thecampster

Shame on me for not even thinking of this before the article but I was all wrapped up on losing games, players vs owners...etc. Never even occurred to me the paychecks being lost by everyone that supports the game. http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Danny-Granger-invited-every-Conseco-Fieldhouse-e;_ylt=AhTaHX9fa.kTcBHrp4Sz0AO8vLYF?urn=nba-wp9423

This is going to sound completely sad, but I feel totally out of sync. I'm supposed to be getting excited about training camp, the free scrimmage day, trash talking with my Knicks and Lakers fans co-workers. I've tried turning on 680 and 790 and then I'm like...what's the point? Totally sad.

A basic structure I would propose would look more like this. Teams have 12 mandatory and 3 optional roster spots. Teams have a low/mid/high range for player salaries. Teams must have a mandatory 3 low, 3 mid, 3 high range players. The other 3-6 slots are optional low/mid level slots with a maximum of 5 in any one category and a max of 4 high level players. When signing players, teams can only use the slots available (ie 5/5/4 for a maxed team or 6/5/4 but not 5/5/5 ). So if the Lakers already have 3 high level players, they can't sign a player for a high slot salary. Part 2 of the plan is salary/slotting of player salaries. Remember these are all "suggested". Real salaries are up to the professionals. First you need the drafted rookie scale (starting at 1 million through 3.5 million based on draft position. No holdouts possible. All count as low salary slotting). Low tier salaries could start at 500,000 for an rookie and rise to 1.5 million for a 7+ year vet. Mid level salaries would start at 4 million to 8 million based on years of service for a 4 -7+ year vet. (Rookie salaries end after 3 years). High level salaries of 12-15 million a year based on 4-7+ years of service. All salaries and year limits are optional. This is just a beginning framework. Part 3 of the plan is a requirement on trades that rosters must match what is listed above. This stops deadline deals to drop salary or waive players after trades and moving them to a new team. This removes salary cap restrictions on trades as they currently exist. If a good team with only 3 high level players wants a 4th high level player from a team with 4 high levels, it would be allowed. But if a 3 team wants to move to 4, it can't trade with a team that only has 3 and would end up with 2. The slots must be met at all times. Years are up to the team/player to negotiate with a 5 year maximum.

I'm always amazed when I see people like us arguing the case of millionaires against millionaires. Fact: Lebron could make the jump to Miami because the relative small difference in salary between Cleveland and Miami was chump change compared to the whole of his total contracts over time and his endorsements. Fact: 3 years at the vet minimum is a lifetime of earnings for most of us. Fact: The NBA mimimum salary is a half million dollars for a rookie and about 1 million for a 10 year vet. This does not include per diem or other allotments/endorsements. We love the players guys but the harsh reality is that the game has gotten too big. Think about the cost of going to the game. I went last year. Got cheap seats for 3 people. $100. Hit the concession stand. $50 for the night. The average family of 3 can't afford $150 a night in this economy on a regular basis. TV revenues are going to take a huge hit because of the economy as advertisers have less to spend. Quality owners will not stay in the game if they can't turn a profit similar to other industry. That will affect the play as much as anything. Try to remember that the players union isn't like the plumbers union. 1 - 3 year contract and good financial management and you should be set for life. Piling on to my own statement. Marvin should never have to work another day in his life. Joe will have made about $200 million in contracts when his current deal is up. The players aren't suffering. They're making millions to play a game that you and I play with our family for free.

Basketball is about much more than shooting 45% on floaters in the lane while getting your own shot. Keeping the ball moving (meaning wearing out a defense), getting into your offense early, playing solid defense, getting to the foul line are all just as important as being able to get your own shot. Comparing Joe to the real superstars in the league, the biggest difference is being willing to sacrifice your body to get to the free throw line. I watched Horford get clobbered by Blake Griffin, get up and hit two key free throws. I watched Josh finish the last 20 games of the season icing down his knees before he ever hit the locker room and still he got up to try to block every shot. I see those two throwing their body around trying to guard the guards that Joe and Bibby oley'd into them all year. Constantly smaller than the other team's C/PF, they both relentlessly try to go to the rim on their own iso's and try to draw fouls. Those things are every bit as important as scoring 5 more points a game by getting your own shot. Call them the above average 3 but calling JJ clearly better based on his ability to score 1 on 1 against smaller players doesn't make him clearly the best on the team.

