thecampster

Huh? Teams that will be using the amnesty to get under the cap will not turn around and trade for Joe and his contract. Teams like wizards and cavalier even Orlando that are being talked about , what 10 mil good player and 7 mil albtross are on those rostersyou want.

I took a quick look, there are several possibilities. Dallas might Amnesty out Brendan Heywood to keep Chandler or they might be willing to trade Chandler if it makes them otherwise better. A package with Chandler/Johnson at the core could start the conversation.The Lakers if you remember were not happy with Bynum at the end of last year and he has 2 years 31 million left on his deal.Detroit would like to be rid of Ben Gordon.Other teams stand to lose their Free agents and need to get back something in return for them to fill space. There are deals there to be had and none involve amnestying Joe/Marvin. I'll explain.With the new agreement, teams must spend 85% of the cap. Marvin is a very nice piece (assuming he's better healthy) because he fills a much needed mid level salary range. Joe could be very valuable to a team that has trouble luring free agents because they have to get to the cap.....Joe is "insta cap" and can be traded away before the season ends to a contender in a rent a player situation.I believe Joe could/will be moved around twice this year because of his deal and won't be amnestied. Just my 2 cents worth. Marvin is in the same boat.

The way I see it is if we can get 20% more out of Marvin this year , if this back issue is true , and Teague plays like he did in the playoffs , that could make a world of difference for this team

Do not forget Joe was not healthy most of the season, Josh and Al were battling Knee/Back issues the last 20 games. Kirk had a few problems after coming here. That was one banged up group the last 20 games.

I don't think this team has been completely healthy for 5 or 6 years. This short layoff might be just what the doctor ordered.

You guys are thinking shortsighted on this. We won't be cutting anyone with this move....but other teams will to free up room to trade for Joe which is what will happen. We will take their 10 million dollar good player and 7 million dollar albatross for Joe (or something resembling this).This is the best way for a "just out of the playoffs" type of team to get back in it.

The players are making a huge mistake here. The first rule of negotiations is to never walk away from guaranteed money. 50% of 1230 games at 18,000 tickets per game at an average of $150 a ticket is a whole lot of walking away. The just turned down $1.7 billion dollars in gate receipts alone.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aq6bQE6o45ZifDNUN.L_0yc5nYcB?slug=aw-wojnarowski_nba_labor_talks_102711

Shame on me for not even thinking of this before the article but I was all wrapped up on losing games, players vs owners...etc. Never even occurred to me the paychecks being lost by everyone that supports the game.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Danny-Granger-invited-every-Conseco-Fieldhouse-e;_ylt=AhTaHX9fa.kTcBHrp4Sz0AO8vLYF?urn=nba-wp9423

This is going to sound completely sad, but I feel totally out of sync. I'm supposed to be getting excited about training camp, the free scrimmage day, trash talking with my Knicks and Lakers fans co-workers. I've tried turning on 680 and 790 and then I'm like...what's the point? Totally sad.

A basic structure I would propose would look more like this.

Teams have 12 mandatory and 3 optional roster spots. Teams have a low/mid/high range for player salaries.

Teams must have a mandatory 3 low, 3 mid, 3 high range players. The other 3-6 slots are optional low/mid level slots with a maximum of 5 in any one category and a max of 4 high level players. When signing players, teams can only use the slots available (ie 5/5/4 for a maxed team or 6/5/4 but not 5/5/5 ). So if the Lakers already have 3 high level players, they can't sign a player for a high slot salary.

Part 2 of the plan is salary/slotting of player salaries. Remember these are all "suggested". Real salaries are up to the professionals. First you need the drafted rookie scale (starting at 1 million through 3.5 million based on draft position. No holdouts possible. All count as low salary slotting). Low tier salaries could start at 500,000 for an rookie and rise to 1.5 million for a 7+ year vet. Mid level salaries would start at 4 million to 8 million based on years of service for a 4 -7+ year vet. (Rookie salaries end after 3 years). High level salaries of 12-15 million a year based on 4-7+ years of service. All salaries and year limits are optional. This is just a beginning framework.

Part 3 of the plan is a requirement on trades that rosters must match what is listed above. This stops deadline deals to drop salary or waive players after trades and moving them to a new team. This removes salary cap restrictions on trades as they currently exist. If a good team with only 3 high level players wants a 4th high level player from a team with 4 high levels, it would be allowed. But if a 3 team wants to move to 4, it can't trade with a team that only has 3 and would end up with 2. The slots must be met at all times.

