thecampster

Notice the effect of my statement. An obvious exxageration and lampooning. Your comments on Teague and Hinrich are so far of a reach that they seem just the same. I love Teague man. I think in 2 years he will be the real deal but there is a reason that 1 year college point guards rarely succeed out of college. The BBIQ required to play the point in the NBA is so much higher than any other position on the floor it's unreal. As shown by the change in the team by just removing Bibby's SPF-3 level defense from the floor, the team is playing out of it's mind defensively. The same is true on the other end of the floor. When Bibby, Crawford, Joe and at times Teague were running the squad, our bigs eventually went rogue and just started running the break themselves (or worse yet playing facilitator at the top of the key during half court sets) because they could not trust the Guards to beat them down the floor and or give the ball up to a finisher at that end. On what other team in the league are the Center and PF the most effective at running the break? There was a play tonight where Hinrich was on the right side of the floor, took the screen from Josh and drove right. He pulled the Double and didn't even have the ball. He had discretely bounce passed the ball behind his back to Josh on the pick and pop. Josh actually missed the shot because he had no rhythm. When the bounce was head right up into his hands he had a look of absolutely shock on his face that the return pass was there so quickly and on the money. He lazied into position assuming he would have time before getting a return. You can't fault Hinrich. He is just so far ahead of that part of the game right now that it is he that looks out of sync at times. in time, our studs will mesh with him at the point and things will get downright Globetrotter for short stretches (you've seen some of that already). If you truly love Teague that much than you should be loving this trade. Most PGs in the game have some form of serious flaw in their game. Nash is a weak in a number of defensive areas. Some are bad outside shooters. Some are below average passers, foul prone, etc. In Kirk you have good at all, master of none PG. But he has no glaring deficiency. Teague can truly learn from him by guarding him in practice, working with him in drills on the side, picking his brain, etc. Your boy's best friend should be Kirk Hinrich because it's from learning from someone fundementally sound like Kirk that JT will take that step to having a 12 year career as a starter instead of going the way of Salim.

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Even with Bibby/Mo and all the injuries, we were 7th best in the league in points allowed at 95.5. Since adding Kirk, playing Teague and losing those 2 we are giving up 81 points a game (on the road no less). In front of us are: Boston - 91.2 Chicago - 92.5 New Orleans - 92.6 Milwaukee - 92.9 Orlando - 94.1 Miami -94.4 If we keep this up we could finish top 5 defense.

A couple of thoughts there. yes he was that bad defensively. Yes, Mo Evans was also part of the problem defensively. Maybe the second biggest part (bigger than Craw). Think in your head..when was the last true steal Mo got? Yes, Al, Marvin, Josh, Joe are that good defensively. playing 4 on 5 our defense was good enough. that's why everyone yelling to trade Josh, Marvin was so frustrating. They really do have that kind of a defensive impact...so much so as to make up for Bibby being a broken screen door.

Diesel, some of the guys and I discussed him at length 2 year ago in a thread where I didn't want to overpay but everyone in the discussion was in complete agreement that he would make us light years better. The best analogy I can make relates to baseball, how a quick worker on the mound keeps the infielders on their toes and reduces errors while never letting the batters get comfortable in the box. This is the effect Hinrich has on a game. Just for giggles...he played 16 minutes last night...8/3/3. 32 minutes (like Bibbs/Jamal) and that would be 16 pts/6 assists/6 rebounds. I know that doesn't equate but you see the effect. One play last night Josh started to lead the break and Kirk caught him by mid court and demanded the ball. I almost fell off the couch. You never realize the effect of players on everyone on the floor until someone else comes in and changes the mentality. I can't wait till April when he's in full charge and has everyone's respect. Kirk was born for LD's offense.

I was talking about this in the trade quotes. We are so used to seeing Horf/Marvin/Josh rotate to help Bibby that we didn't realize how much more effective they would be when allowed to man their positions normally.

As I've said multiple times before. Kirk is known more for one thing than any other...Making the people around him better.

forget it...found my own answer So for example (if I understand this right), the Hawks could waive Etan Thomas (1,223,166 million) to move under the Luxury tax (once a year deal) and then sign a different waived player to a vet minimum deal if it helps them. So going off "MRNiques" list one could possibly be added if we waived someone to make room for their vet minimum if they took that to play.

