thecampster

Congratulations, Hawks! Sounds like you guys came out and were really playing ball. Great game!

What happened during the comeback? Who was playing for the Hawks when the Nets made their run?

Not much output for Teague. Hollinger says he is playing scared again (thanks to Drew).

I went to the game tonight (first this season). For being only about half full, it was a active crowd.

JJ went out in the third quarter and it threw off the rotation quite a bit. Crawford got a lot of time (almost 39 minutes) and played scattered for a while.

After JJ went out, and for about 6 minutes, Al, Josh, Kirk were all on the bench for the same time. On the floor for most of the comeback in one combination or another was Zaza, Teague, Craw, Wilkens, Marvin. most of the time our starters were out, some combination of this group was on the floor. The +/- is skewed a bit because it took a few possessions for the momentum to get stopped once we reinserted those 3.

Lol.

Joe making this kind of statement just makes me sad. Joe. You should get the ball in crunch time. You are our max player, our go-to guy. The face of the Hawks. Demand the ball. and take control of YOUR team, you damn mute.

Joe got his shot blocked in the last 5 minutes because he drove like a pansy

I'll stop you right there because you are aweigh again on your misdirection ship. Nobody asks Smoove to handle the ball which would bring us to yet another legitimate gripe people have, him fancying himself a ball handler when he should be, as you say, a PF. Now you are also focusing on the turnovers claiming that I'm the one bent out of shape about that but why is there really no attention to his once vaunted and impactful passing disappearing? My emphasis is not on his turnovers even though you were the first to use them in his favor it's on his assisting dropping far more dramatically than his turnovers. May not be of any consequence to you based on your distractions but a guy that chooses to handle the ball frequently on his OWN who at least had the benefit of being able to make passes is now at a 50/50 chance that he might make a play for his teammates to score or give a lucky fan in the third row a concussion.

Lemme just play Smoove hater for a second and misdirect criticism *ahem*" Smoove's continuing to take more shots, especially 3s that he is no longer hitting, to get himself more points while passing less to his teammates is what has affected their drop in FGAs and therefore points. This selfish behavior is more to blame for the team losing than anything else anyone else is doing."

Absurd? sure and at best only partially the reason but don't matter because I achieved what I wanted in the first place, I got you looking left while Al and Joe are operating on the right.

Now let me play devil's advocate. If Joe hits one more shot a game on a pass from Josh, Josh's assist numbers aren't down. That is most definately a relative stat to the play of others on the team.

I understand you getting mad at blind vitriol but also understand that I and others get just as mad when we are labeled "haters" for bringing up legitimate gripes. Again, you picked your span of games to back up your position but then you chose to omit the exact stats that are the basis of many people's dissatisfaction with Smoove. I hope you can understand why that was a bit of a head scratcher to me.

Again, I did not pick those games to back up my position. I picked those games because that's when the real losing began and it was easy to gather based on Yahoo's split stats.

You are trying to compare the t/o to Assist ratio of a power foward to a guard. Any player asked to handle the ball as much as he is has elevated turnovers. You're getting upset about 2.3 t/os a game. That's an average of 2.5 points a game. or if you go 1 to 1 it's 4.6 points a game. You can't in all honesty be that upset about those stats enough to overlook the drop in Joe and Al's performance. Joe being down 9 points a game over his high point with the hawks. Al and Joe both do not get to the line near enough. Half of Joe's very mediocre FT numbers are gimme's at the end of the game. 2-4 points of Joe's average are those same gimme's.

Now in my opinion, the drop in Al's numbers are most probably him still being affected by the super hard foul and coming back too soon. Other than a few games before the all star announcements, Joe has been less than stellar all year. My only agenda is in not losing the most impactful player on our team to the mob mentality of fans.

All I know is post All Star break which is the unofficial midway point of the season and when the competition got harder for this team and the losing really started the stats for all three of them dropped. This is fact, if you want to include the entire month of February where Smoove was abusing far inferior teams for nearly 30 points in 45% of the games yet not topping 16 points in the rest of the games against superior opponents then you might as well just go back barely a month and include Joe's monster January as well. Don't include me with Jack, it's clear he has an agenda just as much as Diesel, Crank, Benhill or MVP do. I'm part of the contigent that are legitimately saying that Smoove's jumpshooting, wild passes and overall demeanor affect the team and you come flying in trying to distract from those valid points by throwing out his points per game as if it just kills that argument. I found it beyond funny that over that span of games you decided upon that Josh is shooting the worst 3point % amongst everyone yet his attempts aren't down and his assists are not only down but he is dishing out 2.7 assists to 2.3 turnovers. Do you think the "haters" still have no merit to their arguments? Can't be because they'd be no reason for you to be trying to pull a Kansas City Shuffle then.

