thecampster

Joe isn't a one for one trade player. You can bring back 1 player as good as Joe and 2 role players for what Joe makes.

I use the Milwaukee example. Josh to Milwaukee is enough salary to net - Andrew Bogut or Maggette and Dooling or Salmons, Ilyasova and Sanders Joe to Milwaukee is enough Salary to net - Bogut, Ilyasova, Jennings and 1million dollars of space. or Salmons, Delfina, Ilyasova and Jennings Plus 2 million in space. No to Josh, Yes to Joe. The problem with trading Josh is you can only take back salary for salary and 12 million will only buy you so much to fill out needs. Trading Joe, returns back 50% more player in salary. I'm not saying who you could get in real value, I'm saying how much their salaries allow us to bring back to fill our holes. Trading Josh for a 12 million dollar player does not make us a contender.

Actually, that's not a bad gig for him.....Good chance to reprove "he" was the difference maker.

No but now we're talking about amnesty for our stupid contracts. No argument at all though with the current points you are making. I still contend Marvin is tradeable and could bring back good value to a young team in need of a scorer/athlete (see Minnesota/New Jersey).

Oh man, I love this game. Here, let me quote myself from this thread from June 30 of last year. I told you so just doesn't make it taste better in my mouth though.

Piling on. Josh has actually played limited 5 in his time here too. Marvin played a little 2 this year when Joe was out. For 12 million a year, someone had better be willing to play out of position and be willing to go to Waffle House with me at 3 in the morning when I call in a favor...no questions asked.

I am not a fan of second round picks. For every diamond in the rough, there are 50 - Euro Ihopehepansout.

I personally think this will bottom line better for the ASG in regards to the Hawks. There were many nights where Phillips looked half empty for the Hawks on a nightly basis. Many of those seats could have been bought by someone spending a $ on hockey instead. Without that option every other night, I could see a few thousand more butts in Phillips for home games. Even 2000 more fans nightly at $50 a fan is 4.2 million in sales by the end of the year and that is without the losses the Thrashers were incurring. I hate to see the Thrashers go but this is a good business move for the Hawks. Adding on...just found the numbers Hawks ticket sales average per home game - 15,648. Phillips capacity 18,729. Average not sold, 3081. That doesn't include the people who buy tickets and then don't show.

Very true. Lost on the typical fan is the idea of "losses against budget". If the owners put a 10% profit expectancy into the budget that pays themselves a salary (IE 1 billion dollar team that's 100 million in salary) and the team loses $20 million against budget, the owners claim a loss. When in reality, there was 100 million personal investment return minus that $20 million). Budgeting is a funny thing. If you expect to lose 20 million but break even you don't call it a 20 million dollar profit against budget, you call it breaking even. But if you expect to profit 20 million and just break even, you spin it as losing 20 million against budget.

It's not just laziness. Some people's ego's drive them to want to get the most exposure for their ideas as possible. So they post them where they think they'll get the most attention regardless of rules. I've noticed it for quite some time and honestly, I've replied to some. Probably shouldn't participate to clear the problem.

Just remember its 50% talent evaluation, 50% talent development....A list of hawks picks that got away and were better when they left is disappointing as well.

Which once again is why the only player that makes sense to deal is Joe. The other players don't earn enough to create any wiggle room.

What you guys are failing to see is even if Joe's Salary went "poof" in the night, we would still not be able to sign free agents. Joe's money is that much. Without Joe's Salary, we still have 46 million committed to just 6 players. Add Joe in and you have 64 million in Salary, are over the cap and still need to sign 5 players. You can resign your own players and not count against the cap but it still counts against the luxury tax once you reach the threshold. Joe's Salary is the only one high enough to get back 2 quality players in return. Here are a list of hypothetical players that Joe and Marvin's salary together ='s Lakers - Bynum, Artest, Steve Blake Clippers - Kaman, Mo Williams and SNT Deandre Jordan NO - Okafur, West, Jarrett Jack Cleveland - Jamison, Varejao, and pick a scrub New Jersey - Brook Lopez and other team's salary dump in a 3 way. There are far mor opportunities with JJ than with the other 2 because of the total amount of salary involved. There are about 6 teams far under the cap that will take him off our hands in a salary dump in exchange for draft picks and or other team's getting involved to dump their salary to us.

