thecampster

LOL you are so full of it. Without Josh's play in the first 18 minutes we lose this game. Got to agree the 3 pointers didn't look good but please get some credibility. 4 blocked shots for the game. His hustle in the first 18 minutes led the Hawks to their lead. Hawks plus/minus for the game organized by first to last. Zaza Pachulia (+20)....huge ups for Zaza. Josh Smith (+20)..... Mo Evans (+16).... Mike Bibby (+11)... huge turnaround from the first 3 games Joe Johnson (+11) Flip Murray....(+5) Al Horford...(-8)...This is where your venom should be getting spewed. Mario West...(-10) This was in only 5 minutes Solomon Jones...(-15) This was in only 3 minutes.

LOL It's fixed guys. Can't you see that. We got like 6 fouls in 3 minutes because we were burying them. During that same stretch there was a lead pass down court that haslem caught and took 4 steps before turning and throwing it back. Can't let this series go less than 7. Can't let Wade be ousted in the first round. Can't let a fresh team face Lebron in the second round. Welcome to the NBA the Nobody Believe Anything league. That was a sad sorry 3 minutes of officiating and some of the best evidence yet of a game being fixed. Bibby had a bloody nose from getting decked by Wade and then got called for an illegal screen seconds later for basically standing back up.

you are tapping into something here that i don't think you want to go down that road. The board will fry you. So I'll do it. Bibby - 6 of 12 (4-8 from 3) for 18 points. Murray - 4 of 15 (1-5 from 3) for 15 points) Johnson - 5 of 13 ( 1 of 2 from 3) for 16 points Total - 15 of 40 ( 6 of 15 from 3) for 49 points. That's 37.5% shooting from our guards and 1.21 points per attempt. Horford - 5 of 9 for 11 points Smith - 8 of 14 (0-1 from 3) for 17 points Williams - 4 of 9 (0-3 from 3) for 11 points. Total - 17 of 32 for 39 points. That's a 53.1 shooting percentage and 1.22 points per attempt. So as you can see, the bigs are at least as effective scoring even with only 4 3's between them compared to 15 by the guards. But the benefit to playing close to the basket and not jacking up 3's is that a missed 3 is very often a long rebound and leads to a break by the other team. Also, the only person on the Hawks the other night with a positive +/- was Zaza. Just throwing that out there. This isn't a one game thing either. In game one: The 3 guards were 12 of 30 (40%) and scored 27 points. .9 per attempt the 3 bigs were 17 of 29 (58.6%) and scored 47 points 1.62 per attempt. When we let the bigs score we tend to win. When our guards...all 3 of them...get shot happy instead of moving the ball around and looking to go down low and wait for a kick out, we lose. This has been going on all year. For the year the 3 guards have averaged 17.8 of 40.7 (43.7%) 48.5 points a game or 1.19 per attempt The bigs have averaged 15.5 of 31.4 (49.4%). 41 ppg or 1.31 per attempt. Any offense where your point guard and shooting guard are 1 and 2 in attempts per game but are 8th and 9th in shooting percentage is not in good shape. Take out the scrubs and only use the rotation players, and only Mo Evans is shooting worse. JJ and Bibbs shoot the worst percentages of the starters but take the most shots.

That sir....Is Brilliant. Hawksquawk....Where Brilliance Happens.

Yeah what sucks is I work in the data center underground in a big building in Alpharetta. There is no getting 790 the zone down here or any other radio station. So if I can't get something online I might as well be in Siberia.

Yeah I'm stuck at work tonight and would love a radio/ stream link. Won't get home till midnight and don't wanna stay up till 2 to watch the dvr of it.

Game 1: Factually Incorrect. Josh Smith was out with his bum ankle. This game is a wipe on that alone. We lose a defensive matchup option with Josh out. Game 2: We won! Game 3: End of the 1st half and end of the game 2 phantom Lebron calls. We were handling them in this game and repeatedly the ref's jumped to lebron's aid. This was a streak ender game and obviously the NBA did not want it to end. This game should be called a win and you know it. Game 4: Hawks came out flat this game and were down 14 at the end of the 1st quarter. The rest of the game was competitive with the Hawks making it close in the end. 1 2 3 4 Total Atlanta 13 22 28 33 96 Final Cleveland 27 26 26 23 102 Fact is, the season series should have been 2-2 and a healthy Josh Smith in game 1 could have made it 3-1 in favor of Atlanta. I'm not saying this would be the case. I'm just saying you're casting this as the Cavs spanking our rears all year and that is not the case. Yes it was 1-3 for the season series but could easily have been 3-1. I think you're just putting too much weight into the last game. Most importantly, this team has gone through a ton this year and the team playing Miami on Sunday was not the team I saw all year. Many things have improved. Right now if I were a betting man I'd say the Cleveland series is a 6-4 cleveland favored to win.

LOL dude this cracked me up. Hot you are underappreciated around here. Way to keep it real.

You know what bugs me about you Diesel. It's how often I agree with you on most everything that doesn't have M.W. as it's initials. How can I agree with you so much on posts like this one and disagree so much on others.

Your numbers do lie. You are using rebounds per minute. Most subs numbers get skewed. LOL Solomon Jones???

