thecampster

Here is how I'll defend him. Josh the last 15 games (FEB, MAR)

18.3 PPG

11.0 RPG

--4.1 APG

2.27 BPG

I can defend Josh!!!

just back up and give him the shot!

That was funny!!!

MO,

You can't defend it but you can put it in perspective.

JJ - 6-17, 35.3%

JT - 6-14, 42.9%

Zaza - 5-14, 35.7%

MW - 5-15, 33.3%

JS - 5-20, 25%

the reality is only JT earned his shots tonight. If you look at it from a points per possession aspect (ie shots+turnovers)

JJ - .9

JT - 1

Zaza - .87

MW - .73

JS - .64

Terrible...all of them. You should get about 1.1-1.2 points per possession. Only Jeff Teague came close and he passed on what should have been the go ahead 3 out of fear.

The only argument you can make for Josh is that inspite of his dreadful offense tonight, he had the best +/- at +8.

If Dwight goes west, Collins is not tendered a contract next season and a West contender picks him up in a panic.

And when he gets back, I keep Zaza in the lineup, slide Al to the 4 and move Josh to the 3.

Bogut is by far the better fit.

Marvin overall numbers and production possession to possession tells me he's a good player. Misused when I watch the games. I personally don't think he's misused, just has the wrong supporting cast like 90% of the team as it is. The only one who fits is Josh Smith and he's a never fit player so that answer that question. Marvin is also just a much better player. He's a very good man defender. Solid team defender. Always moving on offense. Has great tools. Has High BBIQ. Is a team player. He's nothing special without question but in the right system he's a 15ppg 20 PER and top win shares player. Marvin with a lot of PT equals wins by adv statistics. If you are willing to give that up for a scrub and Atlanta does too, I will gladly up this thread in a couple of months. I will bash the h*ll out of this franchise to the point where you think AHF is light on ASG.

Cleveland actually has a real PG in Kyrie Irving. They actually have pieces that fit. It should be fun watching Marvin make all you who wanted a trash trade like this eat crow. I know for a fact Sessions will prove me right. I seen him enough to know he's a bonafide scrub, I don't give a darn if his stats say otherwise. His game is like Anthony Johnson and the rest of those crappy journeyman PG's we always have.

We aren't going to draft anyone special. Probably another 3 year project who might be a role player come year 3.

Picks have value...even pick 20. Two number 17-20 picks and and a 26 year old starting forward for a rent a player at pg who will not get you a championship without a legit center or quality spot up shooters.

I will gladly up this thread if we do something stupid like trade for Sessions just to act like a child and say I told you so. Stats are great especially on teams that have losing records and your overall impact is below average majority of the time. He's a backup. I wouldn't even start him. I pray to God a stupid team like LA trades for him but LA isn't stupid. We are the stupid ones. So I am betting a team that drafted Shelden Williams and Josh Childress in the lottery becomes smart.

Teague is a lot more talented than Sessions. Better no but that's why Teague's not a starting PG at a NBA level.

Sessions is not needed on this team.

Steve Nash for Marvin and two future 1sts.

You want to trade Marvin, trade him for someone who can get us wins. Not go in reverse. Atlanta has proved that when they get rid of talent. They never get it back. We aren't the Pittsburgh Steelers.

That's what separates us from San Antonio of the world. Not just coaching. But making SMART personnel decisions.

Which is evidence enough to why you aren't an NBA GM. 2 future 1sts for a guy who will be out of the league in 3-5 years and a player who is a good size expiring next year.

Simple guys. 90% of the time when Joe iso's, except for the corner outlet (typically Marvin or the point), the left side of the floor is cleared for him to work. The center has the near right block but needs to operate outside the paint in the moment. For spacing, the remainder of Marvin or the point is position in the far right corner. Josh is posted high post to the 3 point line on purpose to draw his defender away from Joe.

Now what Josh should do is wait for Joe to cross and then Josh should slash to the basket. However, Joe dribbles with his head down most of the time trying to "get his shot first" and take the defender off the dribble. When Joe puts his head down and the double comes, he isn't in a position to pass out because his head is down. So Joe gets trapped and the pass doesn't come. So 5-ish seconds left, Joe has 2 places to go with the ball. The near corner or rotate to Josh.

In this set, Josh is on the side of the floor with the Center, the right corner defender and he is open because his man left to double Joe. Time permitting, Josh should be taking the ball straight to the hole at the opposing center and if he draws him, drop it off to the center or to the corner. However, Joe gives it up too late for this to develop and so Josh just shoots. Watch it 1000 times, this description of "the event" will be accurate, 90% of the time.

I think there's room to say that Luol Deng is not supposed to go.

or iggy

I just don't understand why this fool keeps hoisting up jumpers night in and night out. It seems like he is taking more jumpers from the perimeter than Joe!!!! What is going on.....

Joe is shooting 42% from the field....lowest in some time.

Joe by the numbers compared to last year.

