thecampster

I think it's fairer to say he isn't a 3 in our system (whatever that system is). If we had a center and power forward that could play well 15 feet from the basket and Josh could constantly cut then yes, he's a Small Forward. But in a system with a non penetrating point guard and isolation that requires the 3 to spot up from outside, he'd be a terrible fit. If the team had say Gortat at Center and Bosh at PF and Deron Williams at the point, then Josh at SF would work well as both players can take their man away from the basket and the point guard can get penetration whenever he wants. But not in a system where the 3 has to play on the wings (like you see poor Marvin being forced to do on 80% of our offensive possessions).

96 Hawks scare me in that group. I don't think Bibby could do anything with Mookie at either end fo the floor. Mookie was a lock down defender and everything starts with us at the point. On the inside, our half court offense would not be able to function with Mutombo in the middle. The best chance we have there is with our forwards and Al being able to draw Deke away from the basket with his mid range jumper. There is no way Laettner could function against Josh Smith. but i do think the 96 team is much smarter.

Josh's last 6 games 58.2 fg%, 18.5 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 4.3 apg, 2.67 bpg, 1.67 spg, only 2.17 TO. Only the ppg keeps that from being mvp quality and maybe 2 or 3 more ppg would do it.

I was thinking more of how he and the other guards dominated the ball in the 2nd and 3rd quarters. We were a jump shooting team during that time and that is when we struggled. We need to start playing inside out so Joe can get his more in the rhythm of the game, not dominate the ball and iso so much. His efficiency goes down. Look at our best games this year. The big guys are more involved in the offense in those games.

Just to put some perspective in here. Joe shot 13 of 31 from the floor for 41.9%. Roy shot 7 of 15 for 46.67 percent. Joe's a volume shooter and it's time we start realizing that. 31 shots, 3 turnovers is 34 possessions ending in Joe for 35 points. 1.03 points a possession. Giving credit where it's due, Joe had 9 assists tonight which is a part of his game that has been struggling of late. By comparison, Josh was 8-14 with 2 turnovers, 20 points for 1.25 points per possession. Horford was 7-10 with 0 turnovers, 15 points for 1.5 points per possession. Joe is calling his own number way too much and I personally saw more T/O by Joe tonight so I think the score keeper was being kind. Joe is doing good work but I'd like to see him follow his own advice and share the basketball more.

I think everyone wanted to trade Josh last year and we see how that woulda turned out.

Joe loses multiple possessions each game trying to dribble through a double team, or just plain not giving the ball up when the double comes. He's a momentum and possession killer. I've not been sold on him from day one. He is the only player of the top 6 that doesn't like to run. He is the weak cog at the moment to our flow and he's Woodson's crutch. The hawks won 13 games without him and 26 games with him the next year and that is as much him as it was the 2nd year of the Josh's and other maturation/additions. The Hawks have been improving every year and that is not to the credit of Johnson but to the credit of the maturation of their players, the addition of a point guard who can shoot and a couple of key acquisitions/trades. Fact is, Joe has stagnated this group some and his best value to the Hawks may be in a trade of himself and Marvin for one true stud center. Put any solid center in the middle, move horf to the 4, Josh to the 3 and let Crawford start and you have the makings of a very hard team to score on and defend.

Even more important is this 3 day layoff. We've played 7 games and now have plenty of film. That was 3 off days for the coaches to break down film to the players. Show them when they missed on switches, bad rotations, bad spacing, etc. The ability for improvement after a layoff like this is enormous. 2 games this week. The first looks to be an easy one with the 1-7 knicks. Then a very short flight to Boston with an off day in between. The Celtics will be on a similar program having had 3 days off themself and a game against the Jazz tonight and a day off before playing the hawks. I can guarantee you the Celtics have this one circled on the calendar. But if the Hawks can manage to win both of these games, 7-2 looks much much better than 5-4 or 6-3. Currently the Hawks are on pace to win 58.5 games.

I wonder how much the work with TeamUSA helped him this offseason.

