thecampster

I was talking about this in the trade quotes. We are so used to seeing Horf/Marvin/Josh rotate to help Bibby that we didn't realize how much more effective they would be when allowed to man their positions normally.

As I've said multiple times before. Kirk is known more for one thing than any other...Making the people around him better.

forget it...found my own answer So for example (if I understand this right), the Hawks could waive Etan Thomas (1,223,166 million) to move under the Luxury tax (once a year deal) and then sign a different waived player to a vet minimum deal if it helps them. So going off "MRNiques" list one could possibly be added if we waived someone to make room for their vet minimum if they took that to play.

MrH...a question or 2...if they waived someone (say Etan)....does that affect that luxury tax situation? Especially if that player is picked up.

27 minutes a game...1.8 blocks almost 8 boards and 13.4 points...give him 35 minutes and it's 2.4 blocks and 10.4 rebounds...17 points. He's just a scary shot blocker and big enough to guard the centers that kill us.

Anyone not voting Hibbert is thinking very small picture. Hibbert is the best, most impactful player of the lot.

Per the guys on Mayhem in the AM, the plan is a lineup of Hinrich Crawford JJ Smith Horford Bringing Marvin and Zaza first off the bench. Collins may start on big lineups. Change in personnel is they wish to run people out of the building (ie...Bibby couldn't). Anyone else hear anything else similar with Hinrich/Crawford starting together?

They were pitted against each other for the starter role, which Hinrich won.

OMG, Hinrich is not a combo guard. He has been forced to play the 2, but the only thing about him that is combo is his height (6'4"). He is a pass first, floor vision, ball handling, man up D poing guard. Quit reading ESPN columnists for all your insight.

Seriously man, have you ever seen him play just the point. I've laid out every statistical reason why you are wrong on this. Take some time and see how it goes. Give him 5-10 games to adjust and then start grading him on what you see then.

For those that don't understand how Hinrich makes us better, I'm going to lay out floor impact for you. Offense - prediction improvement of 5-7 points a game. Fast break opportunities. Kirk's better defense on the other end of the floor should lead to a couple of fast break opportunities a game. JJ - JJ will not have to create his shot as often (let's say 30% less often). Kirk's ability to penetrate even on an average level will force opposing points to respect him and keep opposing C/PF's from cheating over toward Joe on the wing. This will give JJ a little more room to get to the lane/come off screens for a catch and shoot. Marvin - Maybe the biggest recipient of improvement from the change. Kirk's crossover, use of picks and length creates opportunities for slashers going to the rim. Marvin could receive 1-3 more passes moving toward the basket a game. Bibby's height was a hinderance to this effect as small point guards must create space with speed (something Bibby lacked) to create passing lanes in traffic. Additionally, penetration increases the amount of time a player like Marvin will have to line up his jumpers. I contend Marvin being hurried on his long jumpers was as much of an issue as confidence and talent. Josh/Al - Requiring less top side screens, less full length of the court screens for advancing the ball, less isolation to get their shots should do wonders for Josh's FG% and Al's touches. Bench - I fully expect the play of the starters to rub off on the scrubs and most importantly Jeff Teague. Jeff has been watching the polar opposite of himself talent wise and has learned little. Hinrich's talent is a closer match to Teague's and should serve as a better model. Defense - prediction - improvement varied depending on opponent. First of all, better offensive efficiency, should lead to less fast break opportunities for the opposition every game. JJ - No longer saddled with having to guard the opposition's best guard by default will simplify the defensive assignments for JJ. Giving him fresher legs and better focus on the other end of the floor. Less switching and more passing means more opportunities for steals and equals more jump shots / less slashing for JJ's man to guard. Marvin - probably the least benefit as he was not used to switch or guard much due to Bibby's deficiencies. Josh - biggest recipient. Not having to step out constantly to stop penetration should give Josh more block opportunities as he's in better position to guard his man and get rebounds. Al - Same answer as Josh. Bench - When Bibby was on the floor with bench (especially with Jamal), it was a horrific site. With no natural second team shot blocker, teams ran at us at will with their second units. When Kirk is on the floor and now without Mo Evans and Bibby, penetration should be stopped long before the circle on a much more consistant basis.

That's okay...current rumor is Battier to Memphis for Thabeet and a number one. Yes, that's right...Memphis is considering giving away a first round pick to get rid of Thabeet.

