thecampster

I used to hate these threads but over time they've grown on me (sarcasm). The constant beating of the Marvin taken at 2 threads, Josh too many jumpers threads, Joe's overdribble turn overs. Same threads over and over. It is only basketball and we could go back to winning less than 20 games a year. It could be a whole lot worse.

People lets stop trying to use stats in this argument because both sides can easily come up with some stat that makes their point.......lets just try this, being a fan of this team and watching games daily do you really think that Smoove should be shooting jumpers, just with a simple eye test, when you see him shoot that shot do you not cringe? Is there ever a time when he shoots a jumper and you think when it leaves his hand that that was a good shot and rather he misses it or not you were happy with the offensive execution that led to him getting that jumper? Do you not see him being more effective around the rim?

Now anyone who watches this team should pretty much come up with the same answers for those questions...........I don't care how many times he makes it I scream everytime he takes it because I KNOW ITS A BAD SHOT.......the thing that most posters are trying to get at is that HE SHOULD KNOW ITS A BAD SHOT BUT FOR SOME REASON THAT FACT JUST SEEMS TO MISS HIM.....we all love Smoove and everything that he brings to the team BUT we want him to be effective as possible and taking jumpers isnt effective at all

Now he did win the game with it so I don't have much to say about that particular shot but for me its about alot more than last night....its to the point with me that when I see him shooting I just get mad at him and for the rest of the game no matter what he does I'm pissed at him, it takes me about 2 quarters to actually start appreciating everything else that he does again......I love Smoove just like I do every other player on the team but the truth is the truth :beathorse:

And just like another poster brought up...His teammates keep passing to him and his coach keeps desiging sets that put him out there. There is a reason.

Last nights's Plus minus, worst to first. Season numbers to the right.

Bibby -5 (season 0)

JJ -5 (season +2)

Horford -4 (Season -2)

Powell -1 (Season +3)

Marvin +2 (Season +12)

Teague +3 (season +13)

Crawford +7 (season +19)

Pachulia +7 (Season +20)

Josh Smith +11 (season +18)

Total 3 point attempts through 2 games for Josh 3. 3 pointers made 2. Percentage 66%

Total 3 point attempts for the rest of the Hawks - 30 taken, 12 made. Percentage 40%.

Blocked shots - Josh = 11, rest of Hawks = 6 (64.7% of team Blocks)

Rebounds - Josh = 15, rest of Hawks = 75 (16.7% of team rebounds)

Assists - Josh = 7, rest of Hawks 37 (15.9% of team assists)

Total shots taken - Josh = 21 , Rest of Team = 129 (% of shots taken = 14%)

Team shots missed - Josh 12, Rest of Team = 60 (% of shots missed 16%)

Minutes per game - 26.41. Yes, that kind of impact in less than 27 minutes a game.

You guys make it sound like he's the reason for every Hawk loss and close game. The numbers tell a different story. Nothing about the numbers bears out Josh having a negative impact thus far.

I love the Saturday morning armchair quarterbacking by a bunch of guys that get sat down in the gym at the Y. Seriously guys. How many of you have as much talent as Josh, Joe, Al, Marvin or even Bibby have in their left shoe?

Last night, Marvin was a very efficient 15 points, 7 boards, 1 block in 30 minutes. If those are his averages for the year, is that enough to get the bust monkey off his back? Would Diesel show some Marvin love if he averaged that on 50% shooting?

I'm a Woody fan but I seriously doubt Woody brings Teague in to slow down Conley. I thought that was LD's most understated yet most effective coaching decision of the night.

Very astute, I agree. I watched Teague struggle with his own positioning on Offense and having to defer to Jamal a lot but then I started to notice the frustration on Conley and I put 2 and 2 together. He was working his butt off on the defensive end.

Joe was so efficient and he only played 31 min!

that was the big thing I saw from Joe last night. He seems to have bought in to letting his points come in the flow of the game and not forcing. Most of those points came very easy. Very Paul Pierce like scoring without the whining.

