thecampster

NO that is not correct. 29. Can a team sign all the free agents it wants (up to the cap limit) and THEN re-sign its own free agents using the Bird exception? Yes, but there's a restriction. A team's free agents continue to count as team salary (against the salary cap). This charge is called the "free agent amount." So there may not be enough money under the cap to sign another team's free agent, because the team's own free agents are taking up all their cap room. ( Source: http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q29 ) So in the case of wade his option year salary of 17million counts against the cap until he signs with another team and his current team. I know that is not allowed. I'm trying to figure out if I'm calculating the salaries wrong.

So I did the math. They have 4 players under contract right now. DWade (player opt out) - $17,149,243 Michael Beasley - $4,962,240 James Jones - $4,640,000 Mario Chalmers - $847,000 That's 10.4 million without Wade, 27.5 million with him. Cap is 57.7 million. Since they only have 4 players signed there is an 8 player penalty pf 473,604x8 for $3.788,832. So even with Wade signed, the actual free space for Miami as far as I can tell is about 26.4 million (granted 2 players signed refunds 2x473,604 to that so closer to 27.3 million available). Am I missing something? That doesn't seem like enough to sign both Lebron and Joe or any other 2 free agents. One would get 17 million per and the other about 10. Then the roster gets filled with vet minimum vets and their 4 draft picks. Those draft picks are all second round and would cost against the cap since they are drafted (owned by the team) no matter what order they are signed. Someone who knows for sure please help with this math.

That is correct. Sorry. On another note, I also mistated the Knicks cap situation. since they now have only 6 committed contracts, there is a 6 player rookie minimum cap hold in effect. It's a little less than 3 million. So technically speaking their current cap situation is 21.7 million, not 18.7 million. With each player signed, they get a reduction of the cap hold by 1 mimimum rookie contract. What that means is if they sign Amare first at 18 mil first year like they would be capable of doing, That would be a cap of 39.2 charge leaving them 18.5 million to sign. If they signed JJ for 16.5 first year that leaves them 2 million to sign new players. However if they signed Lee for 10 million first year, that still counts against the cap and would only leave them about 7 million for JJ. Same song, different verse, because the players are signed in the same year and Lee's contract alone doesn't put them over the cap, it counts like any other player signing. They don't have enough money to sign all 3.

I went over this in another thread. The Knicks will not be able to afford all 3 (Amare, JJ, David Lee). They will be about 5 million short.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/7083521.html Houston Chronicle

FYI, no problem. The numbers may be off a bit. Couldn't find an exact on the maximum salary for this year for a 9 year player so added 250 thousand to last years and pretended. That article is pretty insane by the way. Over 100 questions to clear up the salary cap.

Because free agent is a relative term when discussing the NBA salary rules structure and bird rights. JJ may not technically belong to the Hawks but JJ's earning potential is directly tied to the Hawks. No player leaves money on the table and playing nice with a sign and trade will get JJ a 6th year and a little more per year. Think Speedy Claxton. When Speedy signed his last deal, do you really think he thought he'd be out of the league in a few short years? No he did not. Nothing is guaranteed in the league of blown out knees. You have to get as much money as you can each contract. MrHonline did a write up about 7 weeks ago on the amount of money JJ loses if he goes 5 years as opposed to 6 and it was huge...like 30 million. The basics of it are covered in this link, question 80. http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm 80. Why would teams or players want to do a sign-and-trade? Teams benefit because it allows them to get something in return for players they would otherwise lose to free agency. Players benefit because they can get a richer contract, and/or play for a team that is over the salary cap and otherwise wouldn't be able to afford them. Unlike the new team, the player's original team can use the various Bird exceptions (as long as the player qualifies) to sign the player without regard to the cap. Also, if the player's original team has full Bird rights, they can offer the player larger raises (10.5%, as opposed to 8%) and more seasons (six, as opposed to five -- see question number 46 for more information). So sign-and-trade is a useful tool for teams that are capped-out and unable to offer players large contracts. Question number 46 is as follows: 46. Is there a limit to the length of a contract or the raise a player can receive? Yes, but it depends on the type of contract: Type of contract Maximum years Maximum raise Notes Larry Bird exception 6 10.5% See question number 19 Early Bird exception 5 10.5% See question number 19 First round draft pick 2 plus 2 option years Defined in salary scale See question number 41 Certain restricted free agents 5 Can have a substantial raise in year 3 See question number 37 Extensions 6 (including remaining seasons of current contract) 10.5% of the salary in the last season of the contract being extended. See question number 51 Other 5 8% Some exceptions have a shorter maximum length. See question number 19 Incidentally, raises take effect July 1 of each year. So using fuzzy math. The knicks offer JJ the max for 5 years. The first year salary would be about 16.5 million. 2nd - $17,820,000, 3rd - $19,245,600, 4th - $20,785,248 and 5th - $22,448,067. Ffor a grand total of $96,798,915 for a total contract. The Hawks sign JJ and trade him to the Knicks for a 6 year deal. First year 16.5 million. 2nd $18232500, 3rd - $20,146,912, 4th - $22,262,338, 5th - 24,599,884, 6th - $27,182,871. For a grand total of $128,924,505 or $32.1 million more. That sir is why JJ would want the Hawks to work out a sign and trade because you can bet your left butt cheek that the ASG is not paying that joker $129 million dollars over 6 years to choke in the post season. And by the way, for all you guys screaming we need to resign JJ, that will most probably be the cost. Do you really want to resign the choke artist at a cost of $129 million over 6 years?