The losses are mostly accounting losses against budget. A planned profit is built into the budget. Looks like this. Gross Income: $300,000,000 Expenditures: $287,000,000 Gross Profit: $13,000,000 Estimated profit (5%): $15,000,000 - Net Profit - (-$2,000,000)

No, shame on you sir. This isn't about the players playing within the rules...this is about the owners recognizing their mistakes and trying to correct the system to bring it back in. This is the players not caring about the long term survivability of the game and trying to get theirs now. I can and do blame the players. This isn't like me going to my boss and asking for a $1000 a year raise in a recession. These are people who are making at the lowest ($400,000) a year...10 times what the average American makes. The average NBA'er makes 4 million a year...100 times what an average American makes. That's right...one average year in the NBA, 8 months really, is enough to set you up for life. Asking for a more even, stable system isn't wrong on the owner's part...it's good business.

Let's remember the costs of running an NBA team is far more than just player salaries. Game day staff, insurance, front office, scounting, development, NBACares and their other community outreaches. The argument between labor and ownership is always that without skilled labor, there would be no business. But Ownership is usually a long haul affair, where as "talent" comes and goes. The players that play today are not the players that will be here in 10 years (save a few). The owners must invest long term, for the good of the league. Players must invest in now for their own personal long term.

Had the subject gotten into film content, I would have agreed it should have been in Politics and Religion. But based simply on the concept of "what do you think of the movie as an idea" no.I'm not a rapture guy, but films / books on it interest me from a "what others are thinking" point of view.I watched the trailer, seemed like it would be a movie that wasn't sure what it was trying to prove to me. Was it a rapture movie, post rapture movie or a spy thriller? Seemed unnecessarily complicatedin the trailer alone.

I know right? I kept trying to debunk them in the days before the draft, especially the one sending him to Orlando for pieces. I think it's just a lack of understanding how a GM puts together a team. Sports writers may not like Josh. Fans may get tired of his complaining to refs or shot selection but Josh impacts games positively. He is maybe the only Hawk that can consistently impose his will on the court (especially at home and that sells tickets). Management doesn't trade that kind of a player unless they have Rodman/Artest like problems. Josh has been relatively headache free when it comes to legal trouble/locker room things.

Clyde, you aren't reading the trade right. In your understanding of the trade, Portland gets nothing. Portland gets Duhon and Orton (errr..and Nelson (edited)). We do not.

Just to make this thread even more assanine. Here are the 2 trades currently being proposed that could both go down and how it would reshape the Hawks. Trade 1 is: Josh Smith and Kirk Hinrich to Orlando Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, Ryan Anderson to Atlanta Chris Duhon, Jameer Nelson and Daniel Orton to Portland I have personally checked this in the ESPN trade machine and it works. Should Atlanta do this deal, you can almost assuridly bet there is a draft pick (probably Portlands) involved. Trade 2 is: Joe Johnson to Chicago Carlos Boozer to Detroit Richard Hamilton to Atlanta. I have personally checked this on the ESPN trade machine and it works. Should Atlanta do this deal, you can almost assuridly bet there are draft picks involved. Assuming Atlanta did both of these deals and after I get back from throwing up, the roster would look like this. Jeff Teague/Andre Miller Richard Hamilton Marvin Williams/Ryan Anderson Al Horford/Marcus Camby Zaza Pachulia 60 million spent - 8 players under contract, 4 left to acquire. Assuming 2 firsts come back to us in these trades, it would be probably Chicago's and Portland's. Of the other 4 teams we are talking about as trade partners, Detroit owns the number 8 pick, Portland the number 21, Orlando does not own a first round pick and would have to give a future first instead, Chicago owns the 28th and 30th picks. So assuming these trades went down, my best guess is we'd get the 21st and 28th. Probably not even that.

Anderson is not better than Smith offensively. He cannot not post anywhere near as well as Josh, can't get his own shot, he is a one trick pony that can shoot it from outside. He is a good one trick pony but a one tricker just the same. Defensively, that team is worse. You left out Beaubois and Orton from your scenario. Orlando is much, much much better and is a defensive nightmare. Imagine the Hawks are luck and make it to the second round with that unit and face Orlando. In the paint, you have Heywood v Howard, Horford v Smith, Anderson v. Hedo. Al can't handle Josh defensively. Josh is more explosive, quicker, more coordinated. Al's only advantage is a small amount of strength and the ability to step out and shoot. Heywood cannot, I repeat, cannot handle Howard any better than Horford. Hedo > Anderson. Defensively, we can't penetrate because now you have 2 shotblockers in the paint in Josh and Dwight. We are a jump shooting, non penetrating team and are so poorly matched we lose the 7 game series in just 2 games. That squad may compete against the bad teams in the league better but would be atrocious against the good teams. We are a top 10 team in the league right now.....knocking on the door of ECF competivity. Any trade should increase our chance of a getting there. If that trade makes one of the other 5 top teams light years better, it is a bad trade regardless. Josh and Dwight in Orlando together is a nightmare. The last time the league saw anything like what that would be, was Robinson/Duncan. Yes it would be that scary (not as good offensively but scary good team defense).