I can't see the Cavs doing that deal but okay, awesome if they do.

there is math to the trade Josh, Al or Joe argument that most people seem to ignore. Assuming moving Marvin is also on the table. The Hawks need to move 2 players and get back 3 to better facilitate salary spread on the roster. They are going to have too many vet min players next year the way they are going. Trading Joe/Marvin - 25.54 million in salary to work with. Needs, SG - Center - backup F Trading Josh/Marvin - 19.9 million in salary to work with. Needs, SF - Center - backup F Trading Al/Marvin - 19.5 million in salary to work with. Needs, Center -SF - backup F Now when you look at that. all require a backup F. We'll assume for the same of argument that is a 3 million dollar salary. What are better odds. Gettting a Good Center + SG with 22.5 million, Getting a good Center, SF with 16.9 million, Getting a good Center -SF for 16.5 million. Obviously, if filling out the roster with the best talent and finding the best trading partners is the goal, trading Al is a non-starter because with us at the Luxury Tax threshhold and Al having the lowest salary, we'd get the least back. Now what's easier to find? A good SF with 6 million less to work with or a SG with 6 million more to work with. The answer is simple and easy....For the Hawks to take the next step and truly compete, Joe Johnson is the one that must go.

Agreed. I just don't see a team ponying up more than 7 million tops for Craw and probably closer to the 4.5 mil exception (not sure the exact number this year).

Agreed by you still have 3 spots to fill...7 million to spend and a draft pick to grab. The point was...it's doable. Hmm...need to check the status on John Salmon.

An example of a Joe Johnson trade that works and is workable because of team issues. http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5886854 Johnson, Williams for Bynum, Artest and Blake. Now assuming you add a 3rd team that would want to make this a 3 way to make the lineups palatable, it looks like this for the Hawks on paper, Bynum/Zaza Horford/ Smith Hinrich/Artest Teague/Blake/Sy You sit at about 65 million with 3 players to sign. Blake is signed for 3 more years at 4 million per. Artest is signed for 11-12 with a 2 year player option at 7+ million. Bynum is signed for one more year with a team option. Assuming you would want to move Artest, you could do so for two 3-4 million per players. Trading Joe is doable, it just comes with some obvious risks.

Here is where we stand next year with the Player's salary to the right and in order of most expensive to least with number of years left written to the side. Joe Johnson - 18.04 Million (5) Josh Smith - 12.4 million (3) Al Horford - 12.0 million (5) Kirk Hinrich - 8 million (expiring) Marvin Williams - 7.5 million (4) Zaza Pachulia - 4.75 million (3) Jeff Teague - 1.6 million (3) ( Total - 64.27 million Roster spots needed - 5 Resignables - Jamal Crawford - (my opinion, will not be back) Hilton Armstrong - (loved this kid) Jason Collins - Damien Wilkins - (loved what we got out of him) Pape Sy - Magnum Rolle - Gone - Etan Thomas, Josh Powell Conclusion - Too much salary for not enough talent. I think you are looking at the Hawks shopping JJ in the offseason for 2-3 players in return. We may have to give up Teague in the process to get value back or take back a short term bad contract or 2.

We all know I'm a Josh fan but that isn't going to keep me from being honest. Anyone that saw Al after the Blake Griffin foul, knew he came back too soon. His production dropped by 3 points a game after he came back and he just wasn't the same player. I'm expecting in the coming days a story about Al's back being jacked up from that hard foul. Al got worse and worse as the playoffs went on and his only good game against Chicago was aided by 3 easy dunks off of Josh Smith passes. Without those 3 plays, Al would have had 14 points in the game. This has been going on for about 2 months now and it got worse the longer it went on.

Ah Frank, you just stole that from my Around the NBA post tonight.....seriously though..I said the same thing.....I miss JT. He played with heart every night. Don't take anything I say as too meaningful though.....I really liked what Laettner brought to the team over that poser Alan Henderson.

Had to get this off my chest. I want the Hawks to win, but if they get eliminated, I'm pulling for Dallas. It's just their time. I miss JT in a Hawks Uni and just respect Dirk and Chandler. If it's not the Hawks year, I really won't be sad to see Dallas take it. And after that cheap shot on Barrea by Bynum, I think they're earning it.

Let me just sum up the series like this JT - 52.6 FG% (17.33 ppg) JJ - 51.1 FG% (20.0 ppg) JC - 39.4 FG% (13.3 ppg) AL - 38.7 FG% (8.33 ppg) MW - 36.6 FG% (6.33 PPG) JS - 35.9 FG%) (12.66) EFG JJ - 66.6 JT - 68.4 JC - 60.6 Al - 40.3 MW - 43.3 JS - 48.71 So why the discrepency between FG% and EFG%? 3ptr's and this FT's made: JT 11 JJ7 JC11 AL - 1 Josh - 10 MW - 3 42 total FT's made in 3 games. 2.66 a game made by your 2 all-stars.....that will not get it done.

Like you really needed another +1 but seriously what the heck was Rose still doing in the game at that point? What the heck was Rose doing taking the shot himself (ie...why not just pass it off to a less used player with 5 left on the clock and let him stat pad)?

I was causing havoc on a Bulls fan board this week when their posters were claiming that korver and company shut JJ down during the year and it wasn't due to JJ's nagging injuries. I'm still waiting on the "you were right" email.