no, totally cool. I'm by no means an expert on any of this but from everything I've heard, double SNT's could be used repeatedly this offseason. There are too many names and double snt is too helpful in cap manipulation right not to not be used. These players want that last year to get the bigger up front and the longer security going into labor troubles. It's a big deal. Plus most of the sites putting up cap numbers are not accurate as they are not listing rookie and RFA cap holds (like our cap hold for Chillz and the new rookie).

OH no they can't. The cap for this season is set at 57.7 million. They have currently under contract $18,637, 293 (source: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm) That leaves them $39 million. Lee's contract has to come off the books first. Even if he signs 3rd, since they are under the cap, they must count Lee's salary under the cap and the new player salaries will have to fit under the cap. Assuming both JJ and Amare signed for 17 million each, that's $34 million. That would only leave them $5 million for Lee. Per NBA rules, you can go over the cap to sign your own player. But for accounting purposes, that players contract is counted before the signing of othe team's free agents. Option 1: Lee signs a 1 year deal non qualifying offer. Highly unlikely, with the addition of 2 big name players, Lee's production will go down and negatively affect his value. Option 2: Lee signs a multiyear extension for 9 million per season starting. If he does this, the accounting brings the team salary to 27.7 million, leaving 30 million to sign free agents. This leaves the Knicks with only 30 million to sign 2 big name free agents or about 15 million a piece and at only 5 years. Highly unlikely they get 2 players and this leaves them no one on the roster as only vet minimums can be signed after that. Option 3: Lee signs a multiyear extension as above but to get the 2 players mentioned signed, the Knicks have to find a taker for Eddy Curry's one year salary of 11.3 million meaning they have to fork up probably 2 lottery protected firsts. Option 4: The Knicks find a way to dump Curry on another team packaging their other talent and or double sign and trading their FA's. Option 5: David Lee gets a 10 million dollar per year, 5 year offer to play alongside Lebron/Wade in Miami where there are no state income taxes. New York decides not to match to give themselves cap flexibility next year. Option 6: The Knicks sign and trade David Lee to one of the teams they are stealing a free agent from, sign and trade Duhon to one of the teams they are stealing the other free agent from and add incentives for one of the other team to take Curry off their hands so they have enough money to sign Bosh to play along side Amare and JJ. If I were the Knicks and I could make this happen, this is where I'd be working towards. Remember that a big expiring contract like Curry's will be important in the possible Carmelo sweepstakes next year.

and you can not honestly believe Lee is staying, can you? You can not sign your own player retro to other signings and get the credits under the cap. If they sign Amare and Johnson first, then sign Lee...Lee can only be signed for the difference between the cap and their new salaries. Your own players take precedence....it does not matter what order they sign in. If Lee is offered 10 million by another squad (very likely) and NY matches...it counts against the cap pre signing of JJ and Amare thereby limiting what you can offer those 2 players. They have to deal with Lee first if that's the case. Lee will command as much as 60% a max deal in this market and they wont' be able to bring him and others back at that price. The Knicks are hamstrung by Eddy Curry's contract.

Again. I said possible, not probable. JJ holds all the cards and every major free agency player has roster drops that can be signed back. In any normal year this would be out of the question. But with the total number of free agents and teams/players considering this a make or break year, all things are on the table. It may not happen with JJ but take the top 10 free agents. One of them will be involved in a double snt, mark it down. JJ is a prime candidate because his old team is going to be over the cap. Once the major players in free agency commit all their green to the few top level players out there, the leftover players (ie Duhon for ex) will only be allowed to sign for vet minimums/exception deals. It is in their best interest to play nice in the double snt scenario as it will net them more money. The bottom line is there is no excuse not to get value for Johnson. He is going to a team under the cap, capable of adding additional talent as long as money is right, that will have non tenured/willing players to work with. Answering your question, yes....the incentive to sign and trade is for JJ to get his 6th year which is much more money up front. JJ is most likely to sign with the team that can get him 6 years and that requires a sign and trade.

