thecampster

I would say that this is our time.

The matchups are:

Hawks vs. Magic.

Hawks vs. Bulls

Hawks vs. Celtics.

These are three contenders that we can beat.

In order to do that

Celtics must beat NY....then beat Miami (probably). I don't see it. I'm not sure they get by NY but I'm fairly positive they don't get past Miami

When Josh Smith attempts a 3 pointer, Hawks fans cringe. Do Laker fans get aggravated when Kobe attempts a 3pt shot?

Based on this season's "stats", they should scream "NO" when Kobe pulls up at the 3pt line.

Kobe

3Pt% .323

Josh

3Pt% .331

Stats may not lie, but they can't possibly tell the entire story or the history.

See, this is where I scratch my head.

Does this stat definitively stat that Josh Smith is a better 3 point shooter than Kobe? Of course not. But it's those that discount the stat as not telling that are just as frustrating.

When Josh takes the ball to the rim, and shoots 50%, he also draws fouls a certain percentage of the time. His EFG on this stat is 50% on 3's....but when including his foul shots drawn and made he's more like 62% on drives to the basket. He'll never draw a foul on 3's. So I completely understand the argument of Josh is better at driving to the basket (ie more efficient) and therefore should choose that over 3's. But if Josh is an efficient 3 point shooter on it's own (ie 33% or greater), it forces his man to step out on him some and changes the dynamic of the offensive set. This year, because of his improved jumper, the floor has spaced more. the same can be said for Al. So yes, this does have an impact on the floor. I don't think it should be eliminated from his shot rotation at all, but the problem this year has been that with that space opened, our softs have not taken advantage of the lanes provided and gotten to the glass. So any positive is lost. Additionally, this creates a situtation where the ball returns to Josh in the back half of the clock when time is running down.

I was looking at 82games.com and a large number of Josh's Shots are still at the end of the clock (46% in the last 8 seconds...22% in the last 4).

Sometimes you have to dig very deep to see if something (like shooting from the outside) is a problem or just a symptom. IMHO it's a symptom of Joe holding the ball and throwing off the timing of cuts and set plays. Fact is, when Joe is posting up an opposing guard and Al is under the basket, the other 3 players have to space and that is what is pushing Josh/Marvin out to the 3 point line.

From casual observation and wanting stats to back it up (not sure how), I see our offensive sets usually being more effective when we run pick and roll/pop at the elbow and or our 2 bigs posting up off circle and making choices. Not sure if there's a "player x initiated the play" stat.

Why measure? Just watch the games, observe, and give your opinion on what you see. Basketball is not a simple game. There's no way to accurately reduce it to a few simple numbers.

This is a big reason why I've gotten more and more into tennis rather than basketball. There simply aren't many statistics to worry about. The only analyses that mean anything come from simply watching the matches and forming opinions based on what you see. No one would dare try to look at a "box score" or a "stat sheet" and say they know something important based on it. I find it refreshing.

I understand the tennis thing. My favorite sport to participate in growing up was wrestling. Why? Because win or lose, there was very little in doubt. I either did good or not good enough. No one could take credit for my win or loss but me. Tennis is very much the same thing.

My least favorite growing up was football. Two out of three years I was MVP of my little league team. Over that stretch of time the team was 6 and 21. So even though my personal stats were awesome, we never even smelled the playoffs.

But I assume for sake of this thread we are talking about basketball. For me, the most misleading stat is Points Scored. For my example I'll use Scottie Pippen. In Jordan's last year before his first retirement, Pippen averaged 19.6 PPG. The next year without Jordan, Pippen scored 22.0 PPG. The difference was 1.5 more shots per game taken and a greater leeway to shoot the 3 (he shot 2.5 a game that year...less than 1 a game the previous year) and shot the 3 with a slightly higher percentage. Pippen was not a markedly better player that year. He was just utilized 10% more.