Down .6 points per game (down for the 5th straight year for a total of 7.4 points off his 06-07 average)

Down .9 assists per game (down for the 4th straight year)

Down .5 rebounds per game (down for the 2nd straight year)

42.5 % FG%. Lowest since 02-03

2.8 FT Attempts per game. Down for the 6th straight year. lowest since 03-04.

Joe is talking about Joe and should be pointing the finger at himself. 17.6 ppg on 15.8 shots is pretty average, 3.5 reb, 3.8 assists, virtually no blocks or steals making 18 million a year.

Joe should shut his pie hole.

Using the simple formula ppg/(FGA+TO). Joe's efficiency is less than 1.01 points per possession that ends with him (not counting the passing to Josh and company with 3 second left plays). Here is a list of other prominant Hawks using the same formula.

Josh - .9412

Joe - 1.0057

Teague - 1.0169

McGrady - 1.0492

Green - 1.0735

Marvin - 1.1294

Zaza - 1.1667

Al - 1.1376

If you give IsoJoe credit for 1 of Josh's bad shots a game, Joe is low man on the efficiency totem pole. Either way, Marvin, McGrady, Zaza might have a case. Ivan, Hinrich, Vlad and Pargo rank lower than Josh. Hinrich being the lowest.

Don't like that. How about PER rating.

Josh - 19.74

Joe - 16.75

Marvin - 16.34

Joe needs to point that finger at himself and say, "I need to step up", not we. Joe is making almost 50% more than any other Hawk. He's making 2.2 times more than Marvin for virtually the same per and lower efficiency with the ball. His numbers are down across the board. It isn't all Joe's fault but sometimes you just have to take a look in the mirror and say, "yep...point some blame here".

How about a "when Joe's been out". I think you'll find the numbers better.

I stand corrected. Instead what you find is wild inconsistency

13.11 ppg

4.37 rbg

Here is Marvin's production in games missed by Josh Smith from the fall of 2008 through the present:

November 9, 2008 - 14 points, 7 rebounds

November 11, 2008 - 13 points, 4 rebounds

November 12, 2008 - 14 points, 4 rebounds

November 14, 2008 - 21 points, 4 rebounds

November 15, 2008 - 14 points, 6 rebounds

November 18, 2008 - 14 points, 4 rebounds

November 19, 2008 - 21 points, 14 rebounds

November 21, 2008 - 22 points, 10 rebounds

November 22, 2008 - 11 points, 7 rebounds

November 26, 2008 - 18 points, 5 rebounds

November 28, 2008 - 10 points, 7 rebounds

November 29, 2008 - 14 points, 4 rebounds

February 25, 2009 - 31 points, 7 rebounds

April 14, 2010 - 8 points, 4 rebounds

March 2, 2011 - 10 points, 4 rebounds

March 4, 2011 - 8 points, 8 rebounds

April 5, 2011 - 8 points, 3 rebounds

April 8, 2011 - 8 points, 1 rebound

April 9, 2011 - 8 points, 4 rebounds

Total 19 games

20/8 Games - 2 of 19 = 10.5%

Average 14 ppg, 5.6 rpg

Those rebounding numbers in particular are not exactly an impressive job of picking up the slack with Josh's rebounding out of the picture. I don't buy Marvin as a 4 because of his weakness on the boards.

How about a "when Joe's been out". I think you'll find the numbers better.

He had some moments with Portland. The problem is, in Atlanta, everyone has free will. The players can play their style, as long as it conducive. For a structure player, Atlanta can be tough. For players like Josh Smith, Jamal Crawford, Willie Green, J. Pargo, and Ivan Johnson. This is a great fit. They love Atlanta as their numbers here are higher than their numbers else where coming off the bench. I been saying this, Atlanta is a great fit for guys who have talent and fit the scheme of the Hawks style. For Pargo, he is not a starter and never will be one. He for coming off the bench feels free. LD doesn't have a leash that posters here are talking about. LD is a free reign type coach. The only thing is he puts a lot of responsibility on the PG. All the players know that. The PG has to have a lot of positive possessions. Turnovers aren't huge with LD but positive possessions are as with most motion offenses in the NBA.

So Josh is a bench player in your mind now?????????

I submit that in a system where he isn't considered a bailout and with a point guard that passes well in the open court (ie Nash, Deron, etc), he's a 20 pt a game guy. We have a player who is at his best cutting to the basket on a team that runs iso Joe.

For all not quite sure what iso Joe is. The design is for Joe to dribble, drive and if there is nothing there (or in his case gets in trouble), kick out to a shooter.

In that offense, spotting up for jumpers is what you get.

Instead of these, "looking for my shot first" points, give me a draw and kick, drive and dish point guard any day.

I would like to see how many time Josh is guilty of shooting perimeter shots when there is more then 5 seconds left on the shot clock............and then compare that number with other players.

http://www.82games.com/1112/11ATL12.HTM

16% of his shots are with 3 seconds left on the clock, shooting 28%.

42% of his shots are with 9 or less seconds on the clock, shooting about 38.7%. accounting for 4.5 ppg

There's your answer.