Unless you are running an agenda yourself.....

My agenda is simple. I value Josh's game and get annoyed with the excessive hate.

Again the numbers aren't random. They are pulled from Split stats on Yahoo for each player.

Perhaps it's because you are being picky and choosy with your stat tellin' all while making lil to no mention of Josh damn near having a 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and shooting 22% on threes on the same number of attempts over that arbitrary span of months you decided upon.......You know, the two most common things in addition to the pouting that people are actually complaining about with him. You are focusing on things like his scoring average which was obviously boosted during his best month of the season in February where he hung an average of 28 points on the Wizards, Bobcats, Suns, Warriors and Pistons. You are of course glassing over things like FGA's being lil to much higher than everyone else while his are assists actually much lower while his turnovers..erm, naw, they haven't dropped nearly as dramatically as the assists if at all like you claimed. Call out the haters all you want but don't pretend as if you are not purposefully serving your own agenda here by only calling attention to areas where Smoove may look favorable. You are trying to paint a picture as if Smoove has put up some Herculean performance over the past two months while Horf and Joe have disappeared into the ether all while offering practically zero context with the rest of their seasons.

You know what Craw...maybe I jumped the gun on you there. Maybe I'm jumping the gun on Jack. I'll be fair.

Can you guys justify the stats, purely the stats drop off of Al/Joe in the last 24 games...when the team has gone 10-14. That's what these stats are. They are the last 24 games as a team. with a 4 game under .500 record. Look at Joe, Josh, Al. In those 24 games, can you justify Joe's performance. Al's drop off (might be the back from the fall...don't know...no one has said). By the way..3 of those wins came at the front...they are 7-14 in the last 21.

Perhaps it's because you are being picky and choosy with your stat tellin' all while making lil to no mention of Josh damn near having a 1 to 1 assist to turnover ratio and shooting 22% on threes on the same number of attempts over that arbitrary span of months you decided upon.......You know, the two most common things in addition to the pouting that people are actually complaining about with him. You are focusing on things like his scoring average which was obviously boosted during his best month of the season in February where he hung an average of 28 points on the Wizards, Bobcats, Suns, Warriors and Pistons. You are of course glassing over things like FGA's being lil to much higher than everyone else while his are assists actually much lower while his turnovers..erm, naw, they haven't dropped nearly as dramatically as the assists if at all like you claimed. Call out the haters all you want but don't pretend as if you are not purposefully serving your own agenda here by only calling attention to areas where Smoove may look favorable. You are trying to paint a picture as if Smoove has put up some Herculean performance over the past two months while Horf and Joe have disappeared into the ether all while offering practically zero context with the rest of their seasons.

Arbitrary stats? Arbitrary range of games?

Last 2 months is not arbitrary. points, rebounds assists, steals, blocks, turnovers are not arbitrary. These are the main stats in basketball. they are the baseline of all things.

"Poise"..are you F*&^%-in insane? This isn't girls balance beam for Chr874st sakes...this is the NBA. I watch every game and we don't need Smoove to be a "poised" SF who can tip toe and stick a landing..you people who want a SF who can do it all - every time - get on my nerves. Smoove does it much more often than not (grinding my teeth). :comando:

You can't win this argument man. I just supplied 2 months of stats that show Joe and Al performing worse than the first half of the season and Josh performing better. The stats also show Josh performing as well or better than both. Yet people ignore the obvious evidence and follow the mob mentality. 2 months of stats don't lie. The haters will continue to hate and they are the ones that will scream the loudest.

He's been doing that all year long. Woodson got on him for complaining too much to the refs, but Drew lets him argue as long as he wants.

I love how you turned 43% shooting in a quarter into costing us a game from a player who shot 62% for the game scored 33 and grabbed 12 boards....and completely ignore your boy Horford scoring 8 points on 12 shots and can't see that as being why we lost the game.

Or how you are ignoring Horford's averages over the last 2 months of 14.3 points and 8.9 rebounds and only drawing 2.3 free throws a game.

Or how you are ignoring JJ's 16.2 ppg and 2.4 t/o a game and only 2 Free throw attempts a game in February and March

and are continuing to ignore that Josh has led the team in scoring at 17.7 a game on 49.4% shooting the last 2 months while averaging 8.4 rebounds, 2.9 assists and lowering his turnovers over that time.

People on this board need to to start paying attention to the stats and stop being blinded by their hate. Josh has been the statistically best player on this team for months now.

