thecampster

tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, boom

It isn't hate at all and Joe is not now nor recently has he been our best player. My definition of best is "most impactful in a positive way". Most everyone else's definition of best is "highest scoring". By that definition, Ben Gordon should have got a max contract with the Bulls, never been traded. Joe scores points. Based on the sheer volume of touches he gets assists (about 2 a game from someone bailing out one of his possessions). Based on the sheer number of minutes he gets, he gets rebounds. But none of those numbers are awe inspiring and that is why his PER suffers. He is a volume minutes player. But his scoring efficiency is suspect and scoring is his best attribute. Ask yourself this honestly in light of the last 8 games. Does Joe make everyone better? I would state he doesn't. Now this doesn't mean he isn't a good ball player and a helluva guy. What it means is if scoring is the definition of best, Joe is. If efficiency, getting your team involved, running the game plan, being the best off the ball as well as iso then Joe is not. Al and Josh do a much better job of getting the team involved, doing dirty work, etc. With Joe's length, he should not be non-existent in steals/blocks. With Joe's size at the two, his should not be getting less than 5 rebounds per 48 minutes. Here are a couple of lists, all are taking from the Guard category on Yahoo. PG, G, SG, G-F's that get more rebounds than Joe. Andre Iguodala 6.4 Kobe Bryant 5.8 Trevor Ariza 5.7 Evan Turner 5.7 Paul George 5.4 Kyle Lowry 5.3 Tyreke Evans 5.1 Rajon Rondo 5.1 John Wall 5 Eric Gordon 5 Kawhi Leonard 4.9 Russell Westbrook 4.8 Landry Fields 4.5 Dorell Wright 4.5 Dwyane Wade 4.4 Jared Dudley 4.4 Nicolas Batum 4.4 Gerald Henderson 4.3 Alonzo Gee 4.2 Ricky Rubio 4.2 James Harden 4.2 Jason Kidd 4.2 MarShon Brooks 3.9 Josh Howard 3.9 Tony Allen 3.9 Jarrett Jack 3.8 Ty Lawson 3.8 Danny Green 3.7 Carlos Delfino 3.7 Brandon Rush 3.6 Marcus Thornton 3.6 Chris Paul 3.6 Kemba Walker 3.6 Andre Miller 3.5 Deron Williams 3.5 Kyrie Irving 3.5 Stephen Curry 3.5 PG, G, SG, G-F that get more assists than Joe - there are 43 on this list Steve Nash 10.9 Rajon Rondo 10.1 Jose Calderon 8.7 Chris Paul 8.4 Ricky Rubio 8.2 Deron Williams 8.2 Tony Parker 7.9 Derrick Rose 7.8 John Wall 7.8 Kyle Lowry 7.2 Mike Conley 7.1 Ty Lawson 6.8 Andre Miller 6.7 D.J. Augustin 6.4 Raymond Felton 6.3 Jarrett Jack 6 Jeremy Lin 6 Monta Ellis 5.8 Russell Westbrook 5.6 Jason Kidd 5.6 Stephen Curry 5.6 Brandon Jennings 5.5 Jameer Nelson 5.5 Andre Iguodala 5.4 Kyrie Irving 5.2 Darren Collison 5.1 Baron Davis 5.1 Ramon Sessions 5.1 Tyreke Evans 5 Dwyane Wade 4.9 Kobe Bryant 4.9 Greivis Vasquez 4.7 Jrue Holiday 4.5 Devin Harris 4.5 Earl Watson 4.5 Jeff Teague 4.3 Chauncey Billups 4 Kemba Walker 4 C.J. Watson 3.9 Jamal Crawford 3.9 Louis Williams 3.8 Rodney Stuckey 3.8 Luke Ridnour 3.7 Blocks - 66 get more than Joe, 40 of which play less than 30 minutes a game. Steals - 109 get more than Joe, 65 of which play less than 30 minutes a game. Now if we're gonna play 2 on 2....hell yes I want Joe on my team. But a team game of 5 on 5, sorry but I don't. Not at his salary. He's been this way for a few years now. He's worth about 10 million a year max. Take a real hard look at those categories and some of the names better than Joe. Now Let's look at Al, Josh in a few. In Rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, Al is top 20 among F/C in all categories. Josh is top 10 in all 4 categories among all Forwards and beats or nearly beats Joe in every category. They are both better defenders, better team players and better all around players.

Josh is hurt because he was snubbed. I think he's acting like a baby about it but we are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes. We spent our superstar money on the 3rd best player on our team. Perfect world would see Joe + traded for Dwight and you line up Josh at the 3, Al at the 4, Dwight at the 5 and Josh would be happy. You build around someone worthy and add pieces like Josh, Al (not sure which is Robin and which is Bat Girl). But Joe isn't good enough for that to happen.