Wrong....dead wrong. Any player that is signable by the knicks that was on their roster last year is signable and tradeable to us in them taking on JJ. On that list is: Tracy McGrady David Lee Al Harrington Chris Duhon Eddie House Sergio Rodriguez JR Giddens Jonathan Bender Any and or all of those players could be signed and returned to us in signing and trading JJ to the Knicks. The incentive to the Knicks is that in signing and trading for JJ they can give him the extra year and insure his signing. The Player they sign and trade to us would do it because it would increase what we could off them to play for a winner. If JJ is signed for 17 million, we can take back up to that amount in signing and trading him away. David Lee and Chris Duhon for a total of 10 million would look really nice to get for JJ walking. Yes that is possible. I wrote a lengthy writeup about this about 5 days ago.

Far more often this season Horford, Josh, Crawford were better and won us ballgames. I would say JJ was the second best player on the floor 2/3rds of the games last season.

I got castigated last night for trying to explain this was a very good business decision. We are very close. We are no longer rebuilding. If we want to contend, we can not afford to jerk around with roster spots for non contributors and people we are developing to be backups in 3 years.

Oh this whining about the 31st pick is making my head ache. Here's the skinny. Without Joe and assuming Chilldress signs with another team and we don't have his cap hold, we only have about 8 million to spend without going over the cap. If Joe does sign, we're over the cap....period. So we have only 2 choices, unsigned rookies, or vets at the minimum (except for the exception). We currently have 8 players under contract and 8 million to spend. Add Joe and the 2 rookies and you are way over the cap, approaching the luxury tax and still only have 11 players. You still need to sign one more player bare minimum and probably 3. Even if you sign and trade chillz, you are over the cap if you sign JJ. That money to sign a vet big was way more important than developing a prospect center who had health issues at his physical. Expect Chilldress to be gone to clear his cap hold and for us to take back the bare minimum back in salary. Expect Joe to be gone and us to take back an underutilized or undercoached veteran.

I'm assuming because then you'd want us to sign Beasley. Beasley is a pot head and will be out of the NBA in 5 years.

FYI....the cheapest thing you can do in the NBA is pay a 2nd round draft pick. If they pick a vet to fill that roster spot, it will cost them the vet minimum of a million plus. Not wanting another rookie on the payroll is actually spending more money, not saving it.

Pollack and Bell on 790 the zone talked about it today on the drive home. They stated it was more than just a rumor.

He's no where near NBA ready...too thin...soft at this point. We're most probably getting Javale McGee in the Chillz sign and trade. There is your center. What we got here was moving down 3 spaces and got the same player we wanted. Less guaranteed money for 3 spots lower down....this was a smart business decision freeing up money. It doesn't seem like much but the difference between the 24th and 27th pick is about $95,000 a year. That may not seem like much but if you could save 95 grand on all 12 players that's a million more to spend on a free agent. It was a smart trade decision.

Even bigger than that. I'm pretty sure this marks the end of the Josh Chilldress is coming back talk. That means JChill is going elsewhere which means probably Washington. That means another player and salary cap space. Since JC was lost to us anyway, this trade of 24 for 2 picks we wanted anyway is really 3 players for a pick.

Very true and additionally, if you play either Josh or Al at the 3, it provides matchup problems for the other team in post ups and the ability to shoot over another player.

