thecampster

Al's 6-14 tonight so far Jack.

honestly, anyone who is dissing this trade has never seen Hinrich play. He is an all-around player and not a one trick pony. We didn't need an offensive star...we score plenty...we needed someone to stop the other team's point.

Giving up Mo Evans = an improvement (give me Damien off the bench any day). I'm going to assume Mo was getting so much burn as an attempt to up his value. Evans = 6'6 - Armstrong 6'11 Bibby = 5'11" - Hinrich 6'3 We just got taller. Hinrich - Better penetrator, better defender, better free throw shoot, better at drawing fouls. Bibby - Better 3 point shooter. On the floor differences - Joe has to handle the ball less. We don't need to drop a second person back to lay screens for Bibby bringing up the ball. Hinrich will get out and lead the break. Hinrich will stay in front of his man half the time and be a harder person to shoot over all the time meaning less need for our bigs to leave their man to help defend. Hinrich will be the one chasing the better guard of the other team, thereby giving JJ better legs throughout the game. Anyone who doesn't see this as an extreme improvement isn't looking. Now for the other part of the trade....the cost. Bibby - 5-6 million a year...1 year left Mo Evans - 2.5 million a year .... expiring J Crawford = 1-3 million a year 4 years remaining. Hinrich - 9 million (8 million next year as the contract was front loaded...he would be only 1.7 million more next year than Bibby) - 1 year remaining. Armstrong - 1 million a year....expiring. The net effect on the cap next year is 0....Armstrong's expiring means we are only losing 1.5 million of Mo's expiring. That just happens to be J Crawford's salary. So when you consider Hinrich's salary goes down next year, the net trade is: Bibby, J Crawford (who isn't playing), a first next year (probably 22-25) for Hinrich (which is a bigger expiring in 2012) and a bench slot for Pape Sy and playing time for Wilkens. Given our lineup is set at 1-4 now the next year, the pick had very little chance of being an impact player for 2 years (Hinrich will resign cheaper when his deal is done). Our only need is now at Center and the 22nd pick in the draft is not going to net you a starting center either in trade or application. This trade is a win both financially and most definately on the floor.

A more accurate statement is Lamar Odom owns Josh. I don't know why, he just always has. Nire's right though....that was a pretty sad attempt at comedy. I challenge anyone making these "Josh...BBall IQ threads" to look at it this way. The next time you see one of those...see if you see Josh looking at the player (typically Mo Evans) he was passing to and see if he's got a look of disdain on his face. Or when you see someone miss a defensive assignment on a penetrator being funneled left or right. You'll see that same look. Go back to the 2nd quarter of the game tonight. You'll see a play where Crawford is trying to establish something on the right corner of the free throw line...he is doubled. Josh yells at him "no" and then tells him to reset it. There was a play on and instead of moving the ball as they were supposed to be...either Jamal blew past his pass point or whoever was in that corner with Jamal didn't rotate out. Josh called for the play to be reset. Then called for and got the ball...reset a new play on the left side of the floor (this was the play before the assist to Marvin for a dunk). I can't count the number of times I've seen Josh try to lead/create with Mo like he does with Marvin or Al and Mo turns away from the pass. I see more of a transitional element to the team right now. There are players on the team "Al, Josh, Bibby, Marvin, Zaza" that are all trying to play the same way...push the ball up the floor, move the basketball...play to the teams athleticism, defensively trying to keep teams off the baseline etc. there are other players on the team who are stuck playing one on one or trying to feed off of Joe/Jamal misses/passes. Something has to give. There is a battle for the team going on right now for style of play. I see Joe as on the fence but not committed, Jamal not participating, Bibby unable to play to the level he wants. Collins is doing great work on the defensive end one on one but not fitting in otherwise. This is what I believe is holding Teague and JC2 back. they're playing like they are still in college defensively and offensively they are not running the offense but instead are playing a lot of one on one.

The difference between Hinrich and Bibby is 4 inches and anticipation. Defensively, that would stop 5 buckets a game and create 3. Hinrich could make as much as a 15 point difference on some nights without scoring much of a lick. Basketball is a game of runs and Bibby's height/footspeed lead to momentum shifts that turn 2 points into 10 points in a blink. Hinrich does not have that issue. If you want to get crazy? http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5860749 Picks would have to be involved.

That is the exact wrong thing to do given our cap situation. We are significantly over the cap. Meaning that even if all 15 million of their salaries came off the books, we could only use a couple million to resign players. But if we traded that salary away for a long term contract, that doesn't count the same against the cap. Trading away Craw this year, Bibs anytime between now and next year's deadline is the best answer for competivity.

