thecampster

Ditto. I've been imaging senarios that bring us a dominant PG and another starting caliber C. A JJ S&T and moving Bibby might take this team to the top.

As an example of what could be done. Washington is a player in the free agent market and needs to be rid of the gilbert Arenas fiasco. They could offer JJ the max and trade us Al thornton and Arenas for JJ in a sign and trade to even the salaries. That fixes the point guard issue. Then you can off Chillz to come back and drop Jason Collins (thornton takes his spot) and boom you have your team.

Arenas/Teague/Bibby

Chillz/Crawford/Mo Evans

Marvin/Thornton

Josh/Joe Smith

Horford/Pachulia/Morris

Draft a big in training and there you go. No missing JJ.

What people fail to realize in the JJ leaving talk is he isn't just going to walk in free agency. It is far better for a team that is under the cap to do a sign and trade to acquire a player than to just acquire the player. If Chicago, New York or any other possible destination for JJ wants to do their best in the off season it is in their best interest to tender JJ a contract and then work out a sign and trade with the Hawks. This gives the Hawks players in return without penalizing us (we can take back JJ's salary in players but not in signing FA's). This in turn allows the team that wants to sign JJ to still have that available cap money to go after another free agent (see how the celtics were built a few years ago).

We will not be losing JJ for nothing. It is in Johnson's best interest to allow this as it means better players at his coming destination. Johnson is leaving..get used to that. But we will get something in return, do not worry about that. So what you now need to ask yourself is what do teams like Chicago, New York and the other FA players have that we would like to take back but they don't need. Remember that the deal doesn't have to only be JJ. Bibby, Marvin or other players could leave to even out the deal. Roll that around in your noodles a while.

K, I'm in.

and you know I'm in trouble because I only have 3 10's, 2 11's and 1 12 getting through in the first round. You know I'm wrong there.

And you don't think there are any games where the refs were in the Hawks favor or the other coach messed up?

I just pulled the 5 most obvious examples

What if number one. Hawks at Lakers Nov. 1st. Hawks won 43 minutes of this game. A 5 minute mental lapse in the 3rd quarter cost them this game.

What if number two. Knicks @ Hawks Dec 4th. Josh Smith ejected in the 2nd quarter changing the whole makeup of the game and handing the knicks a 7 point win.

What if number three. Hawks at Cleveland Dec 30. Hawks absolutely screwed by the non reset of the shot clock and it costs them the game. NBA in the bag for Lebron.

What if number four. Hawks at Golden State Feb 21. A bogus technical foul call on Jamal Crawford with seconds left in the game flips the game to the warriors.

What if number five. Dallas at Hawks Feb 26. Jason Kidd makes contact with Mike Woodson as he jumps into the coaches box. Replay clearly shows Woodson's feet make it to the coaching box as the contact is initiated. Kidd should have been ruled out of bounds.

An argument can be made that Atlanta could have or should have won each of these 5 games. 4 were screw jobs by the officials and 1 was just terrible coaching by Woodson letting LA score 17 points in 3 minutes without a time out. If these games go the way they are supposed to, the Hawks record would currently be 47-18, and in second place. The Cavaliers would be 51-16 only 3 games ahead with 2 head to head matchups left and we'd have something very interesting to talk about.

They don't get time because they can't shoot. Woodson loves guards that can shoot because his offense has to be bailed out constantly.

We run so much Iso that teams have to help, creating open shots specifically for the SF and PG spots.

If we shared the ball more it wouldn't be such a big issue.

Which is the exact reason a point that can penetrate and dish is exactly what we need.

I can't except stupid as an answer because self preservation outweighs stupidity in even the dumbest animal. He can plainly see these guys are costing the team games. This in turn can cost him his job, or money. He plays Joe, Horf, and Smoove to death for this exact reason. Why doesn't it happen with fixing this problem?

It's a matter of perspective. We are watching the game on tv. Seeing all 5 people moving on the floor at once. I can almost guarantee you he's watching the game with blinders. He's watching to see if we switch instead of seeing if the individual player needed to switch in the first place. He's looking at people, situations and not the whole floor. When we watch on tv, our perspective is much different. We can see how all 5 players are interacting, affecting each other.

Woody is also seeing the floor through the eyes of his practice sessions. He works on something in practice and he's looking to see if it's implemented properly in the game. We aren't distracted by that and instead we are just looking at basketball. When seen through the filter of just plain basketball, it's easy to see the absolute havoc Teague causes at both ends of the floor. Even if he isn't performing as a spot up shooter, his other talents bring much more to the table.

So consider this post my own personal letter to Woodson.