So too it is with the Hawks. Joe is not the leading scorer because he's better. FG% would speak otherwise. He's the leading scorer because he takes more shots a game than anyone else. This is evidenced by the increase of points scored by Josh Smith in the second half of the season. Josh's shots per game went up...his FG% was mostly unchanged...he scored more.

So PPG is in my opinion a system stat except in a few small exceptions. But RPG/APG/SPG are a constant by position. On average, a typical power forward gets a similar number of chances for a rebound based solely on his position on the floor. A point guard a similar chance at Assists....etc. Those 3 stats are very telling within a position. For example, many centers have very low points and turnover numbers. This is due to them not having the ball in their hands often due to skillset. Other Centers (Al or Dwight for examples) have point guard level turnovers but PPG and rebounds to match. This is because they are trusted based on their skillset to post up and pass out of the double team.

Stats tell an awful lot, be it in small samples or large samples. My favorite use of stats are to tell if an opposing player is playing hurt. If a consistent Blocks/Steals guy (ie Josh) has a marked fall off in production from an obvious game time line....it would be very telling he has a nagging leg injury. 100% accurate, of course not, but over the course of time stats tend to give a very accurate account of ability and/or hustle.

I actually don't disagree with the substance of this post (i.e., that JJ shoots too many jumpers and doesn't get to the line enough). What I disagree with is the idea that "stats don't lie." I've seen lots of variations of that phrase around NBA blogs recently, and it's somewhat frustrating and somewhat amusing. I will now go off on a rant about why statistics DO lie (or rather, can be used in a highly misleading fashion).

One of my favorite quotes is this from Mark Twain's autobiography: "There are 3 kinds of lies: Lies, damned lies, and statistics." The idea behind it is that because most people are either unwilling or unable to examine statistics in depth and reflect on their significance, the tendency is to give statistics way more weight than they deserve. Thus, you can find statistics to bolster pretty much any argument, however weak or strong.

That is especially true in basketball, where the only statistics available are variations or refinements of traditional box score stats (scoring, rebounding, assists, steals, blocks, turnovers, and fouls), which themselves are a terrible measure of what matters in basketball. First off, why does a block inherently matter more than many other good defensive plays, such knocking a ball loose from a player or forcing an opponent to take a contested, low percentage shot? Like blocks, those are things that can lead to a change of possession, but do not necessarily do so. Other statistics are highly arbitrary - who gets "credit" for a turnover is my favorite example. I'd say at least a quarter of turnovers are "credited" to a player who was not, in fact, most responsible for his team losing possession of the ball. Similarly, steals are often credited to a player who picks up a loose ball, even if the ball was knocked loose by someone else; rebounds are credited to the player who ultimately gains possession of the ball, even if the ball simply fell into that players lap after it was tipped to him by a teammate.

What qualifies as an "assist" is perhaps the most arbitrary decision. How many dribbles does the receiving player have to take before it's not considered an assist by the passing player? And why doesn't a pass that leads to a teammate getting free throws qualify as an assist?

And of course, there are plenty of things that happen on the court that affect the box score statistics but that aren't directly factored into the equation. Shooting and passing stats don't reflect the amount of defensive attention players receive. I often point out that the people crowing about Josh's improved three point percentage relative to JJ don't take into account the fact that Josh's perimeter shots are nearly always wide open while JJ's are nearly always contested. Similarly, there is no stat that captures the effect of setting good screens to free a player up for an easy shot, making good passes that lead to assists (think of the 2-pass assist rule in hockey), or forcing a player into the teeth of the defense to help a teammate get a block or steal.

Considering how arbitrary and poor each individual statistic is, you can imagine how I feel about measures like PER, which basically just combine and assign arbitrary weights to a bunch of different box score statistics. Those "statistics" are a lie within a lie within a lie.

And THAT doesn't even get into how people can manipulate or misuse statistics. I've pretty much stopped bothering to point it out when someone around here posts statistics that just happen (purely coincidentally, I'm sure) not to include games or sets of games that would undermine their argument.