I can't respond to everyone who posted but I'm still trying to understand this. Knicks Outgoing Gallinari, Felton, Chandler, Curry, Randolph Mozgov, 3 draft picks Knicks Incoming Anthony, Billups, Williams, Balkman Denver Outgoing Anthony, Billups, Williams, Balkman Denver Incoming Gallinari, Felton, Chandler, Brewer, Mozgov, 3 draft picks Minnesota outgoing Brewer Minnesota incoming Randolph, Curry My head is spinning. Knicks get better at small forward. Knicks get worse at Center, 6th man, worse cap situation. A wash at the point due to age. Worse at defense (I guess). Carmelo is great but I'm not sure this addressed their team needs. Denver gets better at depth? I honestly don't know how this helped them except the Carmelo saga is over and they now have the pieces/picks to make a few more trades. Minnesota got??????? 13 million in salary and an overpaid big if Curry is ever healthy, not overeating and not harassing his chauffer??? I guess this is why I'm not an NBA GM!!!

Jamal's contract is expiring. He has more value based on the team.

Let's see if I can apply some clarity to this thread. Take the top 3 players off of most any team in the NBA. Insert JJ, Josh, Al. Is that team a + .500 win team? Let's try for a moment. Think hard. Use Miami as an example. Take away Lebron, Wade, Bosh. Could a team with Chalmers at the point and Big Z at the center win 41 with JJ, Josh and Al? I believe it could and would. So let's not perceive anyone on the team untouchable at this point except for those 3. for the sake of argument anyway. Trade assets in order of Salary/attractiveness (from my perspective). Jamal - 10 million/expiring. Mo Evans - 2.5 million/expiring Josh Powell - 992,680/expiring Marvin Williams - 6.7 million / 4 years remaining (starter on 50% of the teams in the league at the 3 or 4). Jeff Teague - 1.5 million / 3 years remaining (backup on 50% of teams in the league...cheap) Zaza Pachulia - 4.2 million (there are teams out there worse off than us at center, Zaza would be a cheap starter). Rest are all filler, little value in the league. I believe the Hawks have their 1st round draft picks for 2011,12,13 all available. I believe the Hawks have all 3 second rounders, Houstons 2nd rounder in 2011(David Anderson trade) and Phoenix's in 2012 (childress trade) So what does that = you ask? there is 27 million in contract to trade. About 16 million of which is expiring. there are at most 2 first and 5 second round picks to trade. There is also a trade exception to use in the event you want to take back a post season rental (for ex: Melo).

I took a very long time considering this instead of dismissing it just out of hand. I'd prefer fall down in an a poorly cleaned pig pen then take a chance on Thabeet for 2 years. However, I can't stand Maurice Evans even more and if it could get Mo out of town and ensure the Hawks can't resign him next year, I could see it. Here is a deal under which it would work. Realize that with an almost 5 million dollar salary, Thabeet is no small risk when you consider our salary cap issues. http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5849470 This trade is conditional to getting a big man coach like Oakley, Hakeem the dream, Kevin Willis or the like to spend this summer beating the tar out of Thabeet.

I'm comparing 5 years of watching him miss game winners, seeing others tip in his missed shots (I can think of Josh doing this twice last year alone), and a yearly repeat performance of him disappearing in the playoffs.

To be even more fair...Horford since Jan 1. 14.67 PPG 10.0 RPG 4.48 APG 1.33 BPG .67 SPG 55.3% FG% 1.29 T/O Al's numbers against those same teams have trailed a bit except for Rebounds and Assists. and Cap....I know what you're saying about having him at the 4 but the advantages of having him at the 3 and having a true center in the game far outweigh his ability to cover wings off the dribble. JJ is a choke artist!!! Only because I didn't want the "JJ trying to make the all star game and shooting 20 times a game" stretch in Dec/Jan not ruin the sample. We've seen JJ enough to know he'll get his stats during the year by volume shooting and then evaporate in April.

We should probably also keep in mind JJ has been putting up Marvin like numbers since he made the all-star team against the same competition. Fair is fair!!! Joe "the 120 million dollar man" Johnson's last 5 games against that same competition. 13.8 ppg 3.6 RPG 4.8 APG 28.6 3PT% 41.2 FG% 2 total steals and no blocks. 2.8 T/O per game

FYI, He's been bringing it for a while which is why the Josh bashing has been so funny. 2011 stats through 19 games 18.5 PPG 9.5 RPG 3 APG 1.21 SPG 1.21 BPG 47.7 FG% 32% 3PT% 2.52 TPG (turnovers) Last 10 games 19.9 PPG 9.2 RPG 3.1 APG 1.3 SPG 1.4 BPG 53.6 FG% 30% 3PT% 2.7 TPG (turnovers) Another FYI - Most of the last 10 games have been playing significant time at the Small Forward.

