thecampster

Milwaukee scored 34 points in the 4th quarter. They scored an average of 21.3 the other 3. That's why they lost. Crappy 4th quarter defense loses games every time.

Before you guys ship Smith out of town, I'd like to point out he is the only Hawk of the starting 5 to have a positive +/- for the night.

In order.

Bibby -14

Horford -13

Johnson -6

Collins -4 (13+ minutes)

Smith +1

Notables

Marvin -6 (12+ minutes)

Evans -5 (13+ minutes)

3 blocked shots by Smith (0 for rest of team) 11 rebounds (led team).

:conversation:

I know that there are a lot of very smart Hawk fans out there. I appeal to you. Explain a couple

of things to me that the old man just don't understand.

#1 - Why is it that, if Hawks win a game against one of the teams that have a similar

record as the Hawks, it's considered an upset? I know that a lot of our players aren't

really known around the NBA. Another topic here relates how a second string center

in the west has more votes than Horford for the center position in all star balloting. That

has to mean that we get no respect. Still, we have a good record. How can all wins against

teams with a similar record be considered an upset?

#2 - In second games, when the Hawks play back to back, our winning % is so good. Hawks

are very hard to beat in that 2nd game. Why? How can this be? Check the records. If we

don't have the best record in the NBA in this one, we're close. There has to be a reason.

So, come on Hawksquawk buddies, help the old man out. Explain this to me.

:help wanted:

I have noticed less travel during back to backs this season. During most of them we've seemed to play at least one game at home. That's one airplane right, not 2.

Also, i think LD's rotations have limited the wear and tear on players this year (although injuries haven't helped).

Also, if you remember during the offseason, LD was hyping conditioning. The players were running non stop and there was a lot of talk about it. That might be helping some on the back to backs.

just to add some clarity.

Josh was 6 of 18 but Joe was 8 of 24, Al went out with a sprained ankle, no Marvin again. Given the opportunity for happy Josh shooting poorly or putting the game in the hands of Mo Evans, I'd have to take happy Josh. There were a few sets out there where you would have had to consider Jason Collins your number 3 option (eeek).

Crawford was 8 of 15 and Bibby shot well too. Personally on nights Joe is not shooting well, I'd like to see a draw and kick game with Joe and Bibby for Bibby to get more 15-20 foot jumpers. He just automatic from there if he catches in rhythm and it's our best way to take the burden off Joe and Crawford.

We are now tied for third place in the East

And Miami is losing to the Clippers at the half by 10

It is frustrating to see Al keep having these 6 for 9 or 8 for 12 shooting nights. Al gets hot and then something happens

and they stop going to him. I agree that the offense needs to stop centering around jump shooting and more around

Al and Smith.

One of the biggest reasons for that is Al and Josh are willing to give the ball up to each other and their teammates (as evidenced by their assist numbers). The same can not be said for our guards (other than Bibby) as they tend to dominate the ball whenever allowed. Even Teague has fallen into this trap. In a game last week he had 3 break aways with players trailing and each time he insisted on trying to take a bigger player to the bucket alone instead of using the trailer.

Joe won't pass unless there is no shot there or time is running down and Jamal and Jordan Crawford have little conscious.

Running more through Al and Josh would be beneficial. Much like the Jordan/Pippen Bulls did. Pippen and Grant handled the ball and facilitated a great deal.

Unfortunately the "little things" don't include points. I don't have a problem with Collins starting against big, high scoring centers but having a full time starter with a PER of 5.7 isn't going to work.

There is a reason why the Hawks were able to sign him for a 1 year, $1.3 million deal.

That reason is he was 40lbs overweight....an issue that has been corrected and shows in his athleticism.

He would be a terrible fit for a team that has trouble scoring. He would be a God send for a team like Golden State who was badly exposed tonight in the paint.

for our team, a team with 2 very athletic players in Smith and Horford, his difficiencies are easily compensated for.

Discovered something disturbing in my stat digging this morning.

The hawks have played 31 games thus far.

They are 19 and 12.

they have played 18 games against team who are not currently in the playoffs. 13 against teams that are.

That means they've played a soft schedule and it's going to get harder.

By contrast San Antonio has played 28 games, won 25.

They've played 14 playoff teams, 14 non playoff teams.

Not only has San Antonio won more but they've played a harder schedule.

Boston has played 16 playoff teams only 11 non playoff teams. A much harder schedule. and of course they are better.

This does not bode well for the Hawks. I know we've played with injuries and played more games (fatigue) but these numbers suggest we are really barely better than a .500 club.

piling on to something graymule said in another post.

Fatigue may have something to do with it. We've played more games that anyone else in the league right now, 31. A few have played 30. most have played 28 or 29. Sacremento has played only 26.

I know there were a lot of back to backs but didn't realize we were that far ahead. That may help with rest come playoff time.