Years are up to the team/player to negotiate with a 5 year maximum.

I'm always amazed when I see people like us arguing the case of millionaires against millionaires.

Fact: Lebron could make the jump to Miami because the relative small difference in salary between Cleveland and Miami was chump change compared to the whole of his total contracts over time and his endorsements.

Fact: 3 years at the vet minimum is a lifetime of earnings for most of us.

Fact: The NBA mimimum salary is a half million dollars for a rookie and about 1 million for a 10 year vet. This does not include per diem or other allotments/endorsements.

We love the players guys but the harsh reality is that the game has gotten too big. Think about the cost of going to the game. I went last year. Got cheap seats for 3 people. $100. Hit the concession stand. $50 for the night. The average family of 3 can't afford $150 a night in this economy on a regular basis. TV revenues are going to take a huge hit because of the economy as advertisers have less to spend.

Quality owners will not stay in the game if they can't turn a profit similar to other industry. That will affect the play as much as anything. Try to remember that the players union isn't like the plumbers union. 1 - 3 year contract and good financial management and you should be set for life.

Piling on to my own statement. Marvin should never have to work another day in his life. Joe will have made about $200 million in contracts when his current deal is up.

The players aren't suffering. They're making millions to play a game that you and I play with our family for free.

Legree is convinced that Horford and Smith are the Hawks 2 best players. The problem though, is that neither guy has the ability to be even a medium volume scorer ( especiallly in the playoffs ) on his own.

people are simply in denial about the importance of JJ on the team. If he is the 3rd best player on the squad, why don't the other guys step up to take the #1 role more often? Why does a 6 - 15 fg performance from JJ almost guarantee a loss, if he's simply the 3rd best player?

Heck . . if we can't get close to a repeat in the playoffs from Teague, even Jamal isn't expendible. When Horford or Smith can prove that they can be even a part-time go to scorer, that's when people can talk about if the Hawks can do without JJ ( even at that elevated price ) or even do without Jamal.

It's funny that the 2 guys people think we can do without, were the two guys ( when they balled ) almost guaranteed a win during the playoffs. Hopefully Teague will step up enough so that Jamal won't be missed. If he doesn't, people will be crying for Jamal back.

Basketball is about much more than shooting 45% on floaters in the lane while getting your own shot. Keeping the ball moving (meaning wearing out a defense), getting into your offense early, playing solid defense, getting to the foul line are all just as important as being able to get your own shot. Comparing Joe to the real superstars in the league, the biggest difference is being willing to sacrifice your body to get to the free throw line.

I watched Horford get clobbered by Blake Griffin, get up and hit two key free throws. I watched Josh finish the last 20 games of the season icing down his knees before he ever hit the locker room and still he got up to try to block every shot. I see those two throwing their body around trying to guard the guards that Joe and Bibby oley'd into them all year. Constantly smaller than the other team's C/PF, they both relentlessly try to go to the rim on their own iso's and try to draw fouls. Those things are every bit as important as scoring 5 more points a game by getting your own shot. Call them the above average 3 but calling JJ clearly better based on his ability to score 1 on 1 against smaller players doesn't make him clearly the best on the team.

Its all accounting tricks and tricks and tricks. When you can write off depreciation of players, well then you just create accounting losses that aren't actual losses. And those "paper" gains/losses, that isn't right because those are actual gains/losses. Now I would grant you it takes time to sell (a house isn't very liquid) but those were certainly actual gains just as when the housing prices fell those were actual losses. I also grant you there may potentially be incorrect evaluations (like Forbe's valuing the Piston's at $450 million even though no one in their right mind would do that, Forbe is just wrong with the valuation). Its up to the discretion of the individual to determine whether or not they want to capitalize on the gains or cut their losses. Maybe its easier to think of this in terms of stocks (because those eradicate the problems of liquidity and valuation). When you have a stock that increases its price by 50%, do you just say "oh that's a paper gain"? I hope not, because its a real gain.

Dammit, another stupid tangent. Oh well, I am sure everyone can agree if this happens it will be great. Its gotten so bad with the A$G that the typical apologists don't come out of the woodwork with all the "grass is greener" talk.

The losses are mostly accounting losses against budget. A planned profit is built into the budget. Looks like this.