I knew there would be one person. Okay...what pray tell did Josh do this game to lose it for us. Go ahead and enlighten me. What was wrong with his 11 of 17, 2 of 4 from 3, 28 point game tonight?

Again, why is it Smith getting benched after the blowout. Josh and Marvin were the only ones giving considerable effort. Mo Evans, Bibby, Zaza....all not functioning well right now. Joe Johnson took 8 shots, scored 6 points in 22 minutes and forced 5 turnovers in that game. Why in the hell is that game on Josh?

FYI...Marvin and filler (to make up his trade bonus) works for Varejeo. http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5843923 There are better options than the one presented. Give the Cavs a future first and Marvin, serviceable big in Etan Thomas to finish their season and you could probably get Varejeo. Teague/Bibby JJ/Crawford Smith/Wilkens Horford/Pachulia Varejeo/Collins would be very formidable in May.

Darko is going for 2.3 blocks a game in 24 minutes. Is Seven feet and mobile enough to rotate across the lane on a penetrating guard. This frees up Josh to not have to constantly play in out for help defense on the center. Better inside and outside.

Again, untrue. Oak Hill is a religious academy/prep school. Class sizes are 8-10 students at a time. Parents that send their kids to Oak Hill expect their children to go to college. Kids who fall to a "C" average are put on probation and given assistance. If he were getting "grades help", they would give him just enough to pass, not enough to be tops on the roster. Fact: Josh was recruited by UGA, GT and numerous other schools. GT was one of the schools still in the running when Josh chose Indiana. You don't consider Tech if you can't make grades. I've been looking for his SAT/ACT scores online and haven't been able to find them (anyone that can let me know).

I would prefer an easier to obtain Darko Milicic which is a 3rd player that could go 3/4/5 giving greater motion flexibility. Neither of those players is motion offense friendly.

You might want to check my other post on this subject. Josh had the highest GPA on the Basketball team his senior season at Oak Hill Academy. Players on that team his senior year were Rajon Rondo, Dayshawn Wright, Brian Johnson, Brandon Jennings, Nolan Jennings, Alex Legion, Julian Vaughn and Howard Thompkins.

I don't even have to look to know you are right.

Yea, these were just the primaries. You could easily mold it to make it palatable to Minnesota.

http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5842258 Plus add next year's first. This trade allows Minnesota to dump salary for next year. fixes our deficiencies at Center and PG. Lineup looks like this: Telfair / Teague Johnson/Crawford Smith/Wilkens Horford/Williams/Pachulia Milicic/Twin/Pachulia Reasons.... Telfair can get to the paint and is a stop ball pg. He won't be as pressured to score as early in his career. He's currently averaging 7.8ppg/3.1apg and shooting 39.7% from 3 in under 20 minutes a game. Give him 32 minutes (teague 16) and that playes out to 13 ppg, 5.7 apg and much better defense. Telfair runs the pick and roll and fast break extremely well. He is fast. Biggest strength is court vision. Milicic. 7.0, 275 2.3 bpg center in only 24 minutes. averaging 9.3 PPG 5.4 RPG in the same 24 minutes. 32 minutes numbers would be 12 ppg/7.2 RPG/3.0 BPG. He doesn't have to be superman, he just has to not be a strong defensive presence who could score if asked and allow Al to move to the 4, Josh to the 3. It's the Collins lineup except Milicic is better than Collins. Starting lineup is 6.0, 6.7, 6.9, 6.10, 7.0.

Again, untrue. Going into the draft that year, Josh was projected to go as high as 5th overall and fell due to questions about his work ethic to the Hawks at 17. Originally, the Hawks were going to take him 6th but after reports surfaced about his work ethic he dropped in the mocks to as low as 20. Never did he fall out of the mock draft's top 20 and with guaranteed big money on the table, went pro instead of going to Indiana. See: http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/Draft/2004mock.htm For an example. This one had him going 12 to Seattle. Most Mocks that year had the Hawks taking Luol Deng 6th. The 2004 draft was extremely strong and any variance from perfect weighed heavily that year. For a refresher, take a look at the players that went in 2004. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_NBA_Draft Duhon and Varejeo were 2nd rounders. Much of that first round are solid NBA'ers today. Which is rare.