I say let the kid go ahead and shoot these outside shots and forget that historically he's been an abysmal long range shooter. We're far enough into the season with him shooting nearly 50% from downtown to think that this is a fluke and and if it's really not a fluke people are going to have to start guarding him out there and then he'll be able to drive right past them.

He was a consistent outside shooter in high school. A do it all player. No idea why he couldn't shoot at first in the pros.

As my dad says all the time, "But that's not the issue here." The overall point of contention is that Smoove is defying his coach...and you just don't do that. Especially when the coach is right. In essence, Drew likely does not care that he is making 46% from the limited sample size of threes he has attempted this year, or that he has a seemingly improved jumper. Instead, he is pissed off that although Josh is much better as a player, and is more useful to the team, when he plays near the basket, he still too oftentimes likes to take jumpers early in the shot clock, refuse to attack the rim, or clamp down defensively in the paint.

Period.

That is not it...period. The author does not know what the problem is but was only offering conjecture based on widely held opinions.

Truth be known, none of us know what is said in the locker room or behind closed doors. We don't know he's defying the coach and neither does the article writer. Logic would tell us that if he's shooting 3 times as many jumpers this year, it's because it's a part of the offense. This is just another national writer who doesn't know anything about the Hawks making wild conjecture. Josh wasn't benched because he shoots jumpers. Josh was benched because he was already 4-13 but hoisted up 2 more shots back to back, that were forced and missed them. He wasn't playing team ball. He was not only off but caught JJ disease and tried to shoot his way out of it. He tried to be a hero and I've noticed from Drew he'll have none of that. He pulled Crawford a few games earlier for the same thing.

These bash Josh threads have really got to stop. The guy is 3rd on the team in points and assists, 2nd in rebounds, 1st in steals and blocks, has his FT percentage over 70% and is 2nd on the team in 3 point %. Other than 2.6 turnovers a game, he isn't hurting his team at all.

Joe Johnson on the other hand signed a 120+ million dollar contract in the offseason while hiding an elbow injury from the team. He has seen a reduction in points, steals, rebounds, fg%, 3pt % and ft %. If you want to see someone who's killing this team right now, just look at ole' number 2. They are winning without him. The Hawks would not be so fortunate without Josh.

5 times this year Josh Smith has shot below 40%.

12 times this year Josh has shot 50% or higher.

Before tonight, he had a personal PER rating of 20.37 good for 38th in the league (30th among players with 30 or more minutes per game).

I've always heard you choose your fight wisely. The Hawks have won 14 games this year. I can honestly say we don't win 7 of those without Josh Smith.

The Hawks have lost 8 games this year. I can't think of one of those game we lost solely because of Josh Smith.

The author needs to pick a different target. Joe Johnson easily cost us 3 of the games during our 4 game losing streak.

You don't trade 25 year old stat stuffing talent because you don't like that he pouts. He's emotional. Basketball is an emotional game. The same player that pouts is also the same guy jumping off the bench to cheer on his replacement when Powell was having such a good game the other night. He's the same guy who lost his mind on Marvin's dunks.

Oh and Josh went for 19/13/4/3/1 tonight and once again he and Horford are the reasons we won the game tonight.

I'm really glad you guys aren't my boss. One foggy day head at work when someone else is out sick and you want to ship me out to the top of the Rocky Mountains in Winter.....trey harsh.

The 2 ghost fouls on Josh was disturbing. That seemed to scream of the refs trying to keep the game close. He was borderline on the first but the second was excessively clean.

Just adding my 2 cents here. Half of the problem of Josh at the 3 is a lack of a defensive presence beyond him. Josh can't play up on SF's because if you the get by him, there is no one behind him to contest. Al typically has his hands full with the opposing center.

A true defensive center, Al at the 4 and Josh at the 3 gives ATL a team most can't handle size wise but move them up a slot and they are very small.

The real issue right now is at the point. Defensively we can't stop anyone. In my opinion, I'm starting to agree with Diesel on the solution (although not the problem). Marvin and Crawford could net us a big and a big defensive SG. I would trade Crawford and Marvin and start Joe at the point. Just my opinion but I don't want Joe taking the Game Winning shot against the other teams 3's. But I do want Joe taking that shot over the other team's 1.

Defensively, I would go long since big isn't an option.

Stats from the last 3 games.

Josh - 22.7 PPG, 10.3 RPG, 3APG, 1SPG, 3.3BPG, 4.3 to 57.4 FG% (3/4 from 3 and 73% on FT)

Horf - 18.3 PPG, 8 RPG, 3.7APG, .3SPG, 1.3 BPG, 1 to 56.7 FG%

Joe - 17 PPG, 2.3 RPG, 4.7 APG, 2SPG, 0BPG, 2 t0 46.3 FG%%

I knew it was bad for Joe. Didn't realize it was that bad. Good to see Josh and Al picking up some slack with Joe sick. When you are getting 41 points, 18 boards, almost 7 assists and nearly 5 blocks a game from your PF and C it's hard not to win.

