wild trades like (Marvin for Shaq) were getting posted in the conversation forum pushing legit threads off the page. Similar happened with Politics during the offseason. Hang out a while and you'll see some amazing things posted...typically along the lines of "Do you think we could get Carmelo for the mid-level exception?"

This!!!!