thecampster

I still can't see a real positive. This is a lateral move with the potential to be downhill or backwards.

This year's PER in similar minutes.

Hinrigh 13.72

Bibby 11.52

Offensively, Hinrich was a 2.2 better PER player. Now consider he was playing out of position and shooting a lower 3 PT %.

Combine that with the defensive improvement and it's not unreasonable to make the deal. This is not a lateral move. This is a vast improvement at the SG position in defense and according to the PER...a 15-20% improvement in the player on offense.

Something you may not be considering. Bibby was only going to get older and slower next year and was stuck under contract with the team for one more year.

Hinrich's deal gets smaller next year, not bigger.

That's not a travel at all.

actually it is...he picks it up before the first step...then the pro hop isn't proper..counts as 2 because he brings the feet up and down at different times.

Once again, for those that don't know Kirk Hinrich.

In December with John Wall inactive and Gilbert Arenas being traded, Kirk was returned to him natural position of Point guard. Here are his stats for the next 4 games.

MPG - 39.25

PPG - 16.25

APG - 9.75

RPG - 4.75

SPG - 2.00

T/O - 3.5

FG% - 44.4

3PT% - 1 of 8 for 12.5%

FT's - 16 of 18 for 89% (4.5 FT/Game)

That's Hinrich when he gets to play the point. Will he match that for us? Probably not since we have 3 legit scorers on the floor at one time. But you can not afford to play off the PG anymore and you can't afford to just run at our PG anymore when you are on O. 3 of those 4 games were against CHI/MIA/SAS.

Not a multi-team deal, Boston is also trying to get Hinrich. This is from Ken Berger's Twitter ...

Does it not ring a bell with anyone that both the Lakers and Celtics were trying to get this guy? The two best teams in NBA history do not make that many trade deadline mistakes.

Don't respond till you've had time to think this through.

The Carmelo trade created an interesting situation in Minnesota. In New York, Eddy Curry was left on the IR (ala speedy claxton) to collect the insurance. Per Minny's GM, Curry will either be traded or released.

If Curry is released and assuming he's healthy, would you take him for the vet minimum for the year?

3 years ago before the injuries he was a 19 point, 7 rebound center. he's 290 lbs and is a big body that can eat up space in the middle moving Al and Josh down without giving up anyone.

We suck. We will never be contenders for anything but biggest pretender until Josh Smith is traded. I am watching game and they don't have any heart. They will have to win because of better talent, and they don't have that either :thumbsdownsmileyanim:

Were you really watching the game tonight? 10 of 18 from the field....what did he do to lose us this game except lead the team in scoring???

My favorite highlight of Hinrich's career...

Haha, just kidding Kirk. Welcome to Atlanta.

you can't seriously be faulting him for that ? :white flag:

Besides...Crawford traveled on the play :)

Horrible trade and Hubie is not a coach for a reason

Hubie is one of the proven better NBA coaches of all time. You are not an NBA talent evaluator for a reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubie_Brown

Brown is a two-time NBA Coach of the Year, the honors being separated by 26 years. Brown is in the Basketball Hall of Fame.

Brown then rejoined the NBA as head coach of the Atlanta Hawks, going 31-51 in his first season with the Hawks. But by the 1977-78 season, the Hawks had rebounded into a .500 team, finishing 41-41 and earning Coach of the Year honors for Brown. Continued to coach the Hawks, leading them to a Central Division Title in the 1979-80 season,

However, by the 2004-05 season, there were again concerns about Brown's health and age. Brown was given medical clearance to start the season, but was forced to delegate much work to his assistant coaches, including his son, Brendan Brown. This led to an incident between Brendan Brown and Jason Williams when Williams snapped at Brown during the fourth quarter of a game early on in the season. Williams eventually apologized, but the Grizzlies were beginning to struggle during the season, starting 5-7.

Brown then unexpectedly resigned from the Grizzlies on Thanksgiving Day, November 25, 2004. In a statement, he cited "unexpected health-related issues...

And there is your reason he isn't an NBA coach. His only bad season as a coach was with the Knicks when Bernard King was lost for the season with a knee injury. this man knows what it takes to win.

It's frustrating when Al only gets 10 shots a night. When will they realize he has the best percent. on the team? Shouldn't he be taking the most shots?

Al's 6-14 tonight so far Jack.

First off I would like to thank Mike Bibby and Mo Evans for helping our team over the years and getting to the second round of the playoffs but it was time for a change. Now with the trade of getting Kirk Hinrich. This is a great trade but let's compare for those who dont know Hinrich.

