thecampster

Along with Charley Rosen, Sam Smith is the best bball writer in the business. He knows his stuff.

Did you see at the bottom of the article the blip about the Nets possibly woo'ing Pippen to coach. That is one guy with no coaching experience I would take a flier on. Regarded as having one of the best basketball IQ's of his time and a tenacious desire to win, Pippen would be a huge win.

Lets face it....there is no demand for Bibby or Marvin.

Josh may be the only player we can get something in return for.

It just makes sense, WE HAVE TWO POWER FORWARDS!!!

Trade Josh and get a star in return and move Al to power forward before he gets gray.

I wouldn't even mind Al at the #4 and Zaza at the #5 with a star PG or SF. People forget

Zaza is still improving and might get better if put back into the starting lineup. At least

he plays with heart and has size.

I know you don't like Josh very much but if you trade him away, he is the kind of player you regret losing for the next 10 years. This is a very bad idea. There are better options.

Why would they give away Noah (& his cheap rookie contract) when they can sign JJ out right ?

The only reason they give up Hinrich is b/c they don't want his contract and could use the salary dump to bring in a big to compliment Noah & Gibson.

You see, now this is an intelligent add to the discussion. Any time we trade in this situation is if the team that is signing JJ has something they do not need or are in too long of a contract with that player. They would never give you Noah because of his value against his salary but Hinrich would be a dump to them...

This is also why this whole thing is so difficult. If a team is far enough under the cap to sign JJ, they also then don't have many players under contract so what they have is very few chips to give away.

This is why JJ was a better trade 1 year ago when he was expiring. You had more options and could have retained the salary hold and gotten back Chillz.

You cannot trade Childress' "rights."

I know that, I just mispoke. But you can sign and trade Chillz. It was a lot of typing...don't focus in on the mistake and instead focus on the context of the article.

No. Right of first refusal refers to restricted free agency, which this is not.

What you are referring to is a no-trade clause. You can get a no-trade clause if you have been in the league for 8 years and with the same team for at least 4. Joe would qualify for this. But just because he qualifies doesn't mean he gets a no-trade clause. The Hawks would have to explicitly write into his contract that he would receive a no-trade clause. If we resign Joe, that alone does not guarantee that Joe could veto any trade.

Joe holds all the cards here. It will be there because it would be there for anyone else that would sign him.

http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/2010-teams-with-cap-space-2/

Ok, here is the next article. To put all this "Trade Joe Johnson" craziness to rest. This is a list of the teams that currently have cap space. Only a team that has space can sign him for what they have available or he can sign and trade but only to a team with equal value.

So you see, straight sign, his only current options are :

New York – $20.2-to-$23.4 million in cap space

New Jersey – $20.35-to-$25.5 million in cap space

Miami – $18.4-to-$21.9 million in cap space (note, this is DWade's space).

Chicago – $9.2-to-$17.9 million in cap space

Wade is staying in Miami so just rule them out. If JJ goes elsewhere, it's to either New York, New Jersey or Chicago. yes there are other possibilities but no team in the next tier is bending over backwards to get JJ...no one. Of those teams, JJ will get none of them over the top and they could only sign JJ if they completed a sign and trade with the Hawks to make up the difference...meaning they'd have to make their rosters weaker to sign him.

Now here's the reality. There are 3 free agents on the market that everyone wants. Bosh, Lebron, JJ. Those 3 (DWADE is going back to Miami...bank on it). So Either New York or New Jersey gets Lebron....the other will offer JJ. Whomever offers for either will try to do a sign and trade to free up enough room to add Bosh too. With Approximately 23 million in Space and signing either player to a max deal, you would need to trade away approximately 12 million dollars in salary to be able to sign Bosh too. If for some reason New Jersey bails, look at Chicago to drop in and pick up the pieces....I highly doubt it but it could happen.

If it's the Nets, the only salary they could trade to get them there is Devin Harris and that leaves them without a point.

If it's the Knicks, they would need to trade back either Eddy Curry or both Jeffries and Gallinari. Both Curry and Jeffries are expiring contracts next year and can therefore be moved to a team wanting to clear space for Carmelo in 2011.