58% of his shots are with more than 9 seconds on the clock, shooting 52%. accounting for 8.5 ppg

Comparing the starters. Zaza shoots in clutch time (last 9 seconds of shot clock). 32% of his shots. Teague and Marvin 38%. Joe Johnson 48%. This would support the claim that Joe is dominating the ball too long and Josh is his outlet.

Comparing other stars. Lebron 38%, Wade 30%, Rose 36%, Noah 38%, Kobe 41%, Nowitski 42%, Durant 39%, westbrook 27%, pierce 37%, rondo 33%, garnett 43%, Carmello 30%.

So it seems Joe's 48% and a second option at 41% is extremely long for a team built to run. This seems to be the case of Joe impeding the flow of the offense.

Total teams in the east - 15.

All star team roster spots - 12

Josh -

bpg - 3rd

rpg - 7th

spg - 8th

ppg - 16th (as the second option)

apg - 21st (from a power forward)

Bosh

bpg - 22nd

rpg - 13th

spg - 31st

ppg - 4th (but just 2.6 more per game than Smith)

apg - 41st

iguodala

bpg - 37th

rpg - 20th

spg - 3rd

ppg - 30th

apg - 9th

Deng hasn't played enough games to make the "qualified" list but loses in all 4 categories except points scored (by .2, a virtual tie). 2.6 less rebounds, .4 less steals, 1.3 less blocks, .2 less assists and in 4 more minutes per game.

Carmelo hasn't played enough games to make the qualified list and does score 6 more ppg and gets .7 more assists in the same number of minutes. But loses handily in blocks, reb, steals while shooting 39.9% from the floor. He's here because he hits his free throws.

crickets########

Well it is what it is

We'll see if this motivates Josh to play better (Doubt it)

Must really have to pee now after drinking all that Hateraid.

Anyone else hear about this? Did we waive Sloan on January 26 and I missed it? That sounds like clearing LT space.

Josh the last 7 games. 21.7 ppg (57% shooting), 10.14 rpg, 3.14 apg, 1.7bpg, 2 steals and only 2.14 turnovers.

The only negative in the stat line....21/43 free throws. Leaving 3 points a game on the stripe. Shooting better from the field than from the line.

We'll need this effort to continue with everyone out.

Yep this has been a pretty damned sad display today and it looks like they just quit afer that failed Ryan sneak on 4th down when it was 10-2.

The Hawks have been one of the more successful teams in any of the big team sports over the past few years. Granted the way our playoff runs ended wasn't great, although last year wasn't nearly as bad, but you still can't overlook the fact that we've gone to the conference semi-finals 3 straight years.

Prove me wrong but we have got to have the worst blocking scheme imaginable. We never get push on the offensive line and instead seem to be content to trap block on most running plays (even short yardage). Give me better blocking schemes any day and South Carolina's Marcus Lattimore and you'd have seen a different team this year. I have always felt Michael Turner has been the beneficiary of personnel and not ability/scheme.

LOL. Miami?! Please!! I can't imagine them beating us in a playoff series.

The playoffs are all about matchups. I fear Philly more than I fear Miami. We match up with Miami better than Philly.

Who, me, facetious? You are quite right though sir I definitely was. After all the pre-season hype over Siler here last year I'm surprised nobody has mentioned signing him this year after he got released.

Does the next coming of Shaq mean "fat, old and team hopping for a championship"? That's the most recent incarnation of Shaq I can remember. Sadly, Siler is none of those things either.

I actually look for us to lose to HOU... trap game effect...

Then, I look for us to win one of the next three... to lose one of the next three... and for one to be a toss-up...

So, indeed, I'll be pretty happy with 2-2.

this will be game 3 in a row for Houston. If we lose, I'll be a monkey's uncle. Miami has not impressed. They've won 2 extremely close games on late game heroics by Wade. We go at least 1-1 v Miami. Chicago game all depends on Boozer who is playing out of his mind right now.

okay, looked at the schedule, let me update this. Both games against Miami are on 1 day rest for us, but the back half of a back to back for Miami. I could see us winning both.

Chicago game is game 2 of a back to back for us...game 1 for Chicago. Low probability we win this one so I say 3-1 next 4.

First of all JJ and whoever they choose between Smith and Horford for Dwight straight do not work, Orlando should include another player to match salaries.

If JJ goes to Orlando one of J Richardson and JJ Reddick should go.

For me either Smith and JJ for Dwight and Redick or Smith, JJ and Hinrich for Dwight, Richardson and Duhon would be good. My preferences for the first one.

Teague/Hinrich

Redick/Green

Marvin/TMac

Horford/RadMan

Dwight/Zaza/Collins

For me this is an upgrade over what we have, Redick is a good shooter, Hinrich should have to backup SG and PG positions and Marvin should have to step up as he is doing on the wing to provide scoring BUT you have the best frontcourt on the NBA with Horford and Howars, both have at least 4-5 more years at full strength and we still mantain enough outside shooting and remember that SG and SF are the easiest positions to fill on the NBA. For me it's a no-brainer for Atlanta but I don't think Dwight would like to come here.

The deal floated...the only one in question is JJ/(horf or Smith) for Howard/Turkoglu. You have to take back Hedo's salary or there is no incentive for Orlando to do it.