thecampster

Minnesota has a lot of young talent that they could move. We could pick up 2-3 quality players on good contracts and the ASG wouldn't have to worry about giving Josh a raise next year. Not that I hope this happens, but I could absolutely see a deal with Minnesota that doesn't send out Love or Rubio.

My guess is that it would start with Derrick Williams and probably include either Darko or Pekovic along with either Wayne Ellington, Martell Webster or Wesley Johnson.

If it's a 3 team deal then I'd guess Beasley would be going to Orlando and the Magic would send JRich to Minnesota.

http://games.espn.go...tradeId=7z5gmzs

Williams / Pekovic / Ellington to ATL

Smith / JRich to MINN

Beasley to ORL

For Atlanta it gets us another C who is putting up very solid numbers, plus a PF we supposedly liked in the draft who is putting up decent numbers on a cheap contract and then a filler SG and it trims $2 million off of our payroll to get us under the luxury tax.

Okay, where to begin.

In this deal, Atlanta gives up 1, takes back 3 players. In order to do this, we would have to waive 2 players. Our roster is at 15 (correct me if I'm wrong).

Additionally, Orlando is giving up Jason Richardson and getting back Michael Beasley which isn't much of a good fit.

But assuming this is correct and let's assume the players waived are Stack (or Green), Collins since this move effectively replaces them. You are giving up Josh with the intent of starting Pekovic and moving Al to the 4. This is acceptable except Al isn't healthy. So this is a move for next year. The biggest benefit in this trade is the Hawks shed some salary getting them under the Luxury tax threshold and making dealing next year easier.

You can't argue with these guys who think Josh walks on water and would never want to leave Atlanta. It makes perfect sense to me that he asked for a trade simply because he is not flat out denying it as a bogus rumor. But don't try telling them that...you will just make them stomp their feet and make crazy faces or something along those lines...you know like Josh when he gets his arm touched driving to the basket and no one calls a foul.

might want to read the article where levenson is quoted as saying the rumor is unfounded. He didn't ask for a trade.

The next time he goes 1 for 5 from the three point line and we lose to a good team instead of beating a bad team, I want to see if anyone here still thinks he is great.....

Bah....He's great. I'll go out now and say it.

That's so long ago that your name was napster! So that doesn't count.

Okay so how about something more recent.

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/362701-merged-new-york-knicks-pursuing-jamal-crawford-maybe-st/page__st__75

Read the last page....Nostradamus like....scary...ooooohhhhhhh!!!!...okay so it happened a year early but you get the idea. Josh is now more valuable than Joe. Joe is aging right before our eyes. See, I must have psychic, mind altering abilities, I was right twice in one decade.

Keep believing my connect isn't good. You would never know about any potential deals outside of bad reporters and twitter.

He wasn't that bad but he was tired.

No, he was fine but his play didn't warrant 42 minutes, Pargo benched etc.....Honestly I couldn't believe JJ played 37 minutes on bad wheels.

That's so long ago that your name was napster! So that doesn't count.

Hey, I got scoreboard --- You can't take it away. I am now a source big fella!!! My word is gold.

LOL....Hinrich playing 42 minutes last night was a player showcase to show he still had legs, was healthy. Kirk's gone. In chat it was discussed, "WTF with Kirk still being in. Man LD won't take him out for nothing." Last night Kirk got the start over Marvin and led all Hawks with 42:22 minutes while only scoring 12 points with 4 assists on 5 of 10 shooting.

Kirkie played to be showcased.

Yea, publicly asking for a trade falls under tampering/collusion which is why you never hear of so and so asking out outside of 3rd hand sources, "sources close to the matter", or the GM themselves. It's why players even need official permission in order for them and their agents to engage other teams in talks while they are under contract. From the jargon it doesn't look at all as though the AP retracted the authenticity of the rumor but rather that they reported it was done in a certain manner so all in all it doesn't put the speculation to rest.

The Associated Press reported erroneously that Atlanta Hawks veteran Josh Smith had asked for a trade and criticized the team’s management for a lack of support.

Notice that Publicly is not in the that line. The second line is for saving face, etc. It's a nice way of saying "there's no way we don't know if it happened privately". Speculative but the first line is them retracting.

I would just like to go on record as saying 5 days before it happened, I called the Shareef trade. Everyone called me bogus but I just stated it made sense for all parties. When it happened the board was like, "DUDE, NAILED IT!"