http://theondeckcircle.net/2008/07/01/nba-free-agency-guide-part-1-salary-cap-rules/ First, read the above article. It is chocked full of good information that should help you avoid throwing around crazy trade scenarios and should advance our discussions on certain topics. What I found interesting in this article is what is missing. It's dated, but it applies in theory. It's a short version of this article. http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm Now this article is too long to read unless you are far nerdier than I am (a hard accomplishment). Specifically what I want to draw your attention to is Question number 14 of this article which explains how a teams salary is computated. Much of the information out there is technically, factually incorrect when explaining how much money a team has under the cap to sign players due to this one restriction •A roster charge if the team has fewer than 12 players (players under contract, free agents included in team salary, players given offer sheets, and first round draft picks). The roster charge is equal to the rookie minimum salary for each player below 12. The roster charge only applies during the offseason. The minimum NBA rookie salary is: $473,604 So using three example teams (Knicks, Miami, Chicago) you come up with a problem in those teams signing players and also sign and trade deals and why they are a problem or a help. Bulls - 8 players under contract - Cap hit 4 x $473,604 = $1,894,416. So in the Bulls case, there is as much as a 1.9 million dollar incentive to take back your trash players in a sign and trade for JJ. The Bulls could take 4 players from your bench (signed by you) and trade two quality players to you to save themself 3 cap hit in signing JJ. It is lost salary against the cap to them and inhibits their signing another player. Knicks - 5 players under contract - Cap Hit 7 x $473,604 = $3,315,228. This team gets super tricky in the sign and trade department. It is in their best interest sign and trade their own players to you in signing JJ (see Duhon, Harrington, JJ, House, Rodriguez) in that they can take back extra players from you in doing so as they are under the cap (ie, Bibby - Zaza) and therefore clear up cap space for you. Additionally, you would want to make that trade because you can go over the cap to sign JJ then you can take back players in his stead but you could not just sign those players outright. Additionally, the Knicks are in a worse spot than it looks. They may have tons of cap space but they have to sign 7 players (some rookie with set salaries) in order to meet the minimum roster space requirements. Some of those salaries will have to be decent as they can not sign all low experience players and expect to also sign big name free agents. Those 7 roster spots are deadly to them. Heat - 6 players under contract - Cap Hit 6 x $473,604 = $2,841,624. Very similar issue as to the Knicks. Even if they signed 2 big name free agents, they will need to fill 4 additional roster spots minimum and there is currently a 2.841 million they can't use to sign players based on cap penalties. Players they could sign and trade in deals included, Jermaine O'neal, Quentin Richardson, Udonis Haslem, Carlos Arroyo, Rafer Alston, Jamal Magloire. Remember, we do not need to take back equal salary from them in sign and trading JJ, we only need to take back similar salary to what extra pieces are included. So for an example, the Hawks sign and trade Joe Johnson (at 17 million) and include Bibby, Zaza (roughly 10 million in salary), the Heat sign and trade back Haslem, Richardson, Alston (for let's pretend 16 million total). Miami nets 3 players on their roster making about a 1.4 million dollar improvement in their cap hit situation for signing another player and then filling their roster. The net change to the Hawks is gaining a better backup point guard for our talent, a solid big man in Haslem and a decent part time backup in Richardson. This is a big deal when considering who can sign, when and where. Just because a team has money to sign 2 big time free agents, they still have to fill out a roster with 9 deep players to compete.

There is a difference between lost money and lost money against budget. These numbers are almost assuridly lost money against budget. How does that work? Here are depictions of the two. Lost money ... Total gross - Total costs = profit or loss. So for example 100 million - 110 million = 10million Lost money against budget ... Total Gross - Total costs - projected profit = profit or loss. So for example: 100 million gross - 110 million - (projected profit of 10% of gross (10 million)) = 20 million Same budget, in one we lose 10 mil but in two we report losing 20 million. This is common procedure on most company ledgers. ASG did not lose 20 million on the Hawks, they were 20 million over budget which was probably 10 - 20 million profit projected. This was how the owners for MLB argued with the arbitrators years ago when doing their collective bargaining agreement. The reason they do this is because it's reasonable to assume money invested returns a profit. The same money they own the team with could go into bank CD's and earn 3-5% so it stands to reason they could assume a profit in their books.

You left out what I think is the biggest possibility. JJ wants to play for a winner and that means whatever team he signs for will need to have an established talent base. They will have a SG to move. Whatever team signs JJ is going to want to move dead contract weight. This sets the Hawks up to take back something of real value from another team by packaging the 24th pick which is guaranteed but low money to another team for a player from their roster that won't count against our cap just like JJ does and we move down in the draft out of the first round to draft a player with a non guaranteed contract. This helps give us the money to sign Chillz and 1 lower tier free agent. I think this is much more probable than the Hawks standing pat at 24. An example of this kind of player would be taking Eddy Curry off the Knicks hands for one year and getting a player thrown in to equal JJ's salary. We do the Knicks a favor by eating 1 year of Curry's contract and giving them the money to sign talent that fits the system. They repay us with a player and draft considerations. We send the 24th pick over this year so they aren't cap dinged for not having 9 players under contract. What that means is we'd be drafting for someone else.

Agreed. It's not like we're picking 6th anymore. Picking anywhere after 15 is a crap shoot and no team should expect that player to start.