So in a real world scenario, what you are looking at Hawks fans is something like Atlanta Signing and trading Joe Johnson for Eddy Curry and then New York siging Bosh to go with him. Then the Hawks can bring back Chilldress to take Johnson's spot while using/holding on to Curry till the trading deadline in 2011 to move for a good player that is under a long contract to a team that is clearing cap space to make a run at Carmelo.

http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/12/13/2010-cap-space-atlanta/

Here's the deal in short. this year is the JJ year. We won't be able to sign anyone else with the JJ money. It's resign JJ or pray for a sign and trade.

Next year is the Horford year. Crawford walks or is resigned, Either way....money is tied up next year too unless Bibby is traded away to give someone else an expiring contract.

This year is Bibby's year to go.

This year is Josh's year.

This year is Marvin's year.

There you go Hawks fans. Money is tied up every year from here on out. We can't get out of contract situations due to long term deals given to Crawford, Bibby, Johnson, Childress. Johnson, Bibby, Crawford, Childress (all three main guards and the one that should be here) represent approximately 43 million against the cap and without trading Childress away, that won't get better any time soon.

For everyone stating we should resign Joe, the best option is a sign and trade of Joe for something of value from New York, Chicago or wherever else Joe will play. Then packaging Bibby and the rights to Childress plus a draft pick for a useful player on a bad contract (Okafor comes to mind). This will get us back real depth and team players. Our biggest bargaining chip right now is Childress and a draft pick for whomever loses the free agency sweepstakes this off season.

Resigning Joe as you can see by this article would hamstring the franchise financially for years to come.

I just can't see him going out like that. We may still lose, but dude will show up, whether it's for the money or one possibly last good showing in front of the home crowd, JJ will drop buckets, believe dat. He won't go out like a bia%ch.

ps For those of you wanting to sign and trade JJ I gotta say the scenarios of what we would get back are just sickening. Sign JJ to the deal we offered last summer and GET A NEW COACH. Give this squad one more year with a competent coach, please don't go back to rebuilding. I took about 10 years of that, I just can't handle anymore. I love winning and I'm starting to get used to not looking forward to the draft lottery year in year out. I don't wanna do that anymore. Please keep the team intact with a new coach. Don't fault JJ for iso's...it's not his fault Woody makes him go one on one. :help wanted3:

If JJ drops 30 he'll take 32 shots to do it. That's been his M.O. for his career. For the playoffs this year he has taken 184 shots to make 183 points. He's also has 23 turnovers. That means 207 possessions ended with Joe for 183 points. Not sure with his efficiency I want him scoring 30.

First.. on the monday after we exit the playoffs, Announce that the new Hawks coach will be Lenny "my main man" Wilkens (former Hawk). Do you believe that it's possible that Sund and Wilkens are friends? Wilkens will coach for 1 year with Sam Mitchell as his understudy waiting to take over. Wilkens will only coach to bring excitement to the most wins and to teach these players some BBIQ and get the most out of them.

If not Wilkens/Mitchell... then maybe just Avery Johnson. But hold that Wilkens Mitchell thought first in your mind.

2nd... Draft day... BPA.

Accept Mo Evans Opt out. (let's face it, Mo would be a fool not to opt out now...Too much money available this year and not enough next year.)

Resign Joe Johnson for 6 years.... 83 million Frontloaded in the first year.

Sign Steve Blake to a MLE contract (5 years 35 Million).

Sign Johan Petro to the Vet Min.

Listen to deals for Josh Childress, Bibby, and Marvin.

If no good deals for Chillz comes, go over the cap and sign him.

Our team:

Blake/Teague/Bibby

Johnson/Crawford

Chillz/Marvin

Smoove/Zaza

Horf/Petro/

The draft pick will either be a PF or Sf. (BPA).

Lenny will make this team a winner with a motion offense and a strong defense.

He will teach Josh and Horf how to work in the post.

He will let Blake run the show.

Blake will be almost a double double guy... and he's about 40% from 3.

Chillz will be back in the NBA this year. With the financial turmoil in Greece right now, JC will do the smart thing and take the sure money to come home.

You think Bibby would be cool with Steve Blake taking his starting postion? I say we sign Joe and trade him & Bibby for Chris Paul & Morris Peterson. I don't know how healthy Paul would be & we would still need a big man, but he and Smoove would help sell out the Phillips on a regular basis. Mo Pete would essentially be replacing the ppg that Bibby was producing.