Other than the turnovers, Josh is playing out of his mind.

After another night of no perimeter defense, Marvin Williams asks?

Josh's shot selection this season.

Player------------At Rim-------------------less than 10 feet------------10-15 feet--------------16-23 feet---------3 pointers

Josh -------2.5 of 3.2 - 78.59%---------.8 of 2.2-38.5%----------0.0 of 0.5-0%------------1.7 of 4.0-42%---.5 of 1-50%

So on jumpers 16 feet or greater he's 2.2 of 4.5....for 4.9 points in 5 attempts. That's reasonable. As long as it stays like this, the only problem with him shooting jumpers is he's not getting to the line. He's dropped by 1.5 attempts a game in FT's and 1.5 shot attempts a game too. Which is why the drop in scoring average.

I think people have been hating on Joe since last season. I think when Joe called out the fans, the few fans we have started to hate on Joe. Nobody considered that maybe he was right?

So that's one reason.

The second reason that hate on Joe is because he got paid more than Lebron did this summer. They hate that for two reasons. Reason 1 is that it proves that ASG were not as broke and bankrupt as the media was saying. The Media really wanted the ASG to come off as not being able to afford a good team. Reason 2 is because they didn't think that Joe was worthy of so much money. They thought that Joe should make Josh Smith Money.

The Bottom line here is that people failed to recognize that Joe is the best player on the team. Joe is the star of this team weather they like him or not. He is the most complete player and he does deserve to be mentioned in the circle with Pierce ,Stoudamire, and Paul. So Joe has some haters, but with success there will be haters.

I think that's debatable. Being a one on one scorer is not the only part of basketball. If it was, Jamal would be best. I think the biggest "problem with Joe's game" and considering him the same class as the top 10 players in the league is his game impact. Joe is not an impact player. He gets his points. He gets his stats but rarely do you say, "Joe just won us the game with that play". Great players make the other team doubt if they can overcome a stellar effort from that player. Great players can "will" their teams to victory. I never get that from Joe. He's a very, very good player but he isn't an impact player. His first year in with the Hawks proved that. They still stunk with Joe.

There are times that Dwight Howard takes over a game and there is nothing you can do about it. There are times Pierce does the same. Kevin Durant is definately that guy. Garnett used to be that guy. Barkley and Malone were definately those guys. Kidd used to be that guy. About 10 times a year, Josh Smith is that guy (see last 2 games). Joe does it a few times a year but you rarely walk away saying "there is no way Joe was going to let Orlando win today".

I watch every single Hawks game and it doesn't seem like Joe is degressing at all. If anything it seems when he gets a one on one he draws in the double team and then passes it to the open man instead of shooting his fade away and i have no problem with him doing that. This Hawks team without Joe, lets face it, would be a couple levels under where they are right now. If you look around the league in places like Chicago and Oklahoma and Denver would die to have a great 2 guard because they know it would put them over the hump. (I dont consider Durant a 2). I'm sure that when Joe is needed in big or tight games he will be ready to play and on his game. Alright so im ready to get ripped for this post, so what are your thoughts?

Well since you asked, I'm going to give it to you but don't take this too serious.

Joe is too late to react to a double team and finds himself trapped too often. This leads to turnovers or bad shots for teammates (IE. the passing to Josh with 3 seconds on the clock...as good as a turnover).

Joe doesn't know when to stop shooting. Good players look to defer when their in a slump but Joe tends to press. Tries to shoot his way out of a slump and often times to the detriment of the team.

Joe doesn't seem to have his teammates back at the level you want the team captain, highest paid player to do. This is an unfortunate knock. It's just his personality though. Joe isn't a bad teammate but he is very Joe oriented.

By having top salary, max salary he has invited the scrutiny to be a superstar in all parts of the game and his game is superstar on some nights but average on others. I think the issue is with consistency.

You think an ESPN guy who makes his living peddling rumors knows more than a beat writer? Wow. No, that's not how things work in sports journalism. A beat writer is not "small-time."

That is the single most ridiculous sentence ever written in the history of the universe.

Beat writers live and die with the team. They know things the players' mother's don't. Not sure Jack meant that the way it sounded but yeah...Chad Ford was just speculating based on what he knows about our roster.

when Marvin went down and we brought Zaza in at C how well we played with that lineup?

Al at the 4, Smith the 3 and Joe and Jamal at Guards.

Al was too quick for the opposing PF and I think Josh can handle the 3 if he doesn't dribble too much.

It's an interesting lineup that I think we should use more often. It creates mismatches for us all over

the place.