When Teague is in the game on the offensive end, the defense collapses to the paint. They fear this kid driving the lane. The defense works much harder and runs out their legs trying to get back as Teague pushes the ball up the floor. The big men play with their hands up as they know the kid is taking it to the lane and they know a pass or short rebound opportunity is only seconds away.

When Teague is in the game on defense, opposing points do not drive. They move left to right to run him into a screen as he stays in front of his man. Opposing points rush to their spots and drives because they know he has recovery speed and this creates block and steal opportunities for the bigs.

When Mario is in the game, his man can not leave him to double...Mario only needs a step to get to the rim. he is not a polished offensive threat but he is a high flyer and requires a body. On defense, he opens up rebound opportunities because he requires a big to step out and set the screen.

These things are invaluable toward controlling the tempo of a game Mr. Woodson. Stop watching tape or the game through the practice filter and start watching it through the basketball filter.

This would be a joke if we did this, you should only do this for Joe as for now.

I am getting so SICK of the unfounded Joe love on this board. The Hawks have played 61 ball games this year. Joe Johnson has shot under 40% 16 times. That means he's a failure for his team 26.2 % of the time. An MVP isn't an absolute failure 26% of the time. Joe is a better than average volume scorer who holds the ball way too much and plays an extraordinary amount of minutes.

Look at the remaining dates on Boston's schedule.

Charlotte

Milwaukee

Cleveland

Dallas

Utah

Denver

San Antonio

Oklahoma City

Cleveland

Toronto

Milwaukee

Chicago

Milwaukee

13 of their remaining 25 games are against teams currently in the playoffs... 5 more are against teams that could sneak in.

18 of their last 25 are against teams that at this point have something to play for.

Cleveland has 12. The Hawks have 11 remaining but their list is not as ominous. Orlando only has 9.

Seems Boston played the lighter schedule thus far. Seems like we're pretty much a lock for that 3 seed (all things being equal).

19.8 ppg

12.4 rpg

6.2 apg

2.0 spg

1.6 bpg

Out freaking standing.

Just for kicks....last 10 games

19.3 ppg

10.4 rpg

5.6 apg

2.5 spg

1.4 bpg

Them's crazy stats right there. What's our record look like in the last 10 without him?

Good thing JJ TOOK some tough shots because Atlanta probably would have lost had he not. You guys find ways to discredit JJ when in reality those are the type of shots he makes all the time.

JJ was 10-26....He took 13 more shots than Josh to score 2 more points. Before he hit those 3 in a row, JJ was 7 of 23....he's part of the reason the Bucks were close in the first place. Please remember he missed the last shot in the 4th that should have won the game. Before those 3 makes in a row, he was shooting 30.4% from the floor.

Just give credit where it's due. 22 points, 15 boards, 6 assists from your Power Forward. Your Center scored 17/10 while holding bogut to 14/9. JJ's 3 iso, score at all costs shots in OT should never have happened. your 3 main guards were 15 of 48 from the field for 42 points. People shooting a combined 31.25% from the field should not be taking 53.3% of your shots. The rest of the team was 24 of 42. That's who you should be thanking.

It's this summer that will catch the league's attention, not the remainder of this season.

If Ilgauskas takes a discount to return to Cleveland on a one-year deal (with the "one year" part being the most important), and then signs a bigger deal with them next year, it will most definitely catch the league's attention.

Not to mention the fact that Stern already wants to end this loophole.

The Hawks can offer almost $3 million more.

No they can't. They can offer a prorated 3 million more. 2/3rd of the season is now over. They can offer 1/3rd of 3 million more or about 1 million dollars more and they blow their MLE to do so.

Anyone who quotes a 6 ppg differential as the reason for MVP doesn't know squat about basketball.

Just because you can fill it up at the YMCA doesn't mean you play basketball. Joe is a menace to offensive flow at times. He forgets he has teammates much of the time. There is a difference between being a volumn scorer and an MVP. Don't get me wrong. Joe is a valuable part of these Hawks but he is no MVP.

Josh is the total package with a developing offensive game. I watched the first 3 quarters of the game last night. I can tell you he changed for worst at least 10 defensive possessions. In one drive, Sessions was leading a break with Josh as the lead defender. Even though it looked like Sessions had a clear path to the basket and a wing trailing, he peeled off to the corner at the free throw line rather than challenge Josh. Josh is a momentum beacon. That one play stopped Minny's momentum. Josh is a difference maker...Joe is not. When Josh plays well...the Hawks win...period.

No disrespect to Joe...but he is not the most valuable player to this team. Joe is 6ppg better than josh but takes more than 6 shots more a game. Josh wins in every other statistical category except assists which are almost dead even. Joe is Clyde Drexler lite....that's it.

Jack . .. now you're overreacting a little bit. Smoove is the same guy who had like 6 - 8 pts and 5 assists in that 3rd quarter alone. He played a damn good game until that 4th quarter. He just played horribly and didn't make good decisions in the 4th.