That one word is about a fine. Josh has been stating all along that if he were to publicly ask for a trade he could be find. When the paper reported this the NBA probably looked into it. Found out he did not and forced the retraction

agreed

Simple answer, it's a spark that caused a fire but there is no substantive information that isn't over a year old.

Hakeem was never a banger and he's a HOF center. David Robinson was never a banger and he's a HOF center.

Hakeem averaged over 11 rebounds a game for his career

Robinson averaged 10.6.

Both averaged right around 3 blocks per game.

Both operated almost exclusively in the post.

Perhaps you should qualify what you call a banger?

Alright everyone has gotten there shots in and if you haven't then too bad. Let's all move on and get back to hating on the players and not each other.

ah come on..one more thing...who is the girl in the current pic?

I wouldn't mind it if it was actually gentlemanly rather than accussing me of having a love affair with Deron and questioning my intelligence.....especially when it all started because the other person didn't bother reading the train of thought Dol and I had established.

Look, I'm not into man love but you could do worse than DWill. At least you aren't crushing on Rubio or worse yet Sheldon Williams (that's one ugly brother).

That must mean something for it to be in their retratction.

That one word is all about saving face. They can't argue "private" speculation.

Okay okay I guess I'm way behind in this thread as I got tired of reading every post. From here on out let's knock off the personal remarks and get back to the topic at hand.

You're both good posters and both more than capable of making your points, even if you disagree, in a gentlemanly fashion.

Dolf - You're a stupid head and uhm....yah, you root for dumb teams and uhmmmm...the only thing you bring to the table is a collection of super hot girls in your profile pics....

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Amx0sc8Fi5Wt_ko4B5uRfM.8vLYF?slug=ap-hawks-kings

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP)—In a story March 12 about the Hawks-Kings game, The Associated Press reported erroneously that Atlanta Hawks veteran Josh Smith had asked for a trade and criticized the team’s management for a lack of support. Smith has not made any such public demands.

Why does this matter? Someone obviously asked for a retraction. He didn't ask for it publicly and his agent, Josh or the team has decided to fight back without denial so they don't look like they are covering it up. They wouldn't retract this unless someone told them to.

NBASuperstar - You do not trade Josh for Nash unless you are contending and without Josh or Al, we are not contending. We'll have Nash and absolutely no post game and a deteriorating future.

Fellas, fellas, fellas.

Josh has a trade kicker.

He is an expiring next year, meaning he needs to be resigned and the way he is playing right now he is a near max contract in a bad CBA.

Trading him away now without = value in return means tanking the season but you have too many wins currently to go into the lottery.

There is no "founded" information that he wants to go or will go (although ESPN speculated he was going west coast before Thursday).

There are 3 days left till the deadline. Relax and see what shakes with Dwight.

Information 2.

Orlando has played their way into the 3rd seed. Dwight isn't going anywhere without equal and current value in return. They are borderline contenders this year.

When you go to 82games.com and look at our team stats, one floor unit jumps out in the 5 man rotations. Early in the year we were using Teague-J.Johnson-Radmanovic-Smith-Horford. We used it 56.6 minutes in the first 11 games. During those 56.6 minutes we were +36. Same group, sub Marvin for Rad we used 177.1 minutes but are only +19. 3 times the minutes, half the plus minus. This shows how much better Rad fits in the team concept with the other 4 starters. How much more comfortable getting his in the flow and helping primary options he is.

When the grouping is Teague-J.Johnson-Williams-Smith-Pachulia, the team is -20 in 322 minutes. Sub in Rad for Williams in only 41 minutes the group is +15.

Now interestingly, when paired with the subs, Marvin does fair better. This would suggest that Rad should be starting in place of Marvin and Marvin is lost when he must defer.

Note: 82games is about 10 days behind.

Here's the deal Diesel, the +/- is a good tool for exposing if a player with good personal numbers (Joe, Josh, etc) helps others around him. It's a tool and not the end all, be all. Some players get their's (see Crawford) but don't necessarily make everyone around them better. In Craw's case, defensive liabilities. This is why Rad is so high. He is long, average defender but his presence stretches the Defense, helping others on the floor get space for shots. The offense is better when Rad's on the floor, defense doesn't suffer except on teams that rotate well to the 3 point shooters (which he doesn't defend well).

Teague and Josh's numbers are higher because of their presence on the defensive end. They create fast break opportunities, get steals/rebounds/blocks, slow the other team's offense. Although not the best offensively, they are good there and very good on the defensive end in most situations.

Joe's numbers are a little lower because when on the floor he dominates the ball making other's around him less efficient. Also, Joe is typically on the floor when the other team's best players are on the floor as the main rotation guy.