Here are the stats the last 22 games (since the losing began)

.....................Josh..........Al..........Joe

Points.........17.7.........14.3.......16.2

Reb..............8.4............8.9..........3.9

*ss..............2.9.............3.8..........4.1

STL..............1.3........... .8............. .7

Bks.............1.4............ .8.............. .1

T/O............. 2.3 .......... 1.5 .........2.4

The problem is your 126 million dollar man and Al's dip since the all star game. Jamal has been just as big a problem.

Ok this is what I don't understand, when Horford had ONE NIGHT like this (30 pts) "he is the savior of the team and everyone should follow his lead", "he is a warrior", "he is a competitor", "he is the only one who cares" "he knows how to win" and all this other crap, but when Josh does it, it's considered a fluke. WTF????? Do you guys here not see how bias you are??

No they don't but in all fairness, Niremetal is one of the more fair in general. (and definately not kissing up as he and I butt heads in other areas)

In my opinion, Josh has been the best player on the team for 2 years now. Joe to me is a volume shooter that only gets to the line in the last 2 minutes of wins.

To me, Al is dependable, tough and a very, very good player. A very close second. But Josh affects every part of the game. The only argument in my opinion against Josh is his high number of unforced turnovers. But his overall play more than makes up for that.

We complain a lot about Josh and to some extent Al handling the ball a great deal far from the basket but that is the role they've been cast in because Joe is not the ball handler his reputation foretold.

Well, free throw attempts is a pretty useless stat. And talking about it in terms of "per game" is also a waste of time.

What you want is free throws made per minute. It also matters what role they play.

Per 36:

Jamal - 4.3 vs. Joe - 3.3

Zaza - 3.7 vs. Horford - 2.2 vs. Collins - 1.6

Smith - 3.1 vs. Powell - 2.0

Marvin - 2.9 vs. Wilkens - 2.4 vs. Evans - 1.0

Teague - 2.5 vs. Bibby - 0.7

So, if you want more FT/game, you need to give more minutes to Zaza (over Collins), Teague (over Bibby), Wilkins (over Evans), and Jamal (over Joe), in that order.

Those stats are skewed. Jamal and Joe shoot the free throws at the end of games when we have leads and shoot all the Tech foul shots.

Those are not foul shots earned but instead, given.

My biggest one recently. I moved back to Georgia in 2007 and when I came I was fortunate enough to have excess money. So not sure what to do with it I just put it down on my house thinking "property is always a solid investment". Also, I bought on the west side of town excited about how much house I could get for the money.

I got a great deal when I bought it...it appraised for 232k, bought it for 215k. It is now worth about $160k. I work north side now. 50 mile drive to work and can't sell the house without losing the money I put down. So I now do a 100 mile round trip commute 5 days a week (2200 miles a month). This great deal in housing costs me $300 a month in gas now.

I was so wrong.

On a different note, anyone living within 15 minutes of Alpharetta want to trade houses????? 5 bed, 3 bath, mountain views :) :) :)

and on a more basketball related note. I thought the Priest Lauderdale pick was solid.

There's a lot of truth in this. Last night while watching the game with my boys, I kept commenting during the game that the problem with Teague isn't ability, it's confidence. That he was fairly ruined last year by our old coach and at times has played tentative. Specifically I said, "You can't drive the lane hoping not to make a mistake." Especially late in the game, there was an extra step on his drives to the basket as he wasn't afraid to miss.

But to be fair, the 16 million a year Joe eats in salary could be being used on a player that fits better with them.

that's a consideration .

OK, here we are in March and there are some things that we as Hawks fans must face up to:

-The Larry Drew hire was a big mistake. The players are too "comfortable" with him and see no reason to play hard every night. His gametime coaching was an improvement over Woodson, but if the players won't bring defensive energy and effort, X's and O's wont help you.

Unfair really. The Hawks were mostly injury free last year and have lost over 40 player games to injury already this year. Yet they are just behind last year's pace.

-Josh Smith will never change and will never realize his true potential, because he fancies himself a jump shooter and a playmaker

Again not totally fair. He is a much improved jump shooter and a proven passer. Try to remember the guy didn't have 4-5 years of college grooming. He's still grooming his game. What you see with Josh is not the finished product. Same goes for Al, Marvin, Teague.

-The Hawks are more unpredicatble than the weather in Atlanta in March. There is no way we will sustain high energy and effort over a few 7 game series'.

This I definately agree with.

- We are not good enough to beat most +.500 teams

We haven't been healthy/focused enough....but we can and will.