Nice work LD!

Interesting Jack. Previously, you've been a Josh detractor and my guess has been it's a preference for Horford. Now in this estimation I agree. If we're comparing traditional roles I would say.

C - Pachulia = Horford. There are some things Zaza does that Al just doesn't and this is really a wash matchup.

PF - Horford > Josh. Now hear me out. I think Josh is the superior impact player on the floor and is my favorite Hawk. But in the context of the traditional NBA team, I prefer Al in the PF role with Josh at the 3. At the 5, Al is stopped on 2 or 3 moves to the basket a game that he would succeed against a smaller player at the 4. Al is a more impactful player (personally) at the 4. Defensively, Al is overmatched against any legit center in the league but he can defend nearly every PF in the league man up.

SF - Josh > Marvin. Now hear me out again. Driving to the basket, there is no real SF in the league that can stop Josh. The type of passer Josh is, is better suited to the SF role. Josh is showing this year he can improve on his outside shooting but his game is best suited to slashing to the basket. Also, there is no SF in the league strong enough to handle him in the post. His weakness here is lateral quickness defensively to stop a driving SF. Marvin is a slightly better on ball defender but Josh's impact off ball makes a much bigger impact.

Additionally, were Marvin to come off the bench with the 2nd unit, he would provide much needed protection for Teague/Crawford against the double team. Against second unit talent, Marvin is an all star....against 1st unit talent he is an average starter.

Josh's style of play is designed to be a havoc causer at both ends of the floor and I'd submit that he is better enabled to be that kind of player at the 3. Al's style of play is to be a reliable stabilizer and he is better suited to do this at the 4. Lastly, Zaza's play this year and his total buy into the new schemes has earned him the extended playtime. With Etan Thomas doing nothing on the bench, there is no downgrade in using Thomas to eat these extra minutes.

Josh took another 3 pointer last night :(

Did anyone else notice how Josh scurried out to the 3 point line when the clock was winding down so he would have an excuse to chuck one up?

OMG it was the last possession of the game. That is such a reach and Bibby called for him to come out and get it.

Assuming the Hawks take that next step this year and make it to the NBA finals. The real answer is they pay Jamal. They'd then be able to afford the luxury tax to keep the team together.

But Josh Smith is not going anywhere. For the current season, he is 1 rebound a game short of averaging a double double with 3.5 assists, 1 steal and 4.5 blocks a game. From the power forward spot. He's not going anywhere.

The people who "bash" Josh only do it because we know how incredible he could be if he just played to his strengths. When he settles for jumpers he's wasting his unique ability and harming the team. I'll never understand how anyone could defend that.

I understand it. I completely understand it. Some people feel the need to constantly correct. Some people don't. There is nothing wrong with pointing out a problem in a player's game. But sometimes it gets excessive (see Diesel's 800 or so topics on why Marvin was a waste). You can be right on something but actually lose your credibility based on your approach. When you hammer, hammer, hammer away at one glaring flaw in a player's game because it drives you crazy, you naturally bring out the love in people that appreciate just as strongly that player's contributions.

The first thing people arguing against Josh taking jumpers need to understand is that there are other people in the world that see it differently. Even if you are right...100% right....there are people that will not and refuse to see it. They prefer to focus on something else. I cringe too when Josh bends those knees at 23 feet, but I prefer to not to put a saddle a mustang. His personality is his biggest strength and his biggest flaw. If you bottle him up, I think you get a lot less of the other good stuff that you love him for.

You see it all the time. Players wear out their welcome in a town or get tired of the antics of the owners or fans in a town and they move on and it's in that new town they reach their full potential. Patience is often the best course.

I realize I'm a little biased as a Josh Smith fan but I'm having a hard time with all the hub bub. currently Josh and Joe are shooting the exact same percentage (44.9 and 44.8). Joe is taking 6.6 more shots a game.

Smith is missing 5.4 shots a game....Joe is missing 9. Josh is shooting 1 3pointer a game. Joe is shooting 4.3 and averaging 30.8%.

I am in no way saying Josh should shoot from the outside more or Joe less, but I'm just not seeing the case for all the drama. The context of Josh really shouldn't be shooting based on percentages is technically accurate. But there sure seems to have been a great deal of space in this thread alone discussing what is a point or two a game. I guess I see it as throwing a guy a bone for all the steals, blocks, rebounds. If it keeps his head in the game to let him fire up one or two and the percentages show it costs us 1 or 2 points a game on the offensive end but gets us Great Josh on the defensive end, I'm willing to make that sacrifice.

Psychology is a big deal in the NBA. These are massive egos we're dealing with.

A big audible sigh here. Not sure where he was at all tonight.

Might be a sign of the times with the Hawks too where there just aren't enough shots to go around when everyone can score the ball one way or another.