MrH...a question or 2...if they waived someone (say Etan)....does that affect that luxury tax situation? Especially if that player is picked up.

27 minutes a game...1.8 blocks almost 8 boards and 13.4 points...give him 35 minutes and it's 2.4 blocks and 10.4 rebounds...17 points. He's just a scary shot blocker and big enough to guard the centers that kill us.

Anyone not voting Hibbert is thinking very small picture. Hibbert is the best, most impactful player of the lot.

Per the guys on Mayhem in the AM, the plan is a lineup of Hinrich Crawford JJ Smith Horford Bringing Marvin and Zaza first off the bench. Collins may start on big lineups. Change in personnel is they wish to run people out of the building (ie...Bibby couldn't). Anyone else hear anything else similar with Hinrich/Crawford starting together?

They were pitted against each other for the starter role, which Hinrich won.

OMG, Hinrich is not a combo guard. He has been forced to play the 2, but the only thing about him that is combo is his height (6'4"). He is a pass first, floor vision, ball handling, man up D poing guard. Quit reading ESPN columnists for all your insight.

Seriously man, have you ever seen him play just the point. I've laid out every statistical reason why you are wrong on this. Take some time and see how it goes. Give him 5-10 games to adjust and then start grading him on what you see then.

For those that don't understand how Hinrich makes us better, I'm going to lay out floor impact for you. Offense - prediction improvement of 5-7 points a game. Fast break opportunities. Kirk's better defense on the other end of the floor should lead to a couple of fast break opportunities a game. JJ - JJ will not have to create his shot as often (let's say 30% less often). Kirk's ability to penetrate even on an average level will force opposing points to respect him and keep opposing C/PF's from cheating over toward Joe on the wing. This will give JJ a little more room to get to the lane/come off screens for a catch and shoot. Marvin - Maybe the biggest recipient of improvement from the change. Kirk's crossover, use of picks and length creates opportunities for slashers going to the rim. Marvin could receive 1-3 more passes moving toward the basket a game. Bibby's height was a hinderance to this effect as small point guards must create space with speed (something Bibby lacked) to create passing lanes in traffic. Additionally, penetration increases the amount of time a player like Marvin will have to line up his jumpers. I contend Marvin being hurried on his long jumpers was as much of an issue as confidence and talent. Josh/Al - Requiring less top side screens, less full length of the court screens for advancing the ball, less isolation to get their shots should do wonders for Josh's FG% and Al's touches. Bench - I fully expect the play of the starters to rub off on the scrubs and most importantly Jeff Teague. Jeff has been watching the polar opposite of himself talent wise and has learned little. Hinrich's talent is a closer match to Teague's and should serve as a better model. Defense - prediction - improvement varied depending on opponent. First of all, better offensive efficiency, should lead to less fast break opportunities for the opposition every game. JJ - No longer saddled with having to guard the opposition's best guard by default will simplify the defensive assignments for JJ. Giving him fresher legs and better focus on the other end of the floor. Less switching and more passing means more opportunities for steals and equals more jump shots / less slashing for JJ's man to guard. Marvin - probably the least benefit as he was not used to switch or guard much due to Bibby's deficiencies. Josh - biggest recipient. Not having to step out constantly to stop penetration should give Josh more block opportunities as he's in better position to guard his man and get rebounds. Al - Same answer as Josh. Bench - When Bibby was on the floor with bench (especially with Jamal), it was a horrific site. With no natural second team shot blocker, teams ran at us at will with their second units. When Kirk is on the floor and now without Mo Evans and Bibby, penetration should be stopped long before the circle on a much more consistant basis.

That's okay...current rumor is Battier to Memphis for Thabeet and a number one. Yes, that's right...Memphis is considering giving away a first round pick to get rid of Thabeet.