Really liked last night, thought the offense played well even though they don't have the offense fully mastered yet. Really liked Marvin's stat line, best +/- of the starters in 31 minutes, only missed one shot, a 3. He was aggressive, and I think this offense will help him a lot.

Did Al and Zaza play together? They combined for 48 minutes but don't think so. Zaza took over immediately, so I was fine with Al staying on the bench, and I liked the ten deep rotation. No one played more than 31 minutes (both JJ and Marvin). Even Josh Powell looked capable at points (6 rebounds in 20 minutes).

Hoping for a lot more of what we saw Friday and Saturday........trying not to take too much from the game with the Grizz missing Gasol and Randolph, but I'm encouraged

But please, is there anyone in the world who can make Josh quit the jump shots?

ESPN Box Score....

Try to remember that if Josh won't shoot the 15 footer, people back up on him and he can't drive to the basket and draw fouls. Not allowing him to shoot anything outside of 5 feet limits the floor spacing for everyone. He only took 10 shots total. 9 were jump shots, 8 were outside 10 feet. He made 4, missed 5. 2 were with less than 5 seconds on the clock. He shot 44% on Jumpers and was 1 for 1 from 3. When you consider JJ was 6 of 16 and horford was 1-5, Josh did nothing wrong. 44% on Jumpers with 9 points scored in 9 jump shot attempts is just fine.

Al and Zaza didn't play together significantly. Al got in early foul trouble and Zaza beasted so LD left him in. LD used last night to get the subs significant burn to work on their offense. The subs were much sloppier than the starters but they played vicious. Multiple bodies hit the floor...hard glass crashing and intimidating. On one play, Thebott went up for an extension dunk and Zaza went up strong to contest. He got enough to push the dunk to the backboard for the block. He could have easily backed off so as to not risk the foul but he contested strong. That's the best way I can describe the bench last night. They competed strong but not pretty.

I'm sitting at the house...waiting not so patiently. 17 minutes to tip off...GO HAWWKKKKKSSSSSS!!!!!!!

Boston has elite guard play - we don't have average guard play. They also have legit bigs to burn off the bench and excellent shooters. Oh and they play defense better than anybody.

Boston vs. Atlanta Matchup

Bibby vs Rondo - Obviously Rondo

Johnson vs Allen - I might be the 3rd biggest Joe hater on this board but Ray Allen is farther behind Joe than Bibby is behind Rondo.

Marvin vs Pierce - Despite Marvin's solid Defense, Pierce is a Hawk killer and much much better.

Josh vs Garnett - Garnett in his prime would win this matchup but this is old Kevin, not new. I'd take Josh in this matchup.

Al vs Shaq - I love Shaq but let's be real about this. At his age and lack of mobility, Al runs circles around Shaq in almost every category.

Bench - Audible sigh. Some nights we win this matchup but most nights we don't. It all depends on Jamal and Zaza.

Matchup - Atlanta runs circles around Boston as they are slow and plodding and can't recover from their mistakes. Boston mistakes against a running team are guaranteed 2 points at the other end. Most teams can't match up with Boston's size but Boston executes at a snails pace and Atlanta is athletic enough to make up for Boston's pinpoint execution.

We are not a better team than Boston but we are a matchup nightmare for them.

Atlanta vs. Heat matchup

Bibby vs Chalmers - Although not athletically up to Chalmers, I'll take Bibby's IQ in this matchup all day long. Bibby makes people around him better on offense and can still shoot lights out from 18 feet.

Johnson vs Wade - Edge to Miami here but only a slight edge. Joe is a better defender and that makes up for his deficiencies in the offensive superstar category.

Bron vs Marvin - Lebron wins this matchup going away but in Marvin's defense, he plays Lebron as well as anyone and lessens his impact some.

Josh vs Bosh - Bosh is very talented but is not a complete player. He is a talented scorer and good rebounder but he is a space killer on the floor and is only a little better than average defensively. Slight edge Josh.

Al vs whatever player they try next week - Al is far and away better than anyone would throw out there. Anyone that argues this is a blind Miami fan.

Bench - Slight edge Atlanta. Miami's bench can't score with ours and are just holding the starters spots while they rest.