So yeah. Stats can, and often do, lie. In fact, there are probably more ways to lie using statistics than there are ways to lie using pretty much any other mode of persuasion. That's why I try hard not to crow about conclusions from any single statistic, or even sets of statistics.

So if statistics aren't to be believed, then how do you measure?

What you also left out in your samples were the actual teams we played during those stretches. It does matter.

Smith losses: Washington, Indiana, OKC, San Antonio (spurs were in a very long losing streak and struggling)

Smith Win: Chicago

Horford losses: New Orleans, PhiladelphiaHorford wins: Charolette, Washington, Portland

Johnson losses: Boston, Miami, San Antonio, DetroitJohnson Wins: Cleveland, Philadelphia, Memphis, Indiana, New Jersey, Orlando

the sampling only furthers the point. without Joe we lost to teams that would have been close games (sans detroit). But even without Joe 3 of the 6 team we beat are EC playoff teams this year.

now without Horford, we lose to the same Philly team we beat without Joe.

Without Smith, we lose to the same Indiana team we beat without Joe and are embarassed by Washington who we beat without Horford.

Every game is different so again this isn't scientific, it's just a small bit in the body of evidence that says Josh affects the game positively more than Joe and at least as much as Al.

there are other factors this obviously doesn't take into account like: who played hurt, who else was out, was the game on the road, back to backs....etc. But to anyone who watched that Washington game, the lack of interior D in the San Antonio game and who doesn't see the correlation, you just aren't paying attention to the defensive aspect of the game. An 11 point +/- in games he does not play in is significant.

I remember a long time ago Howard said he literally prayed that the Hawks would be able to draft him, and I remember CP3 also wanted the Hawks to draft him, and I'm sure they'd love to play together in Atlanta if it were possible . . . I just don't see how it's possible.

Getting even one of them probably isn't realistic, but if I could choose one I'd rather have Howard. If we could pair him with either Josh or Al at power forward, we'd have the most athletic 4-5 combo in the league by far. Al would be especially good because he has such a great jump shot and we would dominate the boards, but Josh would also be great - no one would want to come in the lane.

It's actually very possible.

1st, how to get Dwight.

This trade (IMHO) would have to include Joe Johnson and Al Horford and taking back a bad contract from Orlando. Combined, the 2 make $30, 038, 573 next year. Dwight is set to make 17.9 million. So at initial look, the Hawks need to swing back 12 million from Orlando. But Orlando will want to dump Gilbert Arenas in any such deal who is set to make 19.3 million. So we have a 7.3 million dollar vacancy. Add Marvin in the deal and you have the framework of a deal. Howard, Arenas, for Joe, Al, Marvin. There will have to be draft picks as Taking back Arenas is a negative. So let's assume a 1st from Orlando.

That one was easy in principle. Not entirely realistic as Arenas' contract is an albatross but let's work with it.

So now you have (assuming Crawford were resigned for the 7.5 million he's worth):

Howard/Pachulia

Smith

(Filler)

Crawford/Arenas

Hinrich/Teague

71.5 million in Salaries - The you can easily resign Hilton Armstrong, Damien Wilkens, Pape Sy and or sign and trade them later.

We in this scenario are extremely Guard heavy if trying to acquire Paul and are in need of 2 more players with no cap room.

This is where we move Arenas' contract and fill in the roster.

You would send Arenas and someone of value like Teague and Pachulia for a total salary sent of 26 million and take back CP3 and a combination of players that = the same (like Marco Belinelli, Aaron Gray and a resigned Carl Landry or Trevor Ariza. We'll use Ariza for sake of argument. To do this you really need to throw draft picks at NO. Orlandos from the first deal and one of yours and maybe a second. But assuming you can swing this, this is how the team looks.