-We are no better than last year

We're better but not luckier. We will be a tougher out this year but will still most probably be done in the second round.

-We are a bad defensive team. We got better with Hinrich, but we need a quality Center.

We are a good defensive team but we have holes, that hole is Center.

-We are primarily a jump shooting team. When shots aren't falling...we will lose

and it sucks. we should be playing much more inside out, pick and roll. Every fan sees it, I have no idea why both of our coaches haven't forced it.

-We have a bunch of talented guys with large contracts that don't have any incentive to play hard every night

I tried to argue with this and couldn't

-Joe Johnson has lost his range. He should play more on the inside and take less long jumpers and 3's.

Joe Johnson is a fine player that should be on a different team...He should be moved for whatever good big and average guard we could get.

-Teague shows promise but still isn't ready

-Zaza has peaked.

-Marvin has peaked

Marvin is poorly utilizied and under utilized

If anyone wishes to dispute any of these, I would love to hear it. We are a decent team, but in our current state cannot

compete with +.500 teams. We don't need to "blow it up" but we do need these things:

1) A seasoned and well respected coach that will get these guys to perform every night and play to their strengths

Profusely disagree. We need to give LD our support.

2) A quality center that will stop the merry go round to the hoop and the lack of toughness under the basket

Biggest need on the team IMHO.

3) A leader on the court that will hold everyone accountable

That should be Hinrich, he just needs to be empowered to do so.

4) less jump shooters and more guys who bang in the paint

Redundant...see point #2

5) much, much better defense

Redundant...see point #2

Old thread...very pertinent in light of there now is "Crying in Basketball".

What in the hell is going on? i see threads about" trade Joe" or " horfords a rich mans nene" or " i've lost hope" . REALLY? Joe is a 5 time all star, Horford is a 2 time all star. Before these two players we went no where. With them we are a playoff team every season. Look i understand that we are an up and down team, but what team isnt.? You win some you lose some thats just how it is. Look at the heat, they have the big 3 and yet they have a loseing record aginst .500 plus teams. The new york knicks can't seem to beat the CAVS and so on and so on. The point is we have a new coach with a new offense and defense, so i knew we wasn't going to win more or even match our last season win total. And by the way LD is a great coach. Do we need 1 or 2 more players to get to the next level? yea, we do. Venting your frustrations is one thing, but some of the threads i've seen are just flat out ridiculous. :negative: HAWKZ 4 LIFE!!!!!

For the record, I stated repeatedly before the season started the Heat would not be world beaters due to lack of point guard and Center play. This isn't shocking to me. They are not well constructed. Not signing Bosh and instead obtaining an equivalent 1 or 5 would have been a better constructed team.

Similarly, the Hawks are also poorly constructed in that they are not big enough (both height and weight where it matters) and evenly balanced offensively.

That I even have to make this case is just a sad commentary on the state of Hawksquawk. If you have been watching the games you would know that the hawks are 37 and 26.

Joe Johnson has played in 22 of those 26 losses.

in those 22 losses his stats are:

17PPG

154 of 362 (42.5%) 7 of 16.5 average

20 of 95 from 3PT for (21%)

What is my point? 22 losses, on average Joe gets 17 points on 16.5 attempts (basically 1 point a shot), he's attrocious from 3.

these numbers are even skewed a little by a 23,23 and 34 point games in losses at the beginning of the season. After that point he's averaged less than 16 points a game in our losses. This means that when the Hawks need him, he's just average. That's not what a max player is. He's supposed to pick his team up, not just be average.

These numbers are extremely telling. compare it to Marvin's body of work during the year. Marvin is only taking 8.4 shots a game but is averaging 10.5 points a game. This means that Marvin is getting 1.25 points per attempt and we kill him nightly. Joe is getting 1.03 points per attempt in our losses. Chew on that....let it sit on your pallet and see if it doesn't make you want to vommit. Average Marvin offensive efficiency is 22% better than Joe's efficiency in our losses.

As a further comparison...Josh is 16.7 PPG on 13.6 attempts a game for the year (1.23 points per attempt). Al is 16.0 ppg on 12.3 attempts a game this year (1.30 points per attempt). Since joining the team, Kirk Hinrich is 11PPG on 8 attempts a game (1.375 points per attempt).

Now really really really chew on it...Joe is on average .21 to .37 points per attempt worse than each of these players averages when you look at Joe's performance in losses....16.5 attempts.... .3 points per attempt worse = 5 points a game. Now go through our losses and see how many games were we within 5 points in the last 3 minutes. That is why it's Joe johnson's fault.