Joe got the award for scoring 20 pts, 6.5 reb, 3.25 assists per game, ..25 steals, .25 blocks shooting 47% from the floor Josh didn't get considered but went for 15.25 pts, 7.25 reb, 3.5 assists per game, 1 steal, 3.75 blocks and shot 57% from the floor. Joe had 3 TO/G, Josh has 1 TO/G. Joe got his stats in 37 minutes, Josh in only 30.5. Joe = 4.75 more ppg Josh = .75 more rpg, .25 more apg, .75 more spg, 3.5 more bpg, 10% better shooting, 2 less turnovers. Josh beat Joe in every statistical category except PPG. This award is a joke. He wasn't even the best player on his own team.

Actually, I think there is a small power struggle going on in the team. I think JJ feels dissed but his play hasn't earned that "I'm LEET" status he desires. I think Josh has been trying to assume that mantle. Has anyone else noticed how he directs people on the defensive end and how his head drops when he sees Joe start to ISO on the left.

Josh leads the team this year in Assists, Steals, Blocks, FG%. He is 2nd in Rebounds and 3rd in PPG. IMO, this game is not a fluke or a one time deal. Props to Woody for leaving him in an extra minute and a half over the other starters to see if he could get that 10th rebound and a get a double/double. That's a good bone to throw a player who's working for you.

I am very sad I won't be able to go this year.

Got it...took a minute. Team PER stat for this season by rank. Josh ---- 22.41 JJ - -------21.70 Evans -- 20.01 Teague 18.84 Horford - 17.41 Bibby - ---16.61 Joe Smith - 14.55 Crawford - 13.92 Marvin -----11.33 Pachulia----7.76 That is offensive PER so far this year or positive effect on a game from an offensive standpoint. The league average is 12.58 Kobe -- 28.72 D.Wade 25.73 Lebron - 27.57 Granger - 20.72 B Roy ----25.93 Josh's stats come in ahead of Granger and behind Roy, kobe, wade and James and the whole time not being an offensive focus. Even being the focus, Joe's PER has been sub par. you might think these numbers are skewed by the 3 game sample. Last year's per for Joe Johnson was 18.23, Josh's was 17.24....very close. the year before, Josh was a 19.03 and JJ was 17.26. Volumn scoring does not mean efficiency. We complain about the extra 2.7 shots a game we don't like and forget to see how much lower a percentage Joe shoots, and the different places he doesn't have a positive affect on the game. Shooting alot is not team basketball.

Nope I totally get the idea that 2.7 attempts is 2.7 attempts too many. I'm onboard with the concept. My arguments is simple.....He's shooting a total of 58% from the floor, hitting just under 70% of his free throws, getting 5.3 assists, 5.3 boards, 1.67 blocks, 2.3 steals. He's only taking 10.3 shots a game but averaging 15ppg. My argument is that we have bigger issues than 2.7 categorized shots per game of which he makes .4. Making 1.4 would be consider good enough to stay out there. What you are arguing is 1 missed opportunity a game. Now take a look at how many times a game JJ tries to do it all himself and turns the ball over in the lane or how many times we have Zaza handling the ball at mid court.....I saw him dribbling up the floor in that Laker explosion and I went "WTF". Our discipline issues go way beyond Josh missing 1 too many shots outside of 16 feet a game. If I had to say who is the only Hawk that gets it right now, I'd say it was Al Horford. But to complain about Josh seems to be throwing stones in the wrong direction. he is 1st or 2nd in the 6 key categories of ppg, reb, FG%, *ss, stl, blocks. Joe Johnson is scoring 7 points more a game than Josh Smith but he's taking 7.3 more shots a game. This team needs to be built around Horford, Smith and if he'd get his head out of his butt, Marvin and we need to stop feeding the guards an overabundance of shots. We will never take the next step as long as Joe Johnson is treated like a superstar. Joe is leaving next year fellas. Time to start looking for a more team oriented replacement. Can someone get me a team per or effeciency rating please?