Howard/Gray

Smith/Armstrong

Ariza/Wilkens/

Crawford/Belinelli

Paul/Hinrich/Sy

Not much in the way of draft picks in the future but you are rid of Marvin, Joe's contract, etc.

The starting 5 of Chris Paul, Jamal Crawford, Trevor Ariza, Josh Smith and Dwight Howard would be amazing. Defensively with Smith and Howard the middle is owned. Outside shooting is solid...perimeter defense is better than average. Hinich/Belinelli off the bench can lead any group.

I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN. I'm just saying it could be done if all parties were motivated.

FYI...

Orlando would be a very good / efficient team after the trade....scary good.

The Hornets know they aren't going anywhere and would just be looking for value. They've peaked.

LMAO! Camp, the master of selective stat sampling to make his point. 3 of those five games occurred recently at the end of the season when nothing matters for the team. Before that we were 1-1 so by my Camp math we are a .500 team without Smoove and Jason Collins starting at C. God you supporters are so predictable. Like vultures looking for the first piece of carrion. We should create an Embattled Smoove section of the homecourt area where all of his blind supporters can preemptively and overreactively attack every perceived slight towards him.

Neg away.

Nice and simple. you select to exclude 3 end of the season games.

Last year Josh and Al only missed one game each....there is no sample there. Joe missed 3 and we were 2-1 in those.

The reality is simple. As currently constructed 2011. Joe Johnson fills a slot on the team. The team rises and falls with Josh and Al.

We've been arguing on this board for weeks about how much better off the team would be if we traded away Josh for a center.

We've argued for just as long about who the best player / most important player on the team is.

Well in a 5 game sample without Josh, the Hawks are 1-4.

The average game score is: 92.4 - 103.4.

With Josh, the Hawks are 43 -32

The average game score is: 95.4 - 95.3.

This is just one of a series of stats that show the importance of Josh to this team.

Without Joe in the lineup the team was 6-4.

Without Al in the lineup the team was 3-2.

Small sample for games without? Yes.

Still very telling? Absolutely!!!

I really didn't mean the last literal time he blocked a shot, as much as I meant why doesn't he block as many shots as he used to..

he's been playing on a bum knee bro. That's why he sat out the last game and why he was pulled the other night (it wasn't a benching).

I guarantee we take better shots and probably win the game without Josh. Trade this cancer.

how's that hopey changey stuff working out for you?

In Josh's defense, he is shooting a pretty good % this season on jumpers so it is a little unfair to say a person who has shot more efficiently on perimeter jumpers this season than Joe Johnson and Marvin Williams that they shouldn't "simply take" jumpers.

By way of comparison, Duncan takes 66% of his shots as jumpers and hasn't shot nearly as well this year as Josh.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10SAS20.HTM

Al Jefferson shoots 62% jumpers at .421 eft%.

http://www.82games.com/1011/10UTA13.HTM

Horford is the best in the NBA - not living up to that standard is not an indictment of someone's perimeter game but the fact remains that we need more interior scoring, more drawing contact, etc. and that the best candidates to provide that are JJ at SG not being doubled; Horford; and Josh. Marvin should be able to do this as a SF with his size but I don't see him having the game to go inside. Josh has a few moves inside and with his explosive leaping he can get to the rim with just a half of a step on his man. We need someone to provide that and while Josh is shooting marginally better on jumpers than JJ it doesn't mean that he isn't better utilized inside.

So these stats beg this question. Should Al Jefferson and Tim Duncan stop shooting jumpers and be benched if they do since they are shooting worse than Josh?

Hiccup! Pour another stiff one DJ. Hiccup!

Again I say, just look at the body of work from Feb 1st through tonight. Josh is not the problem.

This is absurd...selfish attitude? Like what do you mean? The other guys jack up perimiter shots like crazy and when Smoove shoots one he is selfish? Heck - ask Horford - you better be a little bit selfish on this team or you will never get a shot. Smoove is actually one of the better forwards in the league when it comes to assists.