I'm having my second rant of the week and it's only Thursday. I'm seeing multiple Josh hate threads again about the news he might want a trade and people suggesting we build around Horford, calling Horford our best defender, etc. Fellas, I love Al. I want Al on this team. Of our big 3, I believe Joe is the mistake. But guys, Al is not Batman. Al will never be Batman. Al is a Robin. Al can't create his own shot...that is strike one. Al is undersized at the 5, that is strike 2 meaning he has to be a 4. As a 4, he isn't the low post player required to build around. He has a good jumper, can score when led but be honest. Joe, Josh draw way more doubles than Al. Al is the not the kind of guy you build around, Al is the kind of guy championship teams trade for at the deadline from teams that can't afford him the following year. Al is not Dirk, not Kobe, Lebron, DWade, DWill, Paul. Al is very good but he is not great. Just stop it with all of these "Horford is the man" posts. Al will never be Karl Malone, or Elton Brand in his prime for that matter. But he isn't Al Henderson either. He's better, just not great! If Al and Joe were great, a team with Josh, Zaza, Teague wouldn't be challenging the NBA elite every night. They'd be much more missed.

The problem with the Hawks is: "Poor Salary management and poor talent evaluation". Let's look at the obvious draft failures, the poorly timed contracts (everyone is a 5 yearer it seems). The bloated Joe's contract, Marvin's, letting Josh explore his value and then having to match 12+ per when he could have been signed for 10 average. Waiting too long to re-up rookie contracts has us overpaying in the end, late choices on the vets doing the same, sitting on Marvin's contract for way too long. I think he brings better before last season. and 2 years of Zaza having to fight for minutes with the likes of Powell...how's that for talent evaluation?

(Paraphrased) "How in the hell have we not shot a free throw yet. I've never seen a team play defense that good." To Jerome at the half stating what he asked the ref.

Oh oh oh....this is a good one....6 year old vent thread...same song...different verse. http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/166536-the-hawksquawk-dream-team/page__st__15

This should help....go to the Hawksquawk Classics and read some of the threads....like this one. http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/355269-hawks-begun-preliminary-talks-for-carmelo-anthony/page__st__180 A hypothetical surrounded Carmelo. At the end of the thread it was established one poster wouldn't trade Horford for Carmelo and Nene. Another stated Horf was worth Dwight or D-Rose. Read the classics....you'll be glad you did.

Believe me, it may sound harsh but it really isn't. This time of year a common cast of characters gets on with whomever the hot free agents are and start epic threads about signing 5 superstars and stating the ASG just needs to go into the Luxury tax to do it. Once that fire starts, there will be about 80 threads in a month that turn into rumors on other sites and it gets much more ridiculous than DWill and Dwight. And they typically hijack legit threads on purpose with their nonsense. When Miami was going after the big 3, there was one thread about how we should sign and trade for all 3. If I remember right, the person confused themself and had us trading the same players to both Toronto and Cleveland. A common line at the time was "This isn't NBA2010 where you can make a trade offer 15 times until the computer random generator finally accepts it. It was the reason the trade forum came into existence many years before. Wild trades like (Marvin for Shaq) were getting posted in the conversation forum pushing legit threads off the page. Similar happened with Politics during the offseason. Hang out a while and you'll see some amazing things posted...typically along the lines of "Do you think we could get Carmelo for the mid-level exception?"

This!!!!

For the players listed, no draft picks. Yes! But you have to be clear in players and the 3 players listed are a combined 28 million in salary.