Marvin's number's suck because when the team struggles, he is usually first yanked. He's not on the floor for the good run and his rotation sticks him with the subs a great deal as a first option with the subs (which we know he is not).

It's a "how well do you function in the team concept" and a "are you lucky enough to be on the floor with the right guys" stat.

Look at Rad's stats for the year. The stats suggest Rad is on the floor during comebacks or pull aways. Rad tends to replace Marvin, is on the floor with the better defensive units and the 3 point shooting units. He doesn't play often with Green or Hinrich. Zaza's numbers are way, way down from playing with the reserves the beginning of the year (first 20 games or so). Teague plays most of his time with Josh, Joe, almost never with Green and is usually sub'd for by Kirk. Kirk was out when Al was playing and gets no benefit of Al.

Al, played almost exclusively with Teague, Josh, Joe and a mixture of Rad, Marvin.

Josh mixes in with the subs a lot as the last man off the floor. Joe, similar. Their numbers are affected by playing a lot with Kirk, Green, Zaza.

If you are on the court and your team scores, you get a +1 for every point. If you are on the court and the opposing team scores, you get a -1 for every point. If you are on the bench, nothing happens.

So tonight for example,

In Kirk's 42 minutes, the team scored 7 more points than it gave up.

In Teague's 37 minutes the team scored 15 more points than it gave up.

In Zaza's 29 minutes, the team gave up 2 more points than it scored.

In Smith's 39 minutes, the team scored 9 more points than it gave up

In JJ's 37 minutes, the team scored 2 more points than it gave up.

Now for fun, I did some figuring. Hawks players this season. Notice how the smaller the sample/minutes played, more assanine the number. +/- is a decent season long value stat but not a good game by game stat.

Player///// avg+/- // per48 +/-

Sloan//////+3.6////+43.38

Damp/////+2.1////+16.57

Stack//////+2.9////+15.12

Horford///+4.73///+7.18

Vlad////////+2.39///+6.97

Teague///+2.12///+3.18

Josh///////+2.0//////+2.69

Joe/////// +1.74////+2.33

TMac//// +.79 //////+2.27

Pargo//// +.28 ///// +1.10

Marvin // +.24 //// +.45

Zaza ///// -.1 ////// -.19

Ivan ////// -.2 ////// -.68

Collins // -.3 ////// -1.36

Hinrich // -1.1 //// -2.62

Green /// -2 /////// -5.58

FYI, +/- for the year (partial list)

Radman 92

Teague 87

Josh 82

JJ 61

Al 51 (in only 11 games when we started out well)

Stack 44

TMac 27

Pargo 10

Marvin 9

Zaza -3

Hinrich -25

Green -70

I'd love to agree with you re: Marvin but I'm afraid I'd get accused of defending him. Unfortunately around here you're only allowed to defend Josh Smith and people act as if you have a vendetta if you find reasons to defend or criticize EVERY player on the roster.

I'm okay with defending Marvin. Just as long as people don't hold Marvin to the draft selection. Marvin is an 8 million dollar player. Are you getting 8 million value compared to the rest of the roster. IE, if Horford is 12 million, Josh is 13 million, is Marvin 8. Comparing to Joe's contract isn't fair but compare him to our team and other 8 million dollar players out there. Kirk is an 8 million player, but Zaza is 5.5 million.

If you compare him to Zaza, no we aren't getting value. Compare him to Kirk, we are. Compare him to a healthy Al, no we aren't getting value. compared to Josh, uh...no. Compared to say Paul Milsap....definately not as Milsap makes the same and produces a little less than Josh. However Devin Harris makes slightly more and produces less. Marvin is a very average 8 million dollar player, a solid value but not a good value.

I respect your take, but I disagree. In the long run, I think Horf will be better because of his size and skill.

I see it differently. I think Josh is better today. But 5 years from now I think when Josh's athleticism wanes, Horf will be better.

Yup, that is very telling... Very telling of the hatred you feel for JJ, my friend. With JJ, Hawks are +1.7. Without JJ, +0.4. The team is better with JJ, period. Regardless if you feel his numbers should be better. Who's to say we would be any better with another player at the 2?

Just think about what could be if JJ shot half of the jumpers Josh takes a game. I'm fairly certain JJ's numbers would be way better. The way I see it. it's NOT JJ's fault.

So you feel the 1.3 point net difference and against worse competition is worth 18 million a year. If that's hate, call me a hater then.