But villifying the dude for all of his negative traits, doesn't diminish the fact that the guy has had a pretty good season this year. Good enough for people to consider him as being an All-Star game snub.

He and that team simply relaxed and had a horrible quarter last night. If they pull off the win tonight, and heplays well, people will be back praising the guy again. He has a very tough challenge tonight in the form of Boozer and Milsap. Let's see how the dude responds tonight.

Said something similar in chat last night.

14 points, 17 rebounds, 7 assists, 2 steals and 2 blocks. 3 assists from a triple double...3rd in +/- last night. Leads the team in PER and you guys bash him every time he does something.

How many teams in the league would like a power forward that would have got them 14/17/7/2/2 last night?

Josh is not why you lost. Mike Bibby's inability to defend can be easily shown to be the cause of half of our losses this year. Time to let Teague learn on the job.

You know whats amazing about last nights game though? Teague has 4 assist and 3 pts in 12 mins. Bibby only 5 assists ad 3 pts in 30 mins .

I could live with the non productive play from Bibby. It's the defense that's killing us. Teague has shown a constant ability to get steals, fight to get back in position and keep his man in front. He's even been blocking shots. If we can't get offense from the point, then lets get stellar defense (see mookie blaylock).

I'll give you a brief run down. There are other guys on here that can get more in depth on this then me.

Even if the Hawks let JJ walk in free agency, they will still be over the salary cap and will have nothing but the MLE (mid-level exception) of around $5.2 mill to spend on FAs. Of course teams can alwayse sign players to the veterans minimum, like we did with Joe Smith and Jason Collins, without using the MLE.

Teams can only go over the salary cap to resign their own players. That is why we can offer $17 mill to JJ but not James, Bosh, or Wade. Only teams under the salary cap can offer contracts to other teams free agents. Teams with enough room under the salary cap to sign 1 or more max free agents include:

Knicks

Nets

Bulls

Heat

Clippers

T-Wolves

Kings

Wizards

Those are the teams that can sign JJ away from us, IF JJ chooses to leave us . I imagine the ASG ownership will allow Rick Sund to offer JJ just as much as any of these teams. Its just up to JJ where he wants to play.

The luxury tax limit is $69.9 mill...........the salary cap is some where around $54 mill. The Hawks team salary is right at $65 mill right now. Even if we renounce JJ we would have Chillz cap hold, cap holds for our draft picks, and cap holds for each empty roster spot. In other words.........even if JJ signs with another team and his $14.8 mill falls off the books, the Hawks still would not be under the salary cap. (Its not quite as simple as just doing ($65 mill - $14.8 mill ) to get next years salary number. Cap holds must also be figured for teams restricted free agents, players they hold rights to like Josh Childress, draft picks, and empty roster spots.

That is why GMs are paid the big bucks. Managing an NBA team is far more complicated then video game franchise modes make them out to be. Its not just about scouting basketball talent but also managing the salary cap and luxury tax.

Again.........I'm no expert on this stuff but that is a quick summary.

Let's tackle that thing with Chillz a second. Can we do a sign and trade with Chillz after the season to get back his cap hold for something useful? That's a wildcard for us I dont' think we're looking at.

There are a few things about this that would be epic for the Hawks.

First...you can start Z...move Horf to PF and Josh to SF. Because Z can step out and hit from the outside, it allows us to let Z handle the inside, out requirements of a SF.

Second, Marvin goes to the bench and the bench scoring greatly improves. Marvin is not fighting for touches and is freelancing against inferior talent.

Third - We get someone who can guard Dwight Howard. No one can guard Howard one on one really but Z's length takes away the hooks and posts moves greatly limiting him.

Fourth - Z and Horf's ability to both step away and hit the jumper opens up the lane for people driving to the basket.

We have a MLE available which means we can offer as much as anyone or more. Also remember there will be a few more players bought out (like Gooden). We can split the MLE as we have 2 roster spots available.

The Spurs, not the Lakers, are, imo, the gold standard for the NBA. They are always one of the best teams in the league, regardless of record (and their record in the last 11-12 years has never been "bad"). I'm guessing who said that was Hotlanta.

The Spurs are 30-21 currently 5th in the west. Silly to call them not a good team.

For those of you whoose argument is about being emotional leader....

Have you ever read Phil Jackson's book Sacred Hoops?

In his book he uncovered a lot of his coaching techniques but more importantly, he opens up the world of the Chicago Bulls.

When you think about those Bulls, most people consider Jordan to have been the leader of that team. According to Phil, that's far from the truth. While Jordan was the fist pumper, the big time scorer, the allstar among allstars, the guy always in front of a microphone the leader of that team was the laid back Scottie Pippen. In fact, Phil Credits Pippen with keeping things together. MJ had a lot of needs.... and Scottie was the right guy to handle the floor and the lockerroom.