The thing you Smoove H8ters CAN'T "get over" is that you are wrong. Dead arsed wrong in every argument you make.

How he treats his teammates? What would you know about that? How he treats his coaching staff? LOL - Zaza cussed at LD (F-Bomb I believe) the other night right on the court. This isn't tiddly winks...guys get jazzed every now and then. Most people understand these things.

You folks should just be honest and come right out and say that you don't like Smoove - no matter what he does. :kickcan:

Honestly DJ, I don't think many Hawks fans deserve the team they have.

6 years ago, the team was led by Al Harrington, Tyrone Lue and Antoine Walker and finished 13 and 69.

5 short years ago, the team was led by Joe Johnson and Al Harrington with Mike Woodson as the coach. The team finished with 26 wins and 56 losses.

4 years ago with Joe Johnson dominating the ball for 25 points and 20 shots a game, Josh, Josh and Marvin finally started. The team improved to 30 wins...yes, that's it...thirty wins. We had Zaza, we had Joe shooting 20 times a game and we finished 22 games under .500.

Finally Al showed up, we got a point guard.

Now we are perennial playoff contenders. The less Joe has scored over the years, the more we've won. The more Al and Josh have continued to dominate play, the more we've won. But we have people on the board who want to go back to Zaza at center, Josh and Marvin on the bench and Joe shooting 20+ times a game.

We don't deserve our 50 win team. Just one man's opinion. I think people around here don't remember what a 13 win season felt like.

Yes he is our best player. I think if he can do what he did lately which is be in the paint alot more REGARDLESS if he is a starting PF or SF then he will go to another level.

Careful man...I gave full statistical support in 2 separate threads and I'm still pull the knives out of my back. Some people just won't see it.

OK... Small technicality. We traded Long and Augmon to make room to get Deke. But you're right, he did sign here. 5 years 55 MILLION which, at the time, some thought we overpaid to get a C who did not have a strong offensive game.

Yep...

1. Petit

2. Nique

3. Deke

4. Joe

5. Smitty

And Joe doesn't have nearly the balanced cast and coaching that these other guys had.

Nique had Doc Rivers, Tree Rollins (and one time Moses and Theus.)>

Deke had Mookie, and Smitty.

Who wouldn't. That's not the argument. Not even a thought in the argument. The point is that NO FA has wanted to play in Atlanta (without being overpaid) since the freakin 80s.

Volume shooting does not make someone top 5. He's not even currently performing top 2 on this team.

one other way of looking at this is in order to appease howard to get him to stay in orl, they may come knocking looking to trade for josh. they would be in a desperate mood to do that, so are there any major pieces on their roster we could try to screw them out of for smoove? for all the smoove haters, this could be a prime way to get over market value for him through a trade.

i'd rather have dwight here, but trading away josh is an option, too. jus' saying.

Reason 2 for Dwight coming here is it's his home town.

I'm sure Smoove would have to have something to do with calling him.

The answer is very simple. Given our current contract commitments, you won't be able to get him without either

A. A sign and trade of Dwight for Al Horford and Filler

B. A sign and trade of Dwight and filler for Joe Johnson.

C. A multi-team trade involving Dwight, Joe or Al and lots of little pieces we don't have.

Addendum: Remember that one of the major allures of playing in Atlanta for Dwight is playing with Josh.

There are a lot of junk formula that basically add up all the countable stats and use that to evaluate player performance and this looks like one of them. To me, it looks like a very raw (and thereby even less valuable) PER.

points + offensive rebounds + .75 defensive rebounds + steals + blocks + assists....

That is junk without meaningful explanations as to why those numbers predict good performance going forward, why they are weighted like they are, etc.

Then layering in the salary numbers while treating them like free market economy numbers without taking into account the fact that there are contract minimums and maximums, etc. just compounds the error.