i still think Cunningham's quotes on JJ are more important in that aspect. MC called Joe out the other day stating he isn't living up to the contract and they'd be okay moving him and going in a new direction running the offense through Horford or even Josh. So thinking that through, bringing in a pick n' roll pg, 3 point shooters, defensive center and running the offense through Pnrolll ala Malone/Stockton with spot up shooters and a defensive center may be the way they are moving.....if the Josh thing goes down, then I think this is just step one and it's a full remake.

you're right, I wasn't even thinking from the angle of it matching up at that point with 3 teams. I was just disgusted at the lack of need at SF being filled. When Josh Smith is gone, I think a lot of people on this board are going to wake up about 7 games into the season and admit they miss him.

I think there may be credence but I think the players discussed are wrong. The core of the deal for us is getting 5 players for 2 (agree that either Marvin or Hinrich will not be in the final deal). My assumption is if they are giving up Nelson, it's Hinrich that's being traded. So we would line up Heywood/Zaza/Orton Horford/Anderson Williams Johnson/ Nelson/Teague/Beaubois 2 draft picks signed means 12 roster slots filled with 6 million under the LT. Resign Craw at 5 million per. With the 26th pick, there are about 3 serviceable but not great SF's that would be available around there. Best of which is Kyle Singler at Duke. Now looking at this trade, we are worse...decidedly worse defensively. Maybe better rebounding, better offensive point guard play. Now look at what we just did for Orlando. Howard/Clark Smith/Bass Turkoglu/Q.Richardson J.Richardson/Reddick Hinrich/Arenas That team can compete for a title. Defensively with Howard/Smith at the 4/5 and Hedo's length and Hinrich at the 1, they'd be ridiculous. Offensively, with Howard drawing double teams, Smith cutting or cleaning up misses makes them unstoppable inside.

That's pulling from Horfs old salary this year. For trade purposes we are on next year. Horf making 12 mil...Marvin 7.5. Bogut making (thought he made less) 12.1 mil in 2011-2012, Delfino making 3.5....so 3.9 million apart. Atlanta would be taking back 3.9 million less in Salary with this trade...not sure who's exception would be used. Given Horf's O (marketability too) is better than Bugut's and Marvin > Delfino at both ends of the floor (except 3's)...it would probably net the 8th pick too. I can't see Milwaukee doing it though.

If you watch the Michael Cunningham video article on the main page...MC is pushing the narrative that Joe isn't living up to his contract and the Hawks may want to build the team around Al or Josh. Don't be surprised if they are calling about Joe. With 2 top 4 draft picks and some salary flexibility they may be willing to give the Hawks expirings for Joe and Marvin.

I'm having a hard time with that. That might be the best trade scenario I've seen from you in a while. Bogut = better interior D, better inside scoring, but worse 5 feet away from the basket. I'm not sure it could get us 8 but maybe. ah...just figured it out. The salary's don't match by about 5 million.

I often forget that Horf is technically a latino connection player. That I will grant you but that makes him more of Houston/Miami/LA type of player. As far as the Joe thing goes, you are right but I was speaking "over the top" so to speak. Showing that you could give them tons of value and take away a headache and they still would not trade him inside the division. Even more importantly, they would be less inclined to trade him for Horford because you really can't leave Josh/Howard and JJ on the same team. I would submit that Howard/Josh/JJ, trumps Lebron/Wade/Bosh because rebounding and defense wins championships. Even more so, having Dwight playing the middle makes Jeff Teague a 10 assist a game guy. You can't front Teague on drives to the lane because he'll just dump it to Howard when you double off.....Having a 3 point threat, other offensive option in Joe would make Dwight nearly unstoppable. I just can't see Orlando handing us 60 win seasons like that.