14 of our losses are by 10 points or less. Joe Johnson is currently giving you no more than Stephen Jackson or last year's John Salmons but at 2 to 3 times the price.

At first it was just a "lateral move". Now it's a lateral move "if it's about getting to the ECF." Next, it'll be a lateral move if it's about making it to the Finals. And then, it'll be a lateral move if it's about winning the Championship. 2 peat, 3 peat. And so on, and so on, and so on, and so on................................. lol! Give it up dude. This team is playing DEFENSE. What good is an occasional 3 ptr from Bibs, if your're giving it right back on the other end?

And a +1 for you sir...sorry I can't make it a +100. That's the point. Offense is for show, Defense is for Dough.

I asked this question the other day.....Does the NBA allow players to restructure their contracts? I know it's highly unlikely it would happen, but I remember John Smoltz took less money on a restructured contract to give the Braves a little more wiggle room financially to improve the team. If the Hawks are able to move some pieces like Marvin and Zaza and don't re-sign Jamal or use him in a S&T for deals that expire after next season, they could possibly have enough room to sign Dwight IF Joe, Smoove, and/or Al took a little less money annually. Someone did the numbers that the Hawks would be somewhere around $14 million under the cap in the scenario proposed above (based on current cap situation). Naturally, you'd expect Dwight to sign for a little more than that, but If each player took $1 million less annually, that would still give you the freedom to give Dwight a comparable deal without losing anyone. I don't know the exact figures but something like

Joe $14 million

Smoove $10 million

Horf $10 million

Howard $14 million

Those numbers would put you at $48 million (current cap I believe)

Just a thought. Anyone know the rules on players restructuring their contracts?

Next year, those numbers are wrong by about 8 million. I have a thread I made on this around Sunday ish.

There is no doubt that the Hawks are a changed team. The only change made was Hinrich for Bibby. It's not hard to figure. Hinrich isn't Deron or CP3, but he's showing what the Hawks can do with a quality starting PG (especially one that iniatiates the D). Wait till guys are trying to get by a hustling Hinrich and he leads them right into a waiting Smoove. BAM! Horford has the boards.

Got to say, one medium move (Hinrich) and I'm a happy Hawks fan.

Actually, not completely true. Just as important in my opinion is the subtraction of Mo Evans. I can't understand why Mo got so much burn. His team concept defense was almost as bad as Bibby's man defense. Mo drove players on this team nuts by being in the wrong spot on both ends of the floor. Being a long term Hawk, he had to be barked into the right spot way too often and was just as bad as Bibby fighting through screens. Clearing space for Wilkens to get time on the floor was nearly as important. If Damien can rediscover his just average offensive skills, this move does set us up for a run. New York only beat us on Guard and Bench Guard play their one win, Miami only gives us trouble when playing off screens (that is no longer a problem now).

Rondo is no longer a world beater with Kirk slowing him down. The only real match up issues left are Dwight Howard and our own injury situation.

When in Chat, I like to read more than post. you guys can be hilarious at times.

This was one of the best all around performances I've ever seen from a Hawks player. And someone actually started a thread about why some consider Al untouchable. Unless we are getting an MVP candidate out of the trade Al ain't going anywhere. He is the second best center in the NBA after Dwight "Why the hell is no one considering him an MVP front runner" Howard. In the games Hinrich has played we have held the opposition to around 80 points a game... oh and we have two wins against quality opponents (without Josh Smith for the majority of those two games). So far the trade is looking good... We needed defense in the perimeter and we've got it.

Actually Josh went out in the loss, he's was in for the 2 wins.

Come on...someone....anyone. Hinrich just stuck it in the Bulls eye.

OMG...i can't believe you guys are even discussing this. in order for Mike to score, Wade/James/Bosh has to pass him the ball. I'll take Mike shooting on a kick out over James getting and 1's all day long.

Hawks chances will be determined by whether or not they can beat the Orlando Magic in the 1st round or if we can somehow sweep the Bulls and go on a tear to make a run at the 3rd seed.

If we lose to the Heat it will be because of Wade, Bosh and LeBron, not Mike Bibby. He's not the difference now and certainly not the difference years from now.

Honestly the more things are shaping up the more I like our chances 2-3 years from now. Boston will be past their prime, and I think Orlando took a step back with those trades they made.

Hawks will have as good as hot as any team in the East to make the Finals especially if Teague can just develop into an average PG offensively or above average one defensively

Hawks chances will be determined primarily by HEALTH. Our defense is light years better now. But take away 2 pieces (see last night) and that solid D quickly evaporates.