Gross Income: $300,000,000

Expenditures: $287,000,000

Gross Profit: $13,000,000

Estimated profit (5%): $15,000,000 -

Net Profit - (-$2,000,000)

Just stop it, this analogy of Athletes, entertainers and their bosses to real life is just ridiculous. What other industry are you capped out with what you can make by collective bargaining rules that you may or may not have even been represented by a vote? If a Doctor becomes the greatest surgeon in the world he can charge whatever fee he wants. If a lawyer has the ability to never lose a trial he can charge whatever rate he wants. It is ridiculous and once you realize this you can stop thinking in real world terms. The owners have such an advantageous position to the players that it is almost criminal. The players are not striking the owners locked them out. You can't blame players for the piss poor decision making of front offices. You can't blame players for taking advantage of the rules that both players and owners agreed to. You can't cry "woe is me" when you bought into an enterprise that you had the very limited ability to actually see the books. Players don't see them. Only owners and the NBA executive team. So an owner looks at the books, can see that there are huge losses on the books and still buys in. Shame on you.

No, shame on you sir. This isn't about the players playing within the rules...this is about the owners recognizing their mistakes and trying to correct the system to bring it back in. This is the players not caring about the long term survivability of the game and trying to get theirs now. I can and do blame the players. This isn't like me going to my boss and asking for a $1000 a year raise in a recession. These are people who are making at the lowest ($400,000) a year...10 times what the average American makes. The average NBA'er makes 4 million a year...100 times what an average American makes. That's right...one average year in the NBA, 8 months really, is enough to set you up for life. Asking for a more even, stable system isn't wrong on the owner's part...it's good business.

Yeah, you are a business owner, but the way you are coloring this is too simplistic. If you go out and hire a secretary, you know how much you slot for said secretary. Worst case scenario you can go without a secretary and do it yourself. The NBA is not this situation. Bruce Levenson cannot go out and play SG for the Atlanta Hawks and get fans to pay for this. This is entertainment. Entertainment business models have nothing to do with the average business. Comparing the NBA to your Business is like me comparing a strip club to your business.

Let's remember the costs of running an NBA team is far more than just player salaries. Game day staff, insurance, front office, scounting, development, NBACares and their other community outreaches.

The argument between labor and ownership is always that without skilled labor, there would be no business. But Ownership is usually a long haul affair, where as "talent" comes and goes. The players that play today are not the players that will be here in 10 years (save a few). The owners must invest long term, for the good of the league. Players must invest in now for their own personal long term.

Had the subject gotten into film content, I would have agreed it should have been in Politics and Religion. But based simply on the concept of "what do you think of the movie as an idea" no.I'm not a rapture guy, but films / books on it interest me from a "what others are thinking" point of view.I watched the trailer, seemed like it would be a movie that wasn't sure what it was trying to prove to me. Was it a rapture movie, post rapture movie or a spy thriller? Seemed unnecessarily complicatedin the trailer alone.

Why are people still talking about the Josh for draft picks rumors as if they were true?

I know right? I kept trying to debunk them in the days before the draft, especially the one sending him to Orlando for pieces. I think it's just a lack of understanding how a GM puts together a team. Sports writers may not like Josh. Fans may get tired of his complaining to refs or shot selection but Josh impacts games positively. He is maybe the only Hawk that can consistently impose his will on the court (especially at home and that sells tickets). Management doesn't trade that kind of a player unless they have Rodman/Artest like problems. Josh has been relatively headache free when it comes to legal trouble/locker room things.

PG - Miller

G - Johnson

F - Marvin

PF - Horford

C - Camby

Johnson, Horford and possibly Marvin would be the main scorers in that starting lineup, with Miller being the facilitator and Camby being the rebounder/defender

PG - Teague

G - Duhon

G - Wilkins ( if re-signed )

F - Anderson

F - ( vet mininum )

C - Zaza

C - Orton

Horrible bench, but maybe Drew would let Teague be the main offensive threat on the 2nd unit. Either way, that vet minimum guy might need to be somewhat of a scorer ( McGrady maybe ).

Clyde, you aren't reading the trade right. In your understanding of the trade, Portland gets nothing. Portland gets Duhon and Orton (errr..and Nelson (edited)). We do not.

Just to make this thread even more assanine.

Here are the 2 trades currently being proposed that could both go down and how it would reshape the Hawks.