No...Bibby has to go. Bibby has 2 years left on his deal. He will be shipped out for a player with 4 years ish left in a package deal to give someone else cap relief for the 2012 season. Probably trade deadline of the upcoming season.

offense wins games.

If you have the strongest offensive team, you will eventually crack the defense. Dwight Howard can overpower any of our defenders. It doesn't matter how good a defensive scheme we put up, when Orlando's offense is hitting on all cylinders, they will blow any team out of the water.

The hawks failing is not defense. It's offensive as well. We can't score. I don't care how good your defense is.. if you're putting up 7 and 8 points in a quarter, you will lose.

How we have failed is that we have paid no attention to offense and have believed that if we play Randall Cunningham, plays in the dirt, Iso ball that the defense will prevail... That didn't win for the Eagle either.

As we go forward, we need a coach who knows something about Xs and Os on the offensive side of the ball.

In yrs past, I have told you guys we needed Alvin Gentry and Del Harris and Paul Westhead only to hear about defense.

Well, as I look now. Alvin's team may be headed to the WCF.

We have Woody.. a defensive technician and we wonder why every play is Iso Joe and why the defense is keying off of it.

Great post...missed maybe the most valid point. Efficient offense leads to less fast break opportunities for the other team. After you score a basket you get a couple of extra seconds to get back into your defensive sets while the other team takes the ball out. Efficient offense means less easy baskets for the opposition. The best defense is a good offense. Additionally, good offense puts pressure on the other team to score and keep up. Pressure leads to mistakes and missed shots.

First, and I hate to say this but....

I honestly think this team is going to take a necessary step backwards next season as this team, in its current form with its current "Coach", have plateaued.

We need to look at next season as an all-out, balls to the wall sprint towards bringing a marquee name player in the summer of 2011; that player's name is Carmelo Anthony.

I like the idea of moving Joe Johnson in the offseason, should we be able to complete an S&T deal that nets us value (TPE) or draft picks; like say New Orleans for Collison (and probably Okafor's contract)...

I'd love to use our MLE and go after John Salmons; I'd also love for our GM to put a call into the Clippers to see if Bibby/Marvin + our 1st would be enough to get Chris Kaman.

Should we be able to make those moves our starting 5 would look like this:

PG - Darren Collison

* Here's your chance to shine on "Your" team; not simply a CP3 fill-in stop-gap

SG - John Salmons/Jamal Crawford

* they're basically clones of each other so whomever was a better fit would be the starter and the other would be a 6th Man

SF - Josh Smith

* He needs to grow up but a REAL coach (one he might actually respect) could turn Josh into a perennial All-Star

PF - Al "The Boss" Horford

* Al could be a beast in this role; all of you who say differently are foolish

C - Chris Kaman

* True 7' BIG that is a career 17/9 player; he'd be that Center we've clamored for since Dikembe'

Your bench would be a little thin but as comprised on "my" team you'd still have either Salmons/Crawford, Teague, Zaza, and whatever filler they bring in... That's 8-9 deep versus the 3-4 deep we currently go... Then you go all out in the summer of 2011 to get 'Melo, possibly using Josh Smith as S&T Trade bait to see that it gets done...

Thoughts?

My thought is you don't understand the situation with Joe. We can not just trade Joe Johnson. We have to find a team through Joe's agent and the team that Joe wants to sign with in the end and try to work out a sign and trade. Joe is free to sign with whom he wishes and we can not trade him. But we can sign and trade if it is advantageous to the team Joe chooses. That team will not be New Orleans. There are only a couple of teams Joe is legitimately looking at and those will be teams with a shot to win it all. Joe has no interest in rebuilding. He wants one big contract but he wants to play for a winner as the second option.

In order to clear up enough room to sign Carmelo, you would need to drop Joe Johnson and then lose about 17 million more in salary but still maintain the 12 man roster minimum. That would for all intensive purposes mean Josh Smith being traded away for nothing, Al Horford signing for the same he makes now (LOL ...sorry...had to laugh at myself there) and dropping bibby and or most of Marvin. Now you tell me how we entice Carmelo to come here without a legit center and by selling or dropping 3 of our current 5 starters for expiring contracts to get him.