Hinrich abilities:

-he plays defense very well (if I had to pick he's a top 5 pg defender in the league)

-can get his team involved (I can damn near gurrantee Hinrich will get back to avg. 6 to10 assist with this core of guys)

-he is a ok penetrator nothing special but he can and will try to penetrate before seattling for a jumpshot

-a pure shooter and can knock the 3 ball down no prob

-knows how to control the ball making good decisions most of the time (surely will be the main ball handler with this hawks unit no doubt)

Bibby abilities:

-a pure shooter as well able to knock down the 3 ball

-horrible defender

-rarely penetrates in his career today

-not one to setup his team

With all that said Hinrich may not be the future but I will say he can be here for another 3 to 4 years he's 29 going on 30. He's no where near washed up yet. The biggest two things that make him better than Bibby is that he will try to penetrate or he will just make good passes in general. 2nd he is like gary patton on defense compared to Bibby! Yes he is that much better on defense than Bibby.

Now to be BOLD

Just to clarify to people before they read this statement I know Steve Nash is a better pg than Hinrich by default. But here's what I have to say when t comes to offense Nash has damn near any PG beat but when it comes to defense Hinrich makes Nash look like "I wish I could". The point is that the Hawks have been struggling with the pg position penetrating and perimeter defense. Hnrich is a OK penetrator and great defender! Hawks kill two birds with one stone with this deal and they add a BIG who finish stronger than any BIG we have besides Horford or Smith. Yeah Hinrich is old we wouldnt be saying that if we had a chance at getting Nash! cause nash is old too people

honestly, anyone who is dissing this trade has never seen Hinrich play. He is an all-around player and not a one trick pony. We didn't need an offensive star...we score plenty...we needed someone to stop the other team's point.

Giving up Mo Evans = an improvement (give me Damien off the bench any day). I'm going to assume Mo was getting so much burn as an attempt to up his value.

Evans = 6'6 - Armstrong 6'11

Bibby = 5'11" - Hinrich 6'3

We just got taller.

Hinrich - Better penetrator, better defender, better free throw shoot, better at drawing fouls.

Bibby - Better 3 point shooter.

On the floor differences - Joe has to handle the ball less. We don't need to drop a second person back to lay screens for Bibby bringing up the ball. Hinrich will get out and lead the break. Hinrich will stay in front of his man half the time and be a harder person to shoot over all the time meaning less need for our bigs to leave their man to help defend. Hinrich will be the one chasing the better guard of the other team, thereby giving JJ better legs throughout the game.

Anyone who doesn't see this as an extreme improvement isn't looking.

Now for the other part of the trade....the cost.

Bibby - 5-6 million a year...1 year left

Mo Evans - 2.5 million a year .... expiring

J Crawford = 1-3 million a year 4 years remaining.

Hinrich - 9 million (8 million next year as the contract was front loaded...he would be only 1.7 million more next year than Bibby) - 1 year remaining.

Armstrong - 1 million a year....expiring.

The net effect on the cap next year is 0....Armstrong's expiring means we are only losing 1.5 million of Mo's expiring. That just happens to be J Crawford's salary. So when you consider Hinrich's salary goes down next year, the net trade is:

Bibby, J Crawford (who isn't playing), a first next year (probably 22-25) for Hinrich (which is a bigger expiring in 2012) and a bench slot for Pape Sy and playing time for Wilkens.

Given our lineup is set at 1-4 now the next year, the pick had very little chance of being an impact player for 2 years (Hinrich will resign cheaper when his deal is done). Our only need is now at Center and the 22nd pick in the draft is not going to net you a starting center either in trade or application.

This trade is a win both financially and most definately on the floor.

A more accurate statement is Lamar Odom owns Josh. I don't know why, he just always has.

Nire's right though....that was a pretty sad attempt at comedy.

I challenge anyone making these "Josh...BBall IQ threads" to look at it this way. The next time you see one of those...see if you see Josh looking at the player (typically Mo Evans) he was passing to and see if he's got a look of disdain on his face. Or when you see someone miss a defensive assignment on a penetrator being funneled left or right. You'll see that same look. Go back to the 2nd quarter of the game tonight. You'll see a play where Crawford is trying to establish something on the right corner of the free throw line...he is doubled. Josh yells at him "no" and then tells him to reset it. There was a play on and instead of moving the ball as they were supposed to be...either Jamal blew past his pass point or whoever was in that corner with Jamal didn't rotate out. Josh called for the play to be reset. Then called for and got the ball...reset a new play on the left side of the floor (this was the play before the assist to Marvin for a dunk).