Trade 1 is:

Josh Smith and Kirk Hinrich to Orlando

Andre Miller, Marcus Camby, Ryan Anderson to Atlanta

Chris Duhon, Jameer Nelson and Daniel Orton to Portland

I have personally checked this in the ESPN trade machine and it works. Should Atlanta do this deal, you can almost assuridly bet there is a draft pick (probably Portlands) involved.

Trade 2 is:

Joe Johnson to Chicago

Carlos Boozer to Detroit

Richard Hamilton to Atlanta.

I have personally checked this on the ESPN trade machine and it works. Should Atlanta do this deal, you can almost assuridly bet there are draft picks involved.

Assuming Atlanta did both of these deals and after I get back from throwing up, the roster would look like this.

Jeff Teague/Andre Miller

Richard Hamilton

Marvin Williams/Ryan Anderson

Al Horford/Marcus Camby

Zaza Pachulia

60 million spent - 8 players under contract, 4 left to acquire.

Assuming 2 firsts come back to us in these trades, it would be probably Chicago's and Portland's.

Of the other 4 teams we are talking about as trade partners, Detroit owns the number 8 pick, Portland the number 21, Orlando does not own a first round pick and would have to give a future first instead, Chicago owns the 28th and 30th picks.

So assuming these trades went down, my best guess is we'd get the 21st and 28th. Probably not even that.

Anderson is not better than Smith offensively. He cannot not post anywhere near as well as Josh, can't get his own shot, he is a one trick pony that can shoot it from outside. He is a good one trick pony but a one tricker just the same.

Defensively, that team is worse. You left out Beaubois and Orton from your scenario. Orlando is much, much much better and is a defensive nightmare.

Imagine the Hawks are luck and make it to the second round with that unit and face Orlando.

In the paint, you have Heywood v Howard, Horford v Smith, Anderson v. Hedo.

Al can't handle Josh defensively. Josh is more explosive, quicker, more coordinated. Al's only advantage is a small amount of strength and the ability to step out and shoot.

Heywood cannot, I repeat, cannot handle Howard any better than Horford. Hedo > Anderson.

Defensively, we can't penetrate because now you have 2 shotblockers in the paint in Josh and Dwight. We are a jump shooting, non penetrating team and are so poorly matched we lose the 7 game series in just 2 games.

That squad may compete against the bad teams in the league better but would be atrocious against the good teams.

We are a top 10 team in the league right now.....knocking on the door of ECF competivity. Any trade should increase our chance of a getting there. If that trade makes one of the other 5 top teams light years better, it is a bad trade regardless. Josh and Dwight in Orlando together is a nightmare. The last time the league saw anything like what that would be, was Robinson/Duncan. Yes it would be that scary (not as good offensively but scary good team defense).

I'm sure it probably is pure BS but you never know we've seen some head scratchingly crazy trades over the past few years and would anyone here really be surprised to see a team that dealt the greatest player in franchise history do something unpopular and potentially devastating? And I don't think anyone here truly knows how Josh is seen by his teammates and the teams desire to trade him or his desire to leave as all of those could play a large part in his trade value.

i still think Cunningham's quotes on JJ are more important in that aspect. MC called Joe out the other day stating he isn't living up to the contract and they'd be okay moving him and going in a new direction running the offense through Horford or even Josh.

So thinking that through, bringing in a pick n' roll pg, 3 point shooters, defensive center and running the offense through Pnrolll ala Malone/Stockton with spot up shooters and a defensive center may be the way they are moving.....if the Josh thing goes down, then I think this is just step one and it's a full remake.

You can't trade Hinrich to the Magic as the salaries are off by 7 million and change. We'd have to take back another big long term contract from them and I don't see that happening. Plus you're now cutting Dallas out of the deal which would be against this rumor, even if the rumor is baseless.

you're right, I wasn't even thinking from the angle of it matching up at that point with 3 teams. I was just disgusted at the lack of need at SF being filled.

When Josh Smith is gone, I think a lot of people on this board are going to wake up about 7 games into the season and admit they miss him.

I think there may be credence but I think the players discussed are wrong.

The core of the deal for us is getting 5 players for 2 (agree that either Marvin or Hinrich will not be in the final deal). My assumption is if they are giving up Nelson, it's Hinrich that's being traded.

So we would line up

Heywood/Zaza/Orton

Horford/Anderson

Williams

Johnson/

Nelson/Teague/Beaubois

2 draft picks signed means 12 roster slots filled with 6 million under the LT.

Resign Craw at 5 million per.