Team play - It is obvious no one knows who to defer to in Miami.

summary - We are a better "team" than the heat and a terrible matchup for Boston. Only teams with big centers that are the go to on offensive sets give us real trouble. I think this thread stands on it's claim.

I am so mystified by this thread I don't know where to begin. Jack, does your Josh hatred know no end? It's the preseason. during the preseason, each game the coach works on one aspect of the game. This is purposeful. It was obvious game one he was working on Marvin. It was obvious in the televised game the other night he was working on finding spots for Bibby's shielded J. The season hasn't even started yet and you're bashing the guy. None of these games matter and they are the time to try things, get things out of your system and experiment. Wait about 10 games before you start bashing a guy like this.

I got to watch the last 3 quarters. I'd have to say my high points from the game were seeing improved defensive effort from Joe. Joe getting his points in the flow of the game and not forcing. Marvin showing signs of being much better utilized in this system and maybe the best thing I saw was the multiple curl screens at the top to get Bibby open looks. That curl screen was there all night if they wanted it.

Haven't seen anything yet. Have they announced a date yet?

I hope I'm terribly wrong, but I expect us to be a considerably lesser team. Yeah, I'm one of the few who actually liked Woody. I think he was a steadying force for us despite numerous reports that he "lost" the guys. What was our longest losing streak last year (Orlando playoff debacle notwithstanding)? Three? I just was much more comfortable with Woody flashing that ring every now and then. That meant something to me. He was a part of that Juggernaunt Pistons staff that trashed The Mighty Lakers + a couple washed up H.O.F.ers, then went on to help improve his squad EVERY SINGLE YEAR!!! Of course, I know the record improvement thing would've likely stopped this season, but now our coach is so unproven, let alone our "best" player who I've well documented my disdain for and who is reasonably expected to have a considerable drop-off by everybody with common sense of age trends and his workload. I'll have to go on recent (like the past 20 years) trends and common sense again in saying that our rookie isn't going to contribute much to speak of.

I guess we have been conditioned. Our team has made strides over the years, but it's only a matter of time before this FRANCHISE has us back on par with the Clippers of the world, and it starts with unholy contracts like the one given to that guy while hanging Craw Dog and Big Al out to dry while the rest of the Conference is busting their butts to improve, or at least shake things up a bit. I hope I'm wrong. I'll be satisfied from the season's start if Josh can develop a remotely servicable jimmy and Marvin finds himself and realizes he has a pretty good contract that he should try to live up to before retirement.

On a side note, yall saw the news on Rumeal Robinson? He's a regular White-Collar career criminal that will be hidden for some time. Damn.

If you track the record of improvement, there are 2 things you can point to that have very little to do with the coach. The first, is that every year of the "improvement" we added players that were upgrades over the previous players. Second was the maturation of those players. The best example I can give is the year we added Bibby. We finished the year 15-17 after the Mike Bibby signing and that included losing our last 3 games. Before that we were 22-28 and on pace to miss the playoffs again with a 35-47 record. The Bibby signing left us 37-42 with 3 games left. The next season we came together with Bibby as a point guard.

Here is the statistical improvement and the team transactions to the right.

Year 1 2004-2005 - 13-69 Roster included - Antoine Walker, Al Harrington, Kenny Anderson, Boris diaw, Jason Collier, Josh Childress, Josh Smith, Jon Barry, Kevin Willis, Pedrag Drobnjak, Anthony Miller, Royal Ivey

Year 2 2005-2006 - 26-56 Players added - Marvin Williams, Salim Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, Zaza Pachulia. (that was a 10 game improvement..those 4 players)

Year 3 2006-2007 - 30-52 Players added - Sheldon Williams, Solomon Jones, Lorenzen Wright, Speedy Claxton (ouch). Remember that the Josh's and Marvin, johnson, salim and Diaw are a year older....only worth 4 games. This year is an indictment as player maturity of those 6 players alone should have accounted for something.

Year 4 2007-2008 - 37-45 Players added - Al Horford, Acie Law, Mario West, Mike Bibby. All previous talent matured, added this, 7 game improvement.