I can't count the number of times I've seen Josh try to lead/create with Mo like he does with Marvin or Al and Mo turns away from the pass. I see more of a transitional element to the team right now. There are players on the team "Al, Josh, Bibby, Marvin, Zaza" that are all trying to play the same way...push the ball up the floor, move the basketball...play to the teams athleticism, defensively trying to keep teams off the baseline etc. there are other players on the team who are stuck playing one on one or trying to feed off of Joe/Jamal misses/passes. Something has to give. There is a battle for the team going on right now for style of play. I see Joe as on the fence but not committed, Jamal not participating, Bibby unable to play to the level he wants. Collins is doing great work on the defensive end one on one but not fitting in otherwise.

This is what I believe is holding Teague and JC2 back. they're playing like they are still in college defensively and offensively they are not running the offense but instead are playing a lot of one on one.

The difference between Hinrich and Bibby is 4 inches and anticipation. Defensively, that would stop 5 buckets a game and create 3. Hinrich could make as much as a 15 point difference on some nights without scoring much of a lick.

Basketball is a game of runs and Bibby's height/footspeed lead to momentum shifts that turn 2 points into 10 points in a blink. Hinrich does not have that issue.

If you want to get crazy? http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5860749

Picks would have to be involved.

The Hawks should be looking to move their long term contracts. Unless there is a trade that makes them legit contenders now, I wouldn't trade Jamal or Bibby because those contracts will end relatively soon. If the Hawks do make a move, it should be with a view to putting themselves in position to add real impact players down the line by moving the longer contracts of non impact players now.

That is the exact wrong thing to do given our cap situation. We are significantly over the cap. Meaning that even if all 15 million of their salaries came off the books, we could only use a couple million to resign players. But if we traded that salary away for a long term contract, that doesn't count the same against the cap.

Trading away Craw this year, Bibs anytime between now and next year's deadline is the best answer for competivity.

I can't respond to everyone who posted but I'm still trying to understand this.

Knicks Outgoing

Gallinari, Felton, Chandler, Curry, Randolph Mozgov, 3 draft picks

Knicks Incoming

Anthony, Billups, Williams, Balkman

Denver Outgoing

Anthony, Billups, Williams, Balkman

Denver Incoming

Gallinari, Felton, Chandler, Brewer, Mozgov, 3 draft picks

Minnesota outgoing

Brewer

Minnesota incoming

Randolph, Curry

My head is spinning.

Knicks get better at small forward. Knicks get worse at Center, 6th man, worse cap situation. A wash at the point due to age. Worse at defense (I guess). Carmelo is great but I'm not sure this addressed their team needs.

Denver gets better at depth? I honestly don't know how this helped them except the Carmelo saga is over and they now have the pieces/picks to make a few more trades.

Minnesota got??????? 13 million in salary and an overpaid big if Curry is ever healthy, not overeating and not harassing his chauffer???

I guess this is why I'm not an NBA GM!!!

I agree and I'd rather keep Marvin as opposed to Jamal but Marvin probably has more trade value unless we're trading Jamal for a bad contract so I can see why the team would look to move Marvin and based on his overall production with us I can see why they'd want to re-sign Jamal as well.

Jamal's contract is expiring. He has more value based on the team.

Let's see if I can apply some clarity to this thread.

Take the top 3 players off of most any team in the NBA. Insert JJ, Josh, Al. Is that team a + .500 win team?

Let's try for a moment. Think hard. Use Miami as an example. Take away Lebron, Wade, Bosh. Could a team with Chalmers at the point and Big Z at the center win 41 with JJ, Josh and Al? I believe it could and would.

So let's not perceive anyone on the team untouchable at this point except for those 3. for the sake of argument anyway.

Trade assets in order of Salary/attractiveness (from my perspective).

Jamal - 10 million/expiring.

Mo Evans - 2.5 million/expiring

Josh Powell - 992,680/expiring

Marvin Williams - 6.7 million / 4 years remaining (starter on 50% of the teams in the league at the 3 or 4).

Jeff Teague - 1.5 million / 3 years remaining (backup on 50% of teams in the league...cheap)

Zaza Pachulia - 4.2 million (there are teams out there worse off than us at center, Zaza would be a cheap starter).

Rest are all filler, little value in the league.

I believe the Hawks have their 1st round draft picks for 2011,12,13 all available. I believe the Hawks have all 3 second rounders, Houstons 2nd rounder in 2011(David Anderson trade) and Phoenix's in 2012 (childress trade)

So what does that = you ask? there is 27 million in contract to trade. About 16 million of which is expiring. there are at most 2 first and 5 second round picks to trade. There is also a trade exception to use in the event you want to take back a post season rental (for ex: Melo).

I took a very long time considering this instead of dismissing it just out of hand.

I'd prefer fall down in an a poorly cleaned pig pen then take a chance on Thabeet for 2 years.