Although I voted no, let me explain my answer. Your question really is a 2 part question. The first question is: Is Dwight's relationship with Josh (and belief in Josh as a player + the home town angle) enough to have Dwight pass up other opportunities to play in Atlanta. That answer is an undeniable yes. Dwight hasn't had a front court player of Josh's talent to play along side with yet. The last time I would say a 4/5 combo better than that combo played together would have been Duncan/Robinson. Additionally, if you could find a way to do this without trading Al (ie by giving up Joe) a 3/4/5 of Smith/Horford/Horward would be nightmarish. All 3 players can post up their man at that position, 2 can shoot over their man (given Smoove continues to improve and Horford continues to be himself). None of those 3 players has the same game and therefore would compliment each other in a most obnoxiously fabulous fashion. Additionally, unlike Miami where all 3 stars like the ball on the same side of the floor and close to the same spots, Josh prefers the right, Howard the left, Horf the elbows. It's a floor spacing nightmare for teams. You can't double Howard because of Horf and Smith's ability to catch and finish and you can't double either Smith or Horford because then Dwight will own the board...boxing out Dwight is a team effort and you can't really stop Horf or Smith within 10 feet when moving without a front. Of course Howard would give up other options to play here. The second question is: would Orlando under any circumstance (including a Dwight boycott) trade him interdivision. This is an undeniable "no". You could trade Orlando Joe, JT, Marvin, and three future firsts while taking back Arenas' horrendous contract and I believe Orlando would still say no. There are things about a Dwight/Smith pairing that are nightmarish far beyond the Wade/Bosh/Lebron pairing. Defensively you can have a shot blocker on both sides of the rim allowing your guards to play crazy, upfront defense. Both players are flushers of bad shots which actually helps at the defensive end by reducing opposing fast break opportunities. they've played together before and the learning curve is low. Putting them together with any other B level player that can stretch the defense would = a dynasty type of base. Simplifying....Could Josh make Dwight come, Yes....Could Josh make Orlando have to trade him to us, no. Orlando knows we can't just sign him because of our Joe/Horford/Williams/Hinrich contracts. They don't have to do anything. Now all that said, Dwight/Pachulia Horford/Armstrong Smith/Wilkens Hinrich Teague Is a scary team defensively, far better than the Bulls top tier defensive team of this year. Financially speaking...a team makeup like that is approximately 60 million in Salary...8 players and 12 million to spend on 4-6 more before hitting the Luxury tax. Yes, that is the making of a championship roster for sure.

Let's remember the myriad of games missed due to injuries and the myriad of games played through injury (horf, smith, johnson, williams all played 20 or more games while nursing some ailment). As a reminder games missed: JJ - 10 Smith - 5 Horf - 5 Crawford - 6 Williams - 17 Hinrich/Bibby - 2 Of your top 6 in the rotation, that's 45 games missed due to injury but JJ played through the elbow injury for most of the first 18 games, Smith had bad knees for most of the last 3 months and Horford hurt his back with 25 or so games left in the year. The previous year that group only missed 14 games due to injury. Woody had a much easier road to hoe in that sense.

I'm starting to sound like a broken record here. This has to be the 5th or 6th repackaged justification on trying to trade Smith. Let me make it very clear one more time. Josh makes about 13mil this year. JJ will make 18. You need to get back a center. Center's come at a premium. Volume shooting guards who have low points per shot efficiency numbers do not. Pretend you want to take back Andrew Bynum. He is set to make 15 million, 2 million more than Smith. You would need to add a player. Pretend you traded JJ instead...L.A. would need to include Salary to make it work. You will not get back Center value for Josh Smith because he doesn't make enough compared to Center premium. Per Yahoo, pure Centers by PPG are ranked as such D. Howard B. Lopez N. Hilario A. Bogut R. Hibbert C. Kaman M. Gasol A. Bynum E. Okafor Those are the biggest impact centers you are going to find. Only 4 averaged more rebounds per game than Josh (Howard, Bogut, Bynum and Okafor), only 2 averaged more ppg (Howard, Lopez), only 3 averaged 2 blocks a game or more (Howard, Bogut, Bynum), none averaged 3 assists per game, all averaged betwen 1.4 and 3.6 turnovers, only 2 had more than 1 steal a game. None shot over 80% from the free throw line. Only 5 shot over 50% from the field. Your desire to trade Josh for one of these players runs into serious problems when salary and needs are discussed. No other trade helps. You aren't getting Howard. Brook Lopez is set to make only 3million next year. Hilario is a possibility but he rebounds and scores less than Josh. Bogut is possible but there is no way Milwaukee takes Josh after the playoff blow up last year. Hibbert....lol...no way Indiana parts with him. Kaman, too old/doesn't fit/not big enough to play Dwight. Gasol, no way they trade him. Bynum, need to add a player to make salaries work, oft injured, problem child. Okafor....possible but not probable and would only be a rental as he's aging (29) and a little undersized. You aren't going to get the center you want...Josh isn't going anywhere unless management just wants him gone.

:sarcastichand: I ROLF'd!!! +947 if I could.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AmRhSnVSRlt9YnnmGtHEZ5q8vLYF?slug=ap-hawks-williams Bah...merge...didn't see the other one down below.