I say we keep Joe at less than the max with a 6 year deal. That's always tradable.

It makes no sense to trade Joe unless he wants to go.

If he wants to go to NY, I want Gallanari and Gallanari alone.

If he wants to go to Chicago, I want Noah.

If he wants to go to New Orleans, I want CP3.

IF he wants to go to Dallas, I want that french PG..

If he wants to go to Houston, I want Lowry and some picks.

If he wants to go to LAL, I want Pau.

If he wants to go to PTL, I would try out Oden (Mr. Glass).

If he wants to go to Miami, I hate Miami's whole team... so I would want draft picks.

If he wants to go to NJ, I want Harris.

If he wants to go to Boston, I want Rondo Or Perk.

Resigning Joe is a non starter. If you resign Joe he gets the right of first refusal in future trades. You can't just ship him to Golden State. He can veto any trade if we resign him.

Miami for draft picks is out of the question. We wouldn't have room to sign the picks without a roster bump.

Unfortunately, he wouldn't want to go to New Orleans....JJ for CP3 is the best option you listed.

The problem with this is we can't send him somewhere. He has to choose to go somewhere and they have to want him. That makes the list of suitors very small. It requires a team that doesn't need an inside presence. A team that is set at the PF/C position. New Jersey would be a great fit for Joe, but word is that LeBron is going there.

I would really rather just let JJ go or trade him to a team with cap space (so we don't have to take a ton of salary back) because if we resign him, than we are just locking ourselves into mediocrity. JJ needs to go, it's obvious that we aren't going to win a championship with this current makeup.

Can't do that...you see if you let him walk, you can't sign a new player without a cap hit. But if you trade him, you can take back his salary. Letting him walk, limit's the number and quality of player we can get. Better to trade him for 3 nobody's to fill roster space and give us trading chips.

Another incentive as i've previously mentioned to the team acquiring Joe to trade us back something in return is cap space for that team. If Team A has 20 million in Cap space, they can sign Joe for 16 mil per and eat up most of it. Or they can do a sign and trade sending us a 10 mil and 5 mil player and give Joe 16 mil. Net result, they get Joe and now have 21 mil....although there are extenuating circumstances to consider. Then the recieving team now as 21 million to spend. They then give a Bosh styled player 17 mil, and still have 4 million to sign a reserve. The net result for that team is they get 2 top tier talents. The benefit to us is being able to take back talent for his salary that may better fit our needs.

MrH is right here. JJ is gone and I say good riddance. The question is just do we get a player back or not.

Do not discount a 3 way trade either. We trade JJ to destination A which is where he would want to sign. We get a player from B where he doesn't want to sign and that player we get doesn't want to be and we would want. A gives to B the talent JJ replaces and gets the kicker.

:cant believe: You can't really believe this can you?

I believe Joe Johnson has become a problem for the Hawks and as much as his arrival helped, his continued presence has hurt. It has hurt other players development and has handicapped his coach into thinking iso Joe is an offense. A new coach will instill an offense that will utilize these players' talents. If you've bought into the hype that Marvin's play or Smith's long distance shooting is solely the player's faults than you aren't thinking about this as a player.

If you were a player on the hawks. A very young player on the hawks. Would you want to watch 50% of your possessions go in the hands of ISO-Joe or would you want to at least touch the ball, set a meaningful pick (you know, like one where you get to roll) or even be trusted to guard your man one on one instead of constantly having to switch? Would you want to walk onto the court every night knowing you are playing 4 on 5 when on defense. JJ and Bibby kill us nightly. The Magic are just great at exploiting another team's weakness.

Here we go. Last 6 games. The average stats for our top 6 players in the rotation.

Player-------ppg-----FG%------RPG-----APG----SPG----BPG-----T/O

AL-----------15.83--51.35------10.83----2.5------.5-------1.67-----1.33

Josh--------13.17--44.4--------7.67-----1.83----1.17-----1.67----1.67

Marvin------9.17---40.4--------6.33-----.67-------.33-----.5-------.17

Bibby-------6.17-----40.0-------2.5-------1.83----.67------0.00-----.5

Crawford--17.83--36.6--------3.17-----2.83-----.67-----0.0------2.17

JJ------------13.3----31.25------4.67-----4.33----.5--------.17------2.5

Conclusion: This list is organized by FG%. I believe stats always bear things out. This was crunch time. This is when their team needed them most. Only Al shot over 50%. Only Al grabbed 10 RPG. Playoff basketball is all about efficiency. Shoot a high percentage, Don't turnover the ball, Rebound the ball.