However, I can't stand Maurice Evans even more and if it could get Mo out of town and ensure the Hawks can't resign him next year, I could see it. Here is a deal under which it would work. Realize that with an almost 5 million dollar salary, Thabeet is no small risk when you consider our salary cap issues.

http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/5849470

This trade is conditional to getting a big man coach like Oakley, Hakeem the dream, Kevin Willis or the like to spend this summer beating the tar out of Thabeet.

I suggest you check last years game logs before you dig your hole any deeper.

I know you're not talking about me. Before camp even posted i said few people can play the all around game that Smith did tonight regardless of the competition.

I'm comparing 5 years of watching him miss game winners, seeing others tip in his missed shots (I can think of Josh doing this twice last year alone), and a yearly repeat performance of him disappearing in the playoffs.

We should probably also keep in mind JJ has been putting up Marvin like numbers since he made the all-star team against the same competition.

Fair is fair!!!

Joe "the 120 million dollar man" Johnson's last 5 games against that same competition.

13.8 ppg

3.6 RPG

4.8 APG

28.6 3PT%

41.2 FG%

2 total steals and no blocks.

2.8 T/O per game

To be even more fair...Horford since Jan 1.

14.67 PPG

10.0 RPG

4.48 APG

1.33 BPG

.67 SPG

55.3% FG%

1.29 T/O

Al's numbers against those same teams have trailed a bit except for Rebounds and Assists.

and Cap....I know what you're saying about having him at the 4 but the advantages of having him at the 3 and having a true center in the game far outweigh his ability to cover wings off the dribble.

You are comparing a sample size of 5 games to a sample size of 18 games. Is that your idea of an apples to apples comparison?

JJ has consistently played well against good teams. Last year his big games were in tight games against good teams, not walkovers against losing teams.

JJ is a choke artist!!!

Only because I didn't want the "JJ trying to make the all star game and shooting 20 times a game" stretch in Dec/Jan not ruin the sample. We've seen JJ enough to know he'll get his stats during the year by volume shooting and then evaporate in April.

We should keep in mind that the Hawks have only played 5 games in 2011 against winning teams. Putting up big numbers against the Wizards, Pistons and Bobcats is nice but lets see if he can keep this up against good teams.

We should probably also keep in mind JJ has been putting up Marvin like numbers since he made the all-star team against the same competition.

Fair is fair!!!

Joe "the 120 million dollar man" Johnson's last 5 games against that same competition.

13.8 ppg

3.6 RPG

4.8 APG

28.6 3PT%

41.2 FG%

2 total steals and no blocks.

2.8 T/O per game

Smoove said in the postgame interview that he intends to play hard every game the rest of the year to prove to EC coaches that he should have been an all-star pick.

Not sure if he intends to also play hard against WC teams or plans on going all out and simply play hard in every game.

What a dumb statement - :rolleyes:

(P.S. - great win though and great game by Smoove)

FYI, He's been bringing it for a while which is why the Josh bashing has been so funny.

2011 stats through 19 games

18.5 PPG

9.5 RPG

3 APG

1.21 SPG

1.21 BPG

47.7 FG%

32% 3PT%

2.52 TPG (turnovers)

Last 10 games

19.9 PPG

9.2 RPG

3.1 APG

1.3 SPG

1.4 BPG

53.6 FG%

30% 3PT%

2.7 TPG (turnovers)

Another FYI - Most of the last 10 games have been playing significant time at the Small Forward.

Hawks are the dumbest team in the league. They dominate the inside in the first half, so what do they do in the 2nd half? Act like they are in the 3 point shootout in All-Star Weekend. If I was the coach, I would tell the next person who shot a 3 pointer to sit his butt on the bench. I wouldn't be able to coach Smoove. I honestly don't think anyone can. He is the most stubborn player ever.

I knew there would be one person. Okay...what pray tell did Josh do this game to lose it for us. Go ahead and enlighten me. What was wrong with his 11 of 17, 2 of 4 from 3, 28 point game tonight?

Possibly because whatever lineup change he had in mind couldn't happen with Horford out?? Like maybe he was considering starting Twin, Horford and Marvin and benching Smith and with Horford out he doesn't have enough talent in the front court to absorb not having Horford and Smith starting? It's just a guess but it's not fair to call him out like that when we don't have a full lineup for him to work with.

Again, why is it Smith getting benched after the blowout. Josh and Marvin were the only ones giving considerable effort.

Mo Evans, Bibby, Zaza....all not functioning well right now. Joe Johnson took 8 shots, scored 6 points in 22 minutes and forced 5 turnovers in that game. Why in the hell is that game on Josh?