Year 5 2008-2009 - 47-35 Players added - Maurice Evans, Flip Murray, Randolph Morris. Josh, Marvin, Al all mature plus a full season with Bibby and this is worth 10 games.

Year 6 2009-2010 - 53-29 Players added - Jamal Crawford, Jeff Teague.

When you look at the steady building of the team, you realize that this team would have improved regardless of who coached it. Many times I perceived Woodson as a hinderance and not a help. Go through the list and only a few impact level players left...Diaw, Harrington and Walker.....Almost the entire team is drafted or traded for in getting rid of garbage.

In my 39 years of being a basketball fan, player, coach, I have always observed, been told and taught that solid defense begins and ends with getting inside the other person's comfort zone and agitating the snot out of your own man. Never have I seen a lack of accountability been employed. "That is your man, stick with him" is the hallmark of any good coach. This is great news. Even if it's just lip service, it's better than saying "don't worry, you don't have to guard your man, just pass him to Josh and Al".

Here me out.

Cleveland, decidedly worse. Orlando the same. Miami better but different. Washington, better because they're healthy. Chicago better, New Jersey, New York better, Boston a bit worse because of age.

But how much does that affect our win loss total. We were 17-12 against these teams (I think I might be missing a game). That's hardly stellar but there were a number of losses in there we should not have taken. You have to think we could sweep Cleveland this year and just because a few of these teams are better doesn't mean they'll improve their win total against us. Specifically, New York and New jersey both got wins against us.

I'll go out on a limb and say the Hawks finish 56-26 barring major injuries.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/josh_smith/index.html

NBA.com says that J-Smoove playing for forward and guard (???) positions... How to understand that ? Or is it something new we don't know ?

Sorry for silly question but it's rather interesting info at nba.com :shy11:

P.S. I'm sorry for my bad English.. :(

They used to do sub ratings there. Based on who you sub'd in for you took their rotational position on the floor regardless of what you were doing. My guess is Mo sub'd for JJ a lot and Josh came in for Mo at the substitution. Craw came in for Bibby a lot which by the way they used to do it when I was in to fantasy sports would have made Craw a point guard. Then when Teague they would go 3 guard sets, someone like Bibby would technically be the small forward or power forward based on who he replaced. They would log minutes based on that. Then they would "qualify" a player at that position based on if he played enough minutes at that position. Obviously that system didn't last long.

I'm betting it's something like that though. It's also possible that his assist numbers being better than the majority of guards confused some nba illiterate intern filling out data in a database.

We did use Josh a great deal last year as a "point forward". A point forward is a player that gets the ball at mid range and decides to drive, dish or reset the offense. Similar to the responsibilities of a point guard but about 10 feet closer to the basket. Again, some lackey filling out data probably noticed that and assumed that made him a guard.

I hate to say this but let me break it to you man: we're not finishing with a better regular season record than Miami or Orlando. Miami is going to be out to try and get 71 wins and Orlando will be right behind them to try and not drop in seeding. We're going to finish with at best the third best record in our division.

Basketball is so much more than just marquee names. The players have to fit together on the floor. I see nightmares on that roster related to post play and point guard play. Who is going to distribute while driving to the basket? You still have to move without the ball, play your position and play solid team defense. I'm not sold that even with 3 24+ a game scorers that they can do the things necessary to mesh as a team.

The Hawks on the other hand are going to have a much better offensive philosophy. They will play for Drew. They as a team had very little faith in Woodson. That alone is worth a couple of wins. They won't be switching Bibby onto small forwards and Horford onto point guards. Lastly, only Mike Bibby will be older in a bad way on this team this year. Horford, Williams, Smith, Teague should all be older in a good way. Do not discount this. It's like a minor upgrade at 4 positions out of our top 8.

Based solely on continuity, the fall of Cleveland, the aging of the Celtics, I could see the Hawks winning 55+ games this year. I can see the Heat losing 10 games alone based on sharing the ball issues, an inability to play 5 man team defense and floor spacing. Now if Miami stays together 3 years, I could see them challenging that 71 win mark but not this year.