JJ should be f'ing embarrassed. Bibby is done.

If we take care of business at home, we just need to steal 1 of 4 on the road. Let's see what we do these next two games before condemning this team too much further. Back against Boston things looked really bleak heading into game 3 as well. Given Woody's track record on the road, Game 2 might even represent some real progress.

OK, admittedly this is taking the best possible view but it will be truly time for condemnation after we play in Atlanta. On the road against the Magic, a loss stinks but is not only understandable...it is expected.

+1

Josh smith turned the ball over (6X's) at key times tonight. He still doesn't understand that he should never dribble up the floor EVER!!! The biotin line is that I understand that atheletes get lazy at times but this is the f-ing playoffs. You should do nothing but hustle for 48 minutes!!!!! It's down right pathetic and completely inexcusable. He did the same thing at times in the Milwaukee series!!!! Josh has done a lot of good things this year and we have all given the credit that was due!! I dont think Josh will ever get it but I hope he does. I guess I will s*** in one hand and wish in the other and see which one fills up first. I think I know which one will, and so does the rest of this board!!!

OY...just OY. First of all, the official stats show 5 turnovers for Josh not 6. So there goes your credibility. Secondly, the failure of this team is what it has been. You 2 guards went a combined 11 for 32. That's 34.4%. And yet they took almost 50% of the team shots. This game would have been a blow out except we shot 30 of 31 from the free throw line.

Maybe you didn't watch the same game I did. But I kept seeing 2 guards with cart blanche to drive and take off balance jumpers time and again. That is not winning playoff basketball.

Lastly, Dwight Howard shot 18 free throws tonight. The refs played a monster part in this game tonight. First quarter, even ESPN announcers were calling BS on Howard running over Collins both times and it being a defensive foul both times.

There is plenty of blame to go around. The Magic scored 112 points. Roll that around in your noodle for a while. How does any team score 112 points in a playoff game? Is that the work of 1 player? 4 Orlando starters scored 20 points or more. Meanwhile Mike Bibby scored 3 points in 13 minutes. Bibby couldn't guard a doughnut at an anorexia convention and it showed tonight. Your trade Josh Smith threads show you have no appreciation for a player that was probably the most valuable person on this team this year. The difference between 3rd seed and out of the playoffs was 12 games this year and Josh Smith could easily be attributed as the soul reason we won 12. Take away Josh or Jamal and this team doesn't even make the playoffs.

This loss is squarely on the shoulders of Mike Woodson for not developing Teague, Acie or anyone else that could come in and guard Jameer Nelson. Young, quick point guards have killed us all year and during the playoffs.

112 points is unacceptable.

Exactly, who care if you get your shot blocked. The refs might see it as a foul or goaltend.

Just looking at what Gerald Wallace was able to do getting Dwight in trouble. There is a difference between getting you shot blocked when you pull up at 8 feet and he jumps out and gets a piece and when you go strong to the hole and he blocks it off the backboard. Yes he'll get those but the floor gets bigger for dish, drive, kick out, rotation when you first drive to the front of the rim.

To make an Omelot you have to break a few eggs. That means you need to miss a few shots and you need to get a few blocked.

If the Hawks want any chance of winning game 2 they need to relentlessly drive the ball to the hole off of pick and roll ala the Utah Jazz of the 90's. Bibby and JJ at the top....Horford and Josh setting the picks...Marvin spotting up in the corner. Run pick and roll relentlessly and challenge Dwight Howard on every trip down until he gets 2 fouls. This has to be the 1st quarter plan in game 2. Pick and roll to the basket is the best way not let Dwight get his feet set for the leap.