Cleveland could use him (and Marvin). Same with Milwaukee. But the Kaman trade makes the most sense. Personally, I'd love a deal that nets us Bogut but I think that's just a pipe dream. Another possibility is Okafur. But in all those scenarios, adding Marvin or others to the mix is required and unfortunately next year's cap situation is a problem. Next year, right now, the Hawks have 64 million committed to just 7 players. Any multiplayer deal that brought us back 1 player or a player plus an expiring is not healthy. This is JJ's contract and Jamal's non contract coming back to bite us. Keepers not under contract next year (and not included in the figure that is just 8 million short of the luxury tax are) Crawford, Wilkens, Armstrong, Collins, Sy. I'm not saying we keep them all but Marvin's 7.5 million and JJ's 18 million next year (combined) make up 47% of our current cap and 37% of the current luxury tax. That makes it very hard to get better or trade for someone. Trading 2 contracts for one would only magnify the cap problem. Best I can figure, we're about 4 million short of retaining Jamal as things stand (figuring Jamal gets 7.5-8 million next year from someone). IMHO, the best answer is to use the 2013 first, Marvin/Zaza for Bogut and filler or Crawford, Marvin, Zaza for . But I can't see Milwaukee going for it. Best possible for Milwaukee I could come up with is something like this http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5865623 they get younger, better but lose a franchise big man. We are swapping maggette from marvin in this deal and Zaza/craw for bogut...other is just filler. Now this could work but Milwaukee would want a pick and it would have to be 2013's now. FYI, I'm not saying this is going to happen, I'm just pointing out how tricky JJ/Marvin's contracts are making things now.

the last 4 games he's shooting 37.5 % on 10 shots a game. His season average is 10.1 shots a game shooting 46%....so he's not shooting more. On a statistical basis, he's missing .75 more shots a game. So if .1 shots less is more and .75 shots less made is struggling, then the answer to your question is yes.

Everything you need to know about Kirk Hinrich you can get from looking at Ben Gordon. Ben Gordon in Chicago shot 45.5, 43.4, 45.5 his last 3 years playing with Kirk and averaged 21.4, 18.6, 20.7 ppg. He went to detroit the next year and has dropped to 13.8 and 12.7 points per game the last 2 years and shot 41.6 and 44.3 % in 6-7 less minutes a game. His assist numbers have dropped from 3.6, 3.0 and 3.4 to 2.2 this year as have his FT attempts and other vital stats. His 3 point % dropped dramatically (due to having to create his own 3 point shot). Kirk makes those around him better.

One more thought on this. A first round...22-25 pick next year would cost about 1.5 - 2 million against the cap. A vet minimum 5 year player about 1 million. This deal (although only slightly) increases the chances of bringing back Jamal. Being forced to take a draft pick (and the lower we would have fallen, the higher the pick), could cause negative cap karma in future years. The higher the first round pick, the higher the cap hit. AH might be the better one to speak on this but I believe the breakout was pick 27 where you start to see a cap benefit to take a vet minimum player over a rookie for Luxury Tax threshold teams. Last year, Jordon Crawford at 27 was slotted at just over 1 million. The number 22 pick 1.254 million. By contrast, Delonte West is making 500K

This year's PER in similar minutes. Hinrigh 13.72 Bibby 11.52 Offensively, Hinrich was a 2.2 better PER player. Now consider he was playing out of position and shooting a lower 3 PT %. Combine that with the defensive improvement and it's not unreasonable to make the deal. This is not a lateral move. This is a vast improvement at the SG position in defense and according to the PER...a 15-20% improvement in the player on offense. Something you may not be considering. Bibby was only going to get older and slower next year and was stuck under contract with the team for one more year. Hinrich's deal gets smaller next year, not bigger.

actually it is...he picks it up before the first step...then the pro hop isn't proper..counts as 2 because he brings the feet up and down at different times.

Once again, for those that don't know Kirk Hinrich. In December with John Wall inactive and Gilbert Arenas being traded, Kirk was returned to him natural position of Point guard. Here are his stats for the next 4 games. MPG - 39.25 PPG - 16.25 APG - 9.75 RPG - 4.75 SPG - 2.00 T/O - 3.5 FG% - 44.4 3PT% - 1 of 8 for 12.5% FT's - 16 of 18 for 89% (4.5 FT/Game) That's Hinrich when he gets to play the point. Will he match that for us? Probably not since we have 3 legit scorers on the floor at one time. But you can not afford to play off the PG anymore and you can't afford to just run at our PG anymore when you are on O. 3 of those 4 games were against CHI/MIA/SAS.