HA! It's on record....Ha!!!!!! LOL

FYI <-------- is probably the biggest Josh Smith fan on the board. FYI number 2 <--------- is probably also the biggest Dwight fan on the board. Check my posts. I believe Horford and Joe are expendable. I've made numerous posts about my dream of Dwight and Josh playing together again and in my world reuniting them with childhood teammate Rondo would be perfect. There is a difference between a general understanding of the CBA which I'm sure you have and the knowledge about 5 or 6 posters on this board have on the subject (of which I am not one). There are a few guys here that know just about everything pertinent between them. When they say, "it ain't gonna happen under the CBA", it is not going to happen. Okay, not let's pretend for a moment that we find a way to unite DWill and Dwight here. Let's also assume each of them signs for 15 Million that first year. That is a reasonable assumption they would take a discount to build a team. You are at $30 million. In that scenario, you can only have $28 million in existing salary and cap holds. Josh is $13.2 million next year and he isnt' going anywhere, not if you want Dwight here. So now you have 14.8 million that can be on the roster to sign those 2. You have a draft pick who will be 1.5 to 2 million next year. We'll call it 1.7. You will have about 4 million in cap holds from unsigned veterans.So now you have 11.1 million. You have Zaza, Marvin, Teague on the roster. That's about 15 million. You now about 4 million over the cap. You haven't dealt with Hinrich's cap hold ($11.5 million until he signs elsewhere) but lets assume he's gone. You also have about 6 spots on the roster at .5 mil each for vet cap hold for another 3 million. Okay, so you are 7 million over the cap, have had to amnesty Joe and Horford to get there (which you can't do). That is your "reasonable" scenario of signing both. You can't sign another team's player and go over the cap so this is a no go. Now, how can it be done? Great question, glad you asked. Based on what you said, we're talking "after the season". First, in the case of a sign and trade the salaries can be moved in a similar amount and draft picks attached (I think picks can attach) but you can't sign multiples in this scenario. So in the case of Deron, you need to trade a player of = value to get Deron to save your pick. That player has to be Horford as New Jersey isn't taking JJ. So you sign and trade Horf to NJ for Deron. Then you sign and trade JJ + 2 1st round picks (2013 and 2015 only way it works) unprotected. Now, there is a catch here. You now have Zaza, JT unable to start as Deron and Howard have their spots and JT is up soon. You now must trade Zaza and JT to clear room for a player or two that fits better (namely a wing that can shoot). You also have Marvin at too much money and not a consistent enough shooter to play inside out with Dwight. Using those 3 players, you need to bring back better fitting assets at the 2 and 3 or 2 and 4 if Josh is to play the 3. With Dwight and Deron at 30+ million plus Josh you are at 43 + million. Let's assume those 3 assets bring you back a quality 2 and 3 at about 15 million total. You are now at $58 million + cap holds +your draft pick. You have 8 million to spend on 6 roster spots minimum. You will probaby bring back Green, Pargo at this point. You are lining up Deron/Pargo Playerx/Green Playery/playerz Smith/playerw Dwight/playerq Draft pick, 2nd round draft pick. That is one whole lot of if's

That's exactly it BHboy. Spot your fastball and curveball on both sides of the plate...entice with the thigh high, middle of the plate changeup (the looks like a fastball mistake). You have to be able to throw your 2 main pitches both inside and out....don't miss in the middle.

Dwight isn't coming to Atlanta without giving up Horford, probably Teague and draft picks while we take back Turk. There just isn't a way around it. The two of them would have to settle for 7.5 million each and in a market with 1/3 the self promotion potential as New York, LA. It isn't happening without trades. Maybe Dwight, Maybe D-Will but not both while keeping 2 of our top 3 players.

Dwight +Turk for Horf + Marvin on paper is an upgrade of collusion investigation proportion. Everyone being healthy, that series is over in 5. You can't double Joe in that scenario, you can't double Josh in the post without dunks for Dwight and vice versa, you have 3 legit 3 point shooters on the floor and you can challenge from both sides of the paint. That team is a defensive nightmare for anyone. I love Horf but you can't compare his impact to Dwight all around.

You see....this is the stupidity I'm talking about. Read this thread before posting things like this. http://hawksquawk.ne...rmation-inside/ In your scenario, you aren't accounting for cap holds, Joe, Marvin, Teague, Zaza, draft pick's salaries. If it doesn't fit under the cap, you don't get it. Draft pick +cap holds+ Zaza+Marvin+Teague alone account for over $20 million in cap. Josh + Al account for $23 million. So you figure out how to get Dwight+Deron for under $15 million and I'm onboard.

He's had one visit. This is my fault. I didn't send interest letters early enough, hasn't taken his SAT yet (this week). We're working on that now.

Appreciate that Dolf. Honestly, it was something he was close to over the summer, he'd done pre high school and only gave up 3 hits the previous game but a no no is just such a touchy thing. Should have been a perfect but we'll take the no no. Not a big guy either. Just 5'7" but has great location and movement. A pitcher, not a thrower which is so rare in high school.

As some of you may know, my son is a pitcher at Paulding County High School. Couldn't be prouder right now. 10-0 victory tonight and he threw a no-hitter. The only baserunner was on an error by our shortstop. Sorry but just needed a proud papa moment. Go BUBBA!!!