Player - FG% (year stat) Shots taken Evans-----61.5 ----------------------13 Josh-------58.1-----------------------31 Horford----50.0-----------------------36 Bibby-------46.2-----------------------26 Teague----44.4-----------------------18 Joe Smith-43.8----------------------16 JJ------------43.4----------------------53 Crawford --42.9----------------------28 Zaza--------41.7-----------------------12 Marvin-------33.3----------------------21 I think you need to pick a different target. The numbers don't bare your argument. Horford and Smith are carrying your team. Rebounding - Horford - (37), Josh (16), Marvin (15), Johnson (14) Assists - Josh (17), Johnson (16), Bibby (15) Steals - Josh (7), Johnson (5), Bibby (5) Blocks - Horford (8), Josh (5), Williams (2) 3 pt attempts - Johnson (13), Bibby (13), Crawford (10), Williams (7)...........Josh (0)

Those turnovers were happening primarily at the 3 point line.

That is exactly what I'm saying. We played with the ball out at the perimeter all night. Long shots and sloppy guard play lead to the fast break points you saw tonight. A good indication of how we played tonight is the +/- stat. From worst to best. Zaza -15 Bibby -10 Josh-10 Evans -9 Marvin -6 Joe -5 Jamal -5 Joe Smith +5 Horford +7 Teague +8 The only starter with a positive score is Horford at +7. Zaza going -15 in 16 minutes is pretty telling. By the way. For the year, the +/- stat for the starters. Horford - +26 Josh - +19 Williams - +14 Joe - +12 Bibby - +12

On the don't blame Woody question. 3 games into the season we are giving up 105 ppg with a "defensive" minded coach. Either it's the scheme's fault or he's lost the players willingness to execute the scheme. Either way, that's not a good sign. The biggest issue tonight though is this......in the first two games we forced the ball inside and let the big men dominate the game. tonight comparing the top 4 big men (horf, josh, joe smith, williams) to the top 4 guards (bibby, johnson, teague, crawford) the stats show we reverted to being a guard dominated team. Guards - 24-47 shooting, 9 assists, 15 rebounds bigmen - 10-30 shooting, 11 assists, 21 rebounds When the guards are taking almost 60% more shots and dishing out less assists than your bigs, that is a problem. The bigs were obviously somewhat active with 21 rebounds (though that shows how few opportunities they had for boards..the lakers made everything and defensively their guards made it to the lane all night.). But when your top assists man is Josh Smith AGAIN, you have a problem. What i saw all night was the guards dominating the ball and not trying to get it into the hands of the bigs with them in position. Lots of one on one and not looking up to start the offense down low like we did in the first game. The shots offered don't lie. in the wizards game it was 40 - 34....closer and in indiana, 38-40. I saw all last year a definite difference in how the team played, with how much the guards dominated the ball. First 2 games it was 78-74 in favor of the guards. this game...47-30...that is a monstrous difference. you can not win without balance.

This may be the first time I agree with a "trade marvin" post from you. If the Hawks could/would trade Joe and Marvin for an elite big (say Dirk Nowitski or a healthy Yao Ming) and could line up like this next year Teague / Bibby Crawford / Chilldress Josh / Evans Horford / Joe Smith Nowitski (Ming) / Pachulia are they better? I say you are damn skippy they are. Who the heck is going to guard that back court one on one and which of the 3 big men are you going to leave open near the basket so you can jump out and double? Think of the interior defense when you line up Smith, Horford, Yao Ming That is a huge freaking frontline. Is there any power forward in the game right now that can help on Nowitski and cover Horford...I think not.

:thumbsupsmileyanim: :thumbsupsmileyanim: All I can do is clap

This may be the smartest post I've ever seen on this board.

I'll say it again. Doug Collins is the perfect coach to pair with young talent.

Remembering Dwight Howard can't be counted on to hit the big freethrow.

I'm one of the JJ haters (hater might be a strong word, I just think he's overpaid and underperforms when you consider how much he dominates the ball) but I'm with the other guys on this. Mr. Sasquatch sir, jumping up and making statements like that just invite kharma to rear it's ugly head. I wouldn't be surprised to see JJ drop 40 on opening night and see everyone here razz you till your keyboard rebels against you for the sake of satisfying the basketball kharma gods. There are JJ supporters and haters on this board and taking any strong position one way or another is bound to draw criticism from one group or the other. If you can't handle the criticism, don't make heavily slanted statements. That's just my take.