Looking year over year, the variation is pretty stark:

Rajon Rondo 2009-10 #3, 2010-11 #22

David Lee 2009-10 #10, 2010-11 #37

Monta Ellis 2009-10 #77, 2010-11 #21

Joe Johnson 2009-10 #28, 2010-11 #60

Al Jefferson 2009-10 #42, 2010-11 #16

Are these guys that different from last year? Elton Brand or Michael Beasley I get. But these guys haven't changed thaat much so I question the worth of the statistic just like I would question ranking guys by total point scored to determine how good a player they are. The number tells you something but what does it tell you? Reina seems to make no effort to describe the limitations of his "statistics."

Let's single out an example.

Kyle Lowry

#138

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerrankings.php?season=2009-2010&filter=all&highlight=

2009-10

15.5 PER

.126 WS/40

13.5 pp36

.536 ts%

5.4 rp36

6.7 ap36

1.3 sp36

2010-11

#42

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerrankings.php?season=2010-2011&filter=all&highlight=

16.6 PER

.128 WS/40

16.6 pp36

.553 ts%

4.4 rpg36

7.1 ap36

1.5 sp36

Which of these numbers tells you the most about how much a player has improved or regressed over the two seasons? I'll give you a hint as the number that tells you the least.

But the numbers bear out similarly when looking at PER

AL 19th

Josh 36

Joe 73

As far as are the players that much different - Joe has had a reduction in FG%, 3PT%, FT%, Rebounds, Points, steals and .1 more T/O a game so yes...it is that much different.

Under this system:

Kevin Love (#1) > Dwight Howard (#3) & Lebron James (#2)

Zach Randolph (#8) > Dwayne Wade (#9) > Derrick Rose (#10)

Josh Smith (#17) > Kobe Bryant (#18)

Kyle Lowry > Ray Allen, Stephen Curry, Danny Granger, Chauncey Billups, Jrue Holliday, etc.

This looks like an arbitrary and flawed metric by my eyeball test.

Actually, I would submit to you that although the metric is flawed (all are), you could easily say the metric is a sampling system. +/- error kind of a thing.

As I said earlier, rebounds are always going to be weighed too heavily. But you can't discount them. Where Howard gets hurt and why he isn't 1st is his missed free throws.

Lebron gets hurt on FG% because he's fouled going to the basket a lot which generates FG misses and FT misses. Same with Kobe.

But if you consider it as slightly flawed, you find Al and Josh in the top 20 and then you +/- however you want. But you find Joe far down in the 60's. It just goes to show that he is not anywhere near where his contract says he is.

and by the way, it doesn't rate best/worst player. It rates floor impact. Kevin Love's floor impact for Minnesota is beyond measure.

Posted from http://basketball.realgm.com/src_fromtherafters/138/20080109/the_reina_value/

System provided by Christopher Reina

FIC

Here is the formula I use to determine the FIC:

(Points

+ Offensive Rebounds

+ .75 Defensive Rebounds

+ Assists

+ Steals

+ Blocks

- .75 Field Goal Attempts

- .375 Free Throw Attempts

- Turnovers

- .5 Personal Fouls)

Now, here is how Reina Value is calculated:

With some context given to the statistic used to rank players, here is the crux of what the Reina Value actually is:

Players are ranked from highest to lowest by the total FIC for the season, not per 40 minutes or per game, which I decided to do because players are only valuable when they are on the floor.

Beside each player?s actual salary, we slide in raw salary figures, ranked top to bottom, which determines their ?deserved? salary. We use the actual salaries because players deserve whatever their agents can negotiate and GMs/owners can afford to pay.

The player who has the highest FIC receives the highest ?deserved? salary. The player with the second highest FIC receives the second highest salary. The player with the hundredth highest FIC receives the hundredth highest salary.

We then calculate the percentage increase or decrease from the actual and deserved.