I wish it were so....I brain farted a 4 for an 8 and then read my own number and accepted it as truth. Thanks for making me seem smarter than I am though. However, let's pretend for a moment you are Howard, Ray Allen, Deron Williams, etc. The Hawks amnesty Joe, trade Josh/Marvin/Teague for an embarrassing rash spring break weekend and are left with Horford as a starting point and they come to you and say...take our buckets of money and we'll build around you. We're serious and trustworthy. I'm sure Deron, Dwight, Ray run to you over the other 29 teams in the league. Your reputation after all is that trustworthy. People forget that the only reason Miami pulled off what they did is all 3 players signed for less than the max. They each will make only 17.5 next season (2.2 million less than Joe...Wade will make $17.1). They were all about 15% below max and their current cap hold for 2012/2013 is $82 million which would put them $10 million into the Luxury tax. I'm pretty sure the ASG isn't taking a $20 million dollar a year risk or getting a 15% discount from players to come here.

I think you can get more for Marvin/Hinrich. There are buyers out there for Marvin and Hinrich is an expiring...Marvin is next year if he doesn't work out. Minny for example would love Marvin....So would New Jersey.

I would explain why I wrote $54 million but honestly it would open me up to much mocking for being a moron based on the thread However, the logic stands because of the cap hold for the draft pick. Also...you can only spend the full space under the cap if that's the first player you sign. So if you resign your own free agents (see green, pargo, Ivan), draft picks first (typical with draft picks), you are taking from that space. No you aren't sending Smith and Marvin for essentially a KG salary dump...not even for a 50/50 chance at Dwight. You don't do that unless you are pretty sure you're gonna get him and have room for role players. Using that logic of trading smith/marvin for KG means you are getting back additional draft picks which increases that cap usage. It's just silliness and not happening. I mean basic understanding of the mechanics of not only the cap but the order you sign people, etc. Also, there is no way Kirk is walking at the end of the year. Either Kirk is traded now or in a sign and trade after the year. That player will push the cap hold higher (I'm betting next 3 days..for about 5 million in salary or in a package with Marvin for a top tier player (they are 16 million between them....that would buy you someone's 15 million dollar player on a bad team). but thinking we are going to amnesty our way to Dwight or others is just ridiculous. Yes, using Shamsports is way better. We have 20 million in cap holds next year beyond the 60 million salary figure on players that will be FA. http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/hawks.jsp Just scroll to the bottom and then explain to me again how we get 18 million under the cap with our holds. Didn't realize Morris, Thomas, Powell and Armstrong all had cap holds next year too.

Now that I agree with. Calling him a low BBIQ player is silly when you see how he quarterbacks the defense and the frustration on his face when people are not in position on sets, Joe holds it too long etc. I see him as being ahead of the curve....which means that when he doesn't give it up...it's a conscious decision. Either it is being encouraged behind the scenes or not being discouraged and he's decided he can and THAT HE WILL!!!

Okay fellas. Some of you have me on the verge of violence. Anyone else with knowledge who wants to pile on in this thread, please do so. In many of our threads, I keep seeing people say things like (if we traded for this expiring guy then let him walk, we've cleared "X" dollars from our cap and can sign Dwight - Carmelo and Lebron's mom. The following is the Hawk's cap situation next year. Source - http://hoopshype.com/salaries/atlanta.htm JJ - $19,752,645 Josh - $13,200,000 Al - $12,000,000 Marvin - $8,287,500 Zaza - $5,248,750 JT - $2,433,076 Total - $60,921,971 That's it. We only have 6 players signed next year. Kirk is an 8 million dollar expiring this year and a huge trading chip. He is most likely gone by the tradign deadline and by far our biggest asset. Okay....pretend for a moment we Amnesty JJ. We are at $41 million. Assuming a similar cap next year of $54 million, that leaves us $13 million to sign a Dwight type player. Not gonna happen. Get over it. With nearly no assets, no money...not gonna happen without sending back Marvin, Josh, Al in return and then you only have 5 on the roster. Without Amnestying our top 3 or sign and trading them, we can't sign anyone for more than an exemption. Even with Amnestying, we don't have a max level contract under the cap to sign them. Get it, Got it....Good! Now the LT. Assuming a Luxury tax of $72 million. With those 6 players under contract, we are $12 million from the LT. Assuming we do trade Kirk for someone else's $8 million salary dump, we'll have about $68 million spent with 7 players under contract. We'll have 4 million to spend. We'll have a first round pick at that will cost about $1.5 million meaning 4 vet minimums for 5 year or less vets or we hit the LT. This is how it will play out, minus a few basic things. So we aren't "amnestying" Joe. Our only recourse is a trade of Joe, Al or Josh for multiple smaller pieces and or finding a buyer for Marvin for pieces. Now notice I said, "PIECES" plural. With our current situation having $45 million tied up in 3 players, almost $20 million in one, our other assets need to bring back lower priced role players. ' Summary - The cap will keep us from just signing people outright even if we amnesty.....The LT will keep us from signing anything more than vet minimums if we don't trade down with our assets.