Cleveland could use him (and Marvin). Same with Milwaukee. But the Kaman trade makes the most sense. Personally, I'd love a deal that nets us Bogut but I think that's just a pipe dream. Another possibility is Okafur. But in all those scenarios, adding Marvin or others to the mix is required and unfortunately next year's cap situation is a problem. Next year, right now, the Hawks have 64 million committed to just 7 players. Any multiplayer deal that brought us back 1 player or a player plus an expiring is not healthy. This is JJ's contract and Jamal's non contract coming back to bite us. Keepers not under contract next year (and not included in the figure that is just 8 million short of the luxury tax are) Crawford, Wilkens, Armstrong, Collins, Sy. I'm not saying we keep them all but Marvin's 7.5 million and JJ's 18 million next year (combined) make up 47% of our current cap and 37% of the current luxury tax. That makes it very hard to get better or trade for someone. Trading 2 contracts for one would only magnify the cap problem. Best I can figure, we're about 4 million short of retaining Jamal as things stand (figuring Jamal gets 7.5-8 million next year from someone). IMHO, the best answer is to use the 2013 first, Marvin/Zaza for Bogut and filler or Crawford, Marvin, Zaza for . But I can't see Milwaukee going for it. Best possible for Milwaukee I could come up with is something like this http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5865623 they get younger, better but lose a franchise big man. We are swapping maggette from marvin in this deal and Zaza/craw for bogut...other is just filler. Now this could work but Milwaukee would want a pick and it would have to be 2013's now. FYI, I'm not saying this is going to happen, I'm just pointing out how tricky JJ/Marvin's contracts are making things now.

the last 4 games he's shooting 37.5 % on 10 shots a game. His season average is 10.1 shots a game shooting 46%....so he's not shooting more. On a statistical basis, he's missing .75 more shots a game. So if .1 shots less is more and .75 shots less made is struggling, then the answer to your question is yes.

Everything you need to know about Kirk Hinrich you can get from looking at Ben Gordon. Ben Gordon in Chicago shot 45.5, 43.4, 45.5 his last 3 years playing with Kirk and averaged 21.4, 18.6, 20.7 ppg. He went to detroit the next year and has dropped to 13.8 and 12.7 points per game the last 2 years and shot 41.6 and 44.3 % in 6-7 less minutes a game. His assist numbers have dropped from 3.6, 3.0 and 3.4 to 2.2 this year as have his FT attempts and other vital stats. His 3 point % dropped dramatically (due to having to create his own 3 point shot). Kirk makes those around him better.

One more thought on this. A first round...22-25 pick next year would cost about 1.5 - 2 million against the cap. A vet minimum 5 year player about 1 million. This deal (although only slightly) increases the chances of bringing back Jamal. Being forced to take a draft pick (and the lower we would have fallen, the higher the pick), could cause negative cap karma in future years. The higher the first round pick, the higher the cap hit. AH might be the better one to speak on this but I believe the breakout was pick 27 where you start to see a cap benefit to take a vet minimum player over a rookie for Luxury Tax threshold teams. Last year, Jordon Crawford at 27 was slotted at just over 1 million. The number 22 pick 1.254 million. By contrast, Delonte West is making 500K

This year's PER in similar minutes. Hinrigh 13.72 Bibby 11.52 Offensively, Hinrich was a 2.2 better PER player. Now consider he was playing out of position and shooting a lower 3 PT %. Combine that with the defensive improvement and it's not unreasonable to make the deal. This is not a lateral move. This is a vast improvement at the SG position in defense and according to the PER...a 15-20% improvement in the player on offense. Something you may not be considering. Bibby was only going to get older and slower next year and was stuck under contract with the team for one more year. Hinrich's deal gets smaller next year, not bigger.

actually it is...he picks it up before the first step...then the pro hop isn't proper..counts as 2 because he brings the feet up and down at different times.

Once again, for those that don't know Kirk Hinrich. In December with John Wall inactive and Gilbert Arenas being traded, Kirk was returned to him natural position of Point guard. Here are his stats for the next 4 games. MPG - 39.25 PPG - 16.25 APG - 9.75 RPG - 4.75 SPG - 2.00 T/O - 3.5 FG% - 44.4 3PT% - 1 of 8 for 12.5% FT's - 16 of 18 for 89% (4.5 FT/Game) That's Hinrich when he gets to play the point. Will he match that for us? Probably not since we have 3 legit scorers on the floor at one time. But you can not afford to play off the PG anymore and you can't afford to just run at our PG anymore when you are on O. 3 of those 4 games were against CHI/MIA/SAS.

Does it not ring a bell with anyone that both the Lakers and Celtics were trying to get this guy? The two best teams in NBA history do not make that many trade deadline mistakes.