Will you miss a few shots? YEP...Will Howard block a few shots? YEP. But what I saw in the first 21 minutes of that game last night was nothing more than a mind game. Howard convinced the Hawks they couldn't drive on him. They have to or this series is over. Joe and Horf, Bibby and Josh....run at Howard every play no matter the outcome. Make the defense collapse to help him down low or you'll never get a clean look.

Defensively. Same basic approach, dare them to drive to the basket. Man on the wings, 2 deep on the blocks on either side. Get right up in the guards faces and dare them to drive. Make Orlando put the ball on the floor. When they are allowed to isolate and pass, dumping it in down low...they are dangerous. Do not let the guards help on Dwight...Josh and Al need to help each other and no one else. Give him his points...do not let him pass. Let Howard break some eggs by scoring over you but by no means let him dictate by getting you in foul trouble or by drawing you in to set up the 3.

lol my favorite part about the whole thing is that he doesnt want anyone complaining about the refs. He is an idiot. My friends uncle is an alternate for the playoffs and I already KNOW the fouls he is tolded to call. He sat us down one day and slowly explained what happens. *sigh*

Blocking foul on Collins in the first quarter for his 2nd foul where dwight lowered the shoulder and just ran collins over. Nuff said.

82games.com tracks shot clock usage

43% of Smoove's shots come within the first 10 seconds of the shot clock ( mostly transition baskets )

16% of his shots come in the last 3 seconds of the shot clock

Hmmm...so roughly 1 in 6.25 of his shots come in the last 3 seconds. he shoots a little less than 12 a game so about twice a game he's shooting with less than 3 seconds on the shot clock.

Shot clock usage

Secs. ____Att. ______eFG% Ast'd Blk'd Pts

0-10_____43%______.616 57% 5% 6.6

11-15____21% _____.478 68% 7% 2.5

16-20____20% _____.420 61% 8% 2.1

21+ _____16% _____.342 78% 6% 1.3

Crunch __36% _____.385 67% 7% 3.4

Josh shot 12.3 times a game this season. 36% of the time (4 times a game) he shot the ball with 8 seconds or less left on the shot clock.

Ok, I think this is very telling. A third of your power forward's possessions are with time running out in the shot clock. During those times he's shooting 38.5% from the field. The rest of the time he's shooting about 56.5%.

Translation, guards are holding the ball way too long in iso.

If he is not set to post then why would he do it? If he isnt posting then what else is he gonna do? He cant just stand in the paint and be guarded by proximity.

You have to have something to do in the offense or you will end up standing around, period. Im implying that the offense doesnt call for him to do anything, so thats why he is wandering around.

In Iso, it's important for the Power Forward and Center to move out so there is an open lane to drive. Then "1" of them is to crash the lane on the drive/pull up. If it's not there they kick the ball back out.

Often times in our offensive sets, JJ holds the ball too long and on the kick out, there isn't time left to do anthing except shoot from outside. I'd love to see a graphic of how many jumpers Josh shot during the year with 5 or less seconds on the clock.

As any NBA fan knows...you just don't wake up and make the NBA finals. Even Jordan waited till his 7th season to win a title and required Pippen, Grant and maturation to get there. Tonight, I think the Hawks learned a lesson, a big lesson. It's not enough to be athletic. It's not enough to game plan. It's not enough to be better. Lebron's Cavs were better last year and got eliminated. The lesson is that winners impose their will on others. That's what most championship seasons are...one team imposing it's will upon the competition no matter who is playing. You have to bring the nasty. You have to bring the will to tell someone else to sit down and shut up.

Tonight, the Hawks said "NO!!!"

I am one of the biggest JJ bashers on the board but tonight he earned my respect and he did it on one play in the first quarter. While guarding Salmons one on one, he refused the switch and stuck with Salmons during a dribble/attempt to penetrate clinic. He stayed in front for a good 10 seconds and finally when he goated Salmons into the air, he got a hand on the Salmons pass into the post. JJ refused to let John Salmons get to the middle of the lane on that play. He imposed his defensive will on the play. God help the league if the Hawks have finally figured out the hardest lesson in basketball. you don't have to win by 100..you just have to win by 1. The Bucks weren't just beaten on the court tonight...they were demoralized. They were held to 69 points on their home court on what should have been elimination night. The Hawks imposed their will tonight.

Cheapest tickets I found were $20 behind the west basket.