If Dwight Howard, who is making a little over $6 million in 2007-2008, is ranked first using the FIC, his ?Reina Value? would be Kevin Garnett?s $23.7 million salary, making his difference 291.9%.

Conversely, if Stephon Marbury is ranked 139th and his actual salary is just over $19 million, he?d be in line to make about $5 million. His percentage difference, therefore, would be -73%.

By using the Reina Value to examine the rosters of all 30 teams, it soon becomes clear which GM's are getting favorable returns and which players are out/under performing their contracts.

I find it to be a fairly solid metric.

Yeah. Because stats tell the whole story.

Reina is contrived directly off of FIC.

The author tries to not skew for rebounds but it's hard not to. The ratio still skews against volume shooters.

I am sorry I didn't post a link to values:

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_playerrankings.php

Joe's number is down because the formula accurately weighs against volume shooting and not getting to the free throw line.

I thought I'd do some digging....light digging.

Checking Josh, Al and Joe per their FIC40 and Reina values (FIC is Floor Impact per 40 minutes. Reina is value for their contract.)

Al has an FIC40 of 18.2 and a Reina Value of 217% above Salary.

Josh has an FIC40 of 16.2 and a Reina Value of 40% above Salary.

Joe has an FIC 40 of 12.6 and a Reina Value of 37% below Salary.

What this means.

Al makes 5,444,857 but is performing at $17,260,197

Josh makes 11,600,000 but is performing at $16,240,000

Joe makes 16,324,500 but is performing at $10,284,435

yep, been like that for a while. I thinks it's cuz they offer the same skillset,Joe is jus more agressve and gets more oppurtunities. If Marv took/was given 15+ shots a game like Joe he would avg similar stats scoring wise based on his percentages.

And Marvin doesn't pull up before contact so he gets to the line much more.

Tonight was case in point. He played an All-Star caliber game, and would have had just an off-the-charts night if only he hadn't taken and missed 8 perimeter jumpers.

If Josh cut the jumpers and the "Imma run the break" moments, 80% of my complaints about him would cease (the other 20% would be his on-ball defense and occasional decisions to whine at the refs and/or loaf through the offense). He's 6'9, strong as an ox, and one of the most explosive players in the league. He could dominate if he recognized that and made his living within 10 feet of the basket. But it’s been 7 years, and he doesn’t get that. Instead, he wants to prove his doubters wrong. Rather than playing to his strengths, he tries to prove he has no weaknesses. It’s sad, frustrating, and infuriating.

See, this is the part that frustrates people the most though on the other side of this argument. the guy grabs 18 rebounds and puts out 8 assists and there are numerous people in this thread (and every other one) being far more critical than you are.

On a night that Josh was 2 assists short of a triple double and 2 rebounds short of 20, people are still hacking on him. They seem to find the reason to dislike the guy instead of appreciate that he's a Hawk. There are a whole lot of people in Cleveland that would take him right now. Half the teams in the league would take him in a heartbeat and give up plenty to do it. But we as Hawks fans would rather beat in to the ground his deficiancies.

Playing the comparison game....who is this player?

The year he was traded his stats were:

26.0 ppg

44% FG%,

29% 3pt %.

6.5 rebounds,

2.3 assists,

.4 bpg

2.3 t/o

Although an exceptional scorer and athlete, he was a below average defender and lazy rebounder who was eventually traded for a more team oriented player to improve his team's chances in the playoffs.

---------------

That player.....Dominique Wilkins.

The only numbers in that set better than Josh's this year is PPG and .4 t/o a game and Josh is a superior defender.

I would really like to see people stop and recognize what we have and stop pushing to see another great player shipped out of Atlanta.

I'll go with this line up- pg-Hinrich-sg-Crawford-sf-Williams-pf-Horford-c-ZaZa, and bring Josh off the pine only as a PF with Teague , Wilkens and Collins. Just to shake things up a bit for this game.

I literally laughed out loud when I read this.