I see a lot of the same thing with us... Josh is the emotion guy, but his game is definitely improved by playing next to Joe. He would still be a shot blocker, rebounder, etc... but offensively, Joe takes the pressure off of most of our guys.

Ok...amazing...non critical statement coming. I see it exactly opposite. I see Josh as the guy that keeps us from falling apart most nights. I see teams making a run...getting back into the game or putting us away and then BAM...layup blocked out of nowhere...run the floor...boom...slam it down. Crowd either goes quiet when away or leaps up at home and the game changes. Rarely do I see Joe ignite a spurt...he's just going about the business of getting his points most nights. I can't tell you how many of his assists come on getting bottled up...passing out of the situation he dribbled himself into and someone hits a jumper with 2 seconds left to bail him out.

Just a matter of perspective. I find it interesting how 2 people can watch the same game and come away seeing it differently.

Those game changing plays though is how I saw Pippen. His lock down defense, knack for steals and electrifying plays are what swung the game....Jordan scored alot and was good in most areas. Pippen excelled all around.

You post everything . . . except his shooting percentage. I wonder why?

If anybody wants to know why the kid doesn't play a lot, all they have to do is pull up the HAWKS - 2009 - 10 SEASON - JEFF TEAGUE . . . . . on this website:

http://www.nba.com/hotspots

LOL - it wasn't purposely omitted. I was dealing strictly with per48. Besides. he's a point guard. I'm really not wanting him to shoot (see that my name is not Woodson). Point guard....distribute, get them into the offense, don't turn it over.

I miss Pudding Pops.

Sometimes I read things like this thread and I shake my head. I've personally seen Teague block from behind like 3 shots at the rim this year.

So to make you feel silly, here are Jeff Teague's per 48 minute stats from this year.

Points - 15.0

Assists - 8.8 (would lead the team)

rebounds - 4.7

Steals - 2.69 (would lead the team)

Blocks - .94

Turnovers - 3.5

Assist to turnover ratio 2.5 (a full 1.23 better than Bibby).

I think I need an aspirin and a Jello Pudding cup.

Really? So your argument is that you can't be team MVP if you don't show emotion and you use Tim Duncan, one of the most emotionless players in the NBA,

sitting on the bench

talking,

yes talking, not yelling

to the point his team has to lean in just to hear him.

Therefore you are right, Joe Johnson, team captain and 4 time allstar cannot possibly be the MVP of his team or command respect from them because apparently Tim Duncan waving his hands shows more of the prerequisite emotion to be a leader than anything Joe has ever shown.

Go somewhere else with you blatant garbage.

Problem with this statement is the stats aren't backing up your arguement. Joe is outscoring Josh based on Volumn Shooting....everything else is hard to equate. your shooting guard shouldn't only have .7 more assists a game than your power forward. Joe is only scoring 6 more points a game and is getting it handed to him in pretty much every category.

Josh wins stats:

Rebounds - +186

Steals - +19

Blocks - +104

Shots Taken - (-342)

Joe wins stats:

Assists - +37

Points - +332

Turnovers - (-5)

Joe outscored Josh by 332 but took 342 more shots to do it and got to the FT line 89 less times.

Is Joe more valuable than Josh?

JJ leaving...the simple version.

Joe Johnson's ability to make the most money happens in a sign and trade.

Any team wanting Joe Johnson will be sending the Hawks value back. The Hawks are in the driver seat here and will be taking back only players that benefit them which is more young, running talent and or draft picks. Any contracts we don't take back, will be a net loss in what we can use in payroll and not pay a tax.

No team can sign JJ cold for more than us. Any team wanting him has to trade value for him. The JJ signing back in the day is the biggest coup for us ever as it gives us current bargaining power in the biggest free agent class in a very, very long time.

The same goes for Lebron, Bosh and Wade.

Those are the players dictating in free agency in the off season....not the buyers.

Ah...........you are correct sir !

An even bigger reason to fight the Magic for the 2nd seed, A 2nd round matchup vs. the Raptors would be ideal.

Again..check my remaining strength of schedule.

Boston and Orlando have their harder west coast / texas schedules left. We've played the toughest schedule and although we play 3 more on the road, our strength of schedule left is much better. Side note...Toronto's is just barely worse than ours. But they are a full 5 games behind us. The Hawks have played 49 games, the Raptors 51. That means to tie the Raptors the Hawks would have to lose 6 more games than the Raptors the rest of the way. Assuming the Hawks finish on their current pace and win 53 games (21-12 the rest of the way). That means the Raptors have to finish 25 and 6 the rest of the way. I don't think so.