With the 26th pick, there are about 3 serviceable but not great SF's that would be available around there. Best of which is Kyle Singler at Duke.

Now looking at this trade, we are worse...decidedly worse defensively. Maybe better rebounding, better offensive point guard play.

Now look at what we just did for Orlando.

Howard/Clark

Smith/Bass

Turkoglu/Q.Richardson

J.Richardson/Reddick

Hinrich/Arenas

That team can compete for a title. Defensively with Howard/Smith at the 4/5 and Hedo's length and Hinrich at the 1, they'd be ridiculous. Offensively, with Howard drawing double teams, Smith cutting or cleaning up misses makes them unstoppable inside.

http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5902907

Congratulations on a successful trade.

Due to Atlanta and Milwaukee being over the cap, the 25% trade rule is invoked. Atlanta and Milwaukee had to be no more than 125% plus $100,000 of the salary given out unless trade exceptions were used for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Atlanta Trade Breakdown

Change in Team Outlook: -1.4 ppg, +1.0 rpg, and -0.5 apg.

Incoming Players

Andrew Bogut

26.5 year old , 7-0, 245 lb C from Utah

12.8 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 2.0 apg in 35.3 minutes

Carlos Delfino

28.5 year old , 6-6, 230 lb G from Fortitudo Bologna (Italy)

11.5 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.3 apg in 32.5 minutes

Outgoing Players

Marvin Williams

25 year old , 6-9, 230 lb F from North Carolina

10.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.4 apg in 28.7 minutes

Al Horford

25 year old , 6-10, 245 lb C-F from Florida

15.3 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 3.5 apg in 35.1 minutes

That's pulling from Horfs old salary this year. For trade purposes we are on next year. Horf making 12 mil...Marvin 7.5. Bogut making (thought he made less) 12.1 mil in 2011-2012, Delfino making 3.5....so 3.9 million apart.

Atlanta would be taking back 3.9 million less in Salary with this trade...not sure who's exception would be used. Given Horf's O (marketability too) is better than Bugut's and Marvin > Delfino at both ends of the floor (except 3's)...it would probably net the 8th pick too. I can't see Milwaukee doing it though.

If you watch the Michael Cunningham video article on the main page...MC is pushing the narrative that Joe isn't living up to his contract and the Hawks may want to build the team around Al or Josh.

Don't be surprised if they are calling about Joe. With 2 top 4 draft picks and some salary flexibility they may be willing to give the Hawks expirings for Joe and Marvin.

Horford should not be untouchable. Moreover, BYC is something that can be taken care of with a trade with the right team. Moreover, Horf could help us out of Marv's bad contract.

AND

Horf has the most value. He's newly signed and it's a reasonable signing and he's a 2 time allstar with no personality quirks.

A trade could be: Horf/Marvin/2 2nd rounders for Bogut/Delfino/#8.

I'm having a hard time with that. That might be the best trade scenario I've seen from you in a while. Bogut = better interior D, better inside scoring, but worse 5 feet away from the basket. I'm not sure it could get us 8 but maybe.

ah...just figured it out. The salary's don't match by about 5 million.

Players can't be accused of tampering.

Remember the summit last year...

Amare, Joe, Lebron, Bosh, Wade, and Melo...

It's a foregone conclusion, that if we trade for Horf, it won't be Joe going. Horf is going to be going for several reasons. First Youth. Second, position replacement. Third, Latino connections. Fourth 2 time allstar. Joe has a pretty resume but he's virtually a Hawk for life. Orlando will not give up a young Dwight for an older Joe. They give up Dwight, they are in a semi rebuild mode.

I often forget that Horf is technically a latino connection player. That I will grant you but that makes him more of Houston/Miami/LA type of player.

As far as the Joe thing goes, you are right but I was speaking "over the top" so to speak. Showing that you could give them tons of value and take away a headache and they still would not trade him inside the division. Even more importantly, they would be less inclined to trade him for Horford because you really can't leave Josh/Howard and JJ on the same team. I would submit that Howard/Josh/JJ, trumps Lebron/Wade/Bosh because rebounding and defense wins championships. Even more so, having Dwight playing the middle makes Jeff Teague a 10 assist a game guy. You can't front Teague on drives to the lane because he'll just dump it to Howard when you double off.....Having a 3 point threat, other offensive option in Joe would make Dwight nearly unstoppable. I just can't see Orlando handing us 60 win seasons like that.