Lastly, remember that it's a very long season. Miami has sunk so much money into the big 3 that if one of them goes down for any length of time, they will not have the system, players to make up the difference. I'm not saying they're a .500 team, but I am saying that it's not what it looks like on paper. I see a number of players on that roster that all move at different speeds, play different types of a team game. Getting the most out of their talent is going to be a nightmare. Getting shots for the anyone not named Bosh, Wade, Lebron is going to be hard and is going to take a mental toll on those players. When players with career averages of 12 points a game start scoring 6 a game, their ego's kick in.

Bro he is better than any PG on our roster. He has been given unnecessary bad press with this LeBron myth.

I'm not sure the bad press is unnecessary. Even though I wish hateful things upon his king ness, I'm pretty sure there is an unwritten rule about not tapping your team mate's mama.

Can't you go aver the salary cap if the players already on your roster? and Mo Evans conrtact is coming off the books next year

That is a good question and it's one repeated on this site it seems weekly. I'll do my best to explain the difference between a salary cap and a luxury tax threshold.

The salary cap is kind of like a goal. It's a soft number that is a starting point for the limit you can spend. However, there are a number of exceptions that allow you to spend over the salary cap.

The luxury tax is a set in stone number that has no exceptions except that in the event of midseason trades or salaries paid partially by the league only counting the amount you paid to the player against the tax. It is higher than the salary cap (a little over 70 million this year). If your total salary is above the luxury tax, you pay a 100% penalty on that money over the luxury tax threshhold to the league. So if you had a team payroll of 74 million you would pay 74 million in salaries and about 3.67 million in taxes back to the league for violating the luxury tax threshhold.

So yes, you could go over the cap and yes you could go over the luxury tax to sign your own players. Going over the cap only proposes the penalty of not being able to sign other teams players for more than the minimum unless you have exceptions. Going over the luxury tax costs you twice as much money and locks up your future money long term.

I also think our fellow squawkers also forget a few things, like there are 29 other teams all trying to do the same thing we are, that the players have to want to come here, that their are restrictions on how a team can operate financially and a host of other things.

All in all, we're pretty spoiled as a sports city compared to other teams. Imagine you are a Golden State fan or worse yet, you live in Seattle.

Until the current ownership leaves or actually make an effort in trying to win, I am boycotting/protesting by not watching or going to the Hawks games this season and beyond. I love the hawks but I'm to the point that wish they would just pack up and leave. Hopefully more people will start boycotting the hawks so a message could be sent.

Nire gets an and 1. What else do you want Skar? They won 53 games last year. They brought JJ back (I disagree with the move, but you can't say they were cheap about it). They are 4 million from the Luxury tax and trying to get the best players they can for what little they have to spend. Be educated in your response, but what would you have had them do? Who would you have acquired realistically via free agency for less than 4 million a season that would have put them over the top?

So I read the article, took a second to digest it and have no idea what you are talking about. The article is historically, currently and contexturally accurate. The comparison made was Nowitski to Joe in the article and if you compare Dirk's production to Joe's I would have to say I'd rather have Dirk, it's really no contest and therefore the author's point is well taken that it's a strange world where Joe is paid the max but Lebron, Dirk, Wade are not.

Tracey McGrady

Let's discuss.

In his prime, I loved McGrady's game but what ails the Hawks he can not fix. What follows is the short list of our pitfalls.

-We lack a center that can compete with the top 5 or 6 centers in the league. Horford is getting amazing production given his size but he has limits.

-We have been too guard heavy in our previous approach expecting our guards to carry the offensive burden. With Bibby's decline in footspeed, this was a glaring weakness.

-Leadership - It has been coming in spurts from a few players but there has been a poorly defined pecking order among the players. Joe is obviously management's choice but the players have split leadership loyalties in a few directions.

-Our previous coaches could not gain the players' respect.

-Overly simplistic approach defensively and offensively which has allowed us to get taken apart in the playoffs by good coaches.

Unfortunately, McGrady doesn't answer any of those issues.