Does it not ring a bell with anyone that both the Lakers and Celtics were trying to get this guy? The two best teams in NBA history do not make that many trade deadline mistakes.

Don't respond till you've had time to think this through. The Carmelo trade created an interesting situation in Minnesota. In New York, Eddy Curry was left on the IR (ala speedy claxton) to collect the insurance. Per Minny's GM, Curry will either be traded or released. If Curry is released and assuming he's healthy, would you take him for the vet minimum for the year? 3 years ago before the injuries he was a 19 point, 7 rebound center. he's 290 lbs and is a big body that can eat up space in the middle moving Al and Josh down without giving up anyone.

Were you really watching the game tonight? 10 of 18 from the field....what did he do to lose us this game except lead the team in scoring???

you can't seriously be faulting him for that ? :white flag: Besides...Crawford traveled on the play :)

Hubie is one of the proven better NBA coaches of all time. You are not an NBA talent evaluator for a reason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubie_Brown Brown is a two-time NBA Coach of the Year, the honors being separated by 26 years. Brown is in the Basketball Hall of Fame. Brown then rejoined the NBA as head coach of the Atlanta Hawks, going 31-51 in his first season with the Hawks. But by the 1977-78 season, the Hawks had rebounded into a .500 team, finishing 41-41 and earning Coach of the Year honors for Brown. Continued to coach the Hawks, leading them to a Central Division Title in the 1979-80 season, However, by the 2004-05 season, there were again concerns about Brown's health and age. Brown was given medical clearance to start the season, but was forced to delegate much work to his assistant coaches, including his son, Brendan Brown. This led to an incident between Brendan Brown and Jason Williams when Williams snapped at Brown during the fourth quarter of a game early on in the season. Williams eventually apologized, but the Grizzlies were beginning to struggle during the season, starting 5-7. Brown then unexpectedly resigned from the Grizzlies on Thanksgiving Day, November 25, 2004. In a statement, he cited "unexpected health-related issues... And there is your reason he isn't an NBA coach. His only bad season as a coach was with the Knicks when Bernard King was lost for the season with a knee injury. this man knows what it takes to win.

(excuse the theme music) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_iFE7SEHNw&feature=related Things you should know about Kirk. VERY VERY VERY High BBIQ. Makes those around him better. Can create his own shot. Can create his own 3 shot. Good crossover. Great passing lanes defender. Career bests: PPG: 2007 - 16.6 ppg APG: 2004 - 6.8 APG RPG: 2005 - 4.0 RPG SPG: 2005 -1.6 SPG T/O: 2009 -1.5 T/O / G 3PT%: 2007 - 41.5% FG%: 2011 - 45.1% The "demise" of Hinrich began in 2007-2008 when the Bulls acquired Larry Hughes. This left the Bulls with Hughes, Ben Gordon, Chris Duhon and Kirk Hinrich. Hinrich's minutes dropped from 36 minutes to 29 minutes a game. The team did not earn a playoff birth and Scott Skiles lost his job. 2008-2009 was the first year of Derrick Rose which led to Hinrich heading to the bench. Prior to the 2007-2008 season, Hinrich's number were 15.1 PPG, 6.5 APG, 1.3 Steals, .3 blocks, 2.4 T/O. 41.2 percent shooting and 38% from 3 averaging 36 minutes a game (this was his first 4 years in the league). His reduction in production is directly related to 2 things...first...a move to combo guard instead of playing the 1 exclusively, 2nd a reduction in minutes due to acquired personnel/a few nagging injuries. His career per 36 is almost exactly his first 4 year averages. Feb 5th Kirk came off the bench against Atlanta for 13 points, 4 reb, 4 assists and 1 steal in 27 minutes. On Nov 25, he started at shooting guard and scored 8 points with 1 rebound and 1 assist in 24 minutes against the Hawks. On October 30 he started at SG alongside John Wall and scored 8 points, 3 rebounds and had 4 assist (3 steals) in 41 minutes. Summary, in 3 games against the Hawks he struggled to score when matched against JJ but still rebounded and had assists from the SG position and managed 4 steals. Kirk excels when he plays the point exclusively as shown by the first 4 years of his career. This is a great move guys.