So anyway Exodus, I know your logic seems to be making perfect sense to you here. I get that. I even understand what you are saying. I just realize you take everything I'm saying and are ignoring it as it doesn't fit your argument. Take a step back and look at the bevy of stats and evidence I've laid out and just think about it again. You can't really be serious when say he is a 5 feet from the basket player only. I just can't see you saying that.

I've decided to break down your arguments in this thread one by one. I think it will help. Amare has taken 73 3pointers in his career. He is a 19% shooter from the arc. He took 31 last year. Boozer is 1 of 9 from 3 in his career for 11%. Brand is 2 for 13 in his career for 15.4%. Sub 20% and all 3 are listed as F/C on Yahoo (meaning between Forward and Center). Reminding you Smith is listed as F (meaning between Small Forward and Forward). If you won't let other compare non-exact players, you can't do the same. Sorry bro but you don't sound like much of a JSMith fan to me here. 7.3 rebounds is good for 31st in the NBA among players with 60 games or more. 30% for a season is not a poor 3 point shooter. It is not good and not the number you are looking for but not poor either. 30% from 3 = 45% from 2. This is just an exaggeration and in some ways totally untrue. The first thing you need to admit here is that these sets are by design and not primarily Josh's doing but a product of Woody's ISO sets and having too many interchangable pieces. They are part of an offensive philosophy that all starts with Joe in long term create ISO which requires clearing out space in the lane for Joe to drive and pick up a foul. Josh can't play inside and run these sets. Iso's typically have a center weakside and one of the wings set to fill the lane if the iso decides to pass off during his drive. This leaves either the power forward or Small forward at the arc. One or the other. 2nd The defense can't ignore anyone on the court. If Josh is left unguarded, then I assume you are talking about a double team. If the player being doubled drives to the lane and passes out of the doubleteam, and the player guarding Josh doesn't find him again or chase ball it's an illegal D. He can't ignore him. Furthermore if he does ignore him then shame on the other 4 players for not clearing out the backside for a cut. Don't even try to tell me this never happens. We've all seen the alleyoop dunks. Easy question! His defender is the guy that's got JJ bottled up because he held the ball too long in ISO and wasn't looking to give it up when he drew the double. This was in relation to finding one power forward who shoots more 3's and worse than Smith. I offered Barkley. You said current as in present tense forward. I offered my list. You qualified it as back to your original post of having to be a power forward and having to shoot more and worse. All on the list shot worse. 3 shot more this year but all shot similar attempts or attempts per game. Of those, Gerald Wallace is listed by yahoo as 'F' just like Smith meaning he's played both positions this year just like Smith. But saying they have to be a PF like you claim Smith solely is cheapens your argument. When looking at this list, some of these players are combo 2/3's shooting closer to 2 times a game from 3 and shooting only 26-28%. That is the position that is more commonly a 3 threat. This makes Josh more impressive, not less. He is outshooting players who are by design supposed to do it. He is more effective and not less than players who are supposed to outperform him in this area.

LOL you are so full of it. Denial must be a lonely place. I suppose you can keep qualifying the question. Maybe next you'll say "in their 5th year in the league" or "and never went to college" or maybe even "Power Forward but undersized for the position and is playing the role of a tweener". You just lost all credibility on the subject bro. I don't care if it's a center, point guard or ball boy. They are NBA players, mostly all starters, all forwards (which is what Josh is. He is a tweener) all shooting a similar number of 3 pointers this year and all shooting for a lower percentage than Josh Smith. And arguing symantics and saying "present only players" is ridiculous. Let's look at facts. His stats show him to be at least the 2nd best player on a team going to the playoffs with homecourt advantage while only 23 years old. Can you give a brother a little slack?

Gerald Wallace , CHA 67 17.1 .6 1.9 37 127 .291 Devean George , DAL 43 3.4 .5 1.8 22 76 .289 Stephen Graham , IND 50 5.3 .3 1.3 17 63 .270 Donte Greene , SAC 51 3.9 .5 1.8 25 94 .266 Andrei Kirilenko , UTA 63 11.5 .3 1.1 17 67 .254 Corey Maggette , GSW 51 18.6 .5 1.9 24 95 .253 Al Thornton , LAC 71 16.8 .3 1.1 20 79 .253 Chris Bosh , TOR 73 22.7 .1 .6 10 41 .244 Shawn Marion , TOR-MIA 65 12.5 .1 .8 9 51 .176 I tried to keep the attempts for the season above 40 to keep it significant. Attempts are listed in bold. All the players listed here are qualified per NBA.com as a Forward, some flavor of forward and all are shooting a lower percentage than Josh Smith. Attempts per game is the 4th number. There are plenty more and some even more prominent that have attempted 25 or so. I'm sure now you'll say something smart like show me ones that are on teams leading their conference and have a 'v' in the nickname. Are you saying you don't want any of these players on your team?

This is a very on target post. Scorers need fresh legs and are designed to take over in the fourth. They score in bunches and bursts. Very right on.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/charles_barkley/index.html Arguably one of the best power forwards of all time. Regular season 538 of 2,020 from 3 for a 26.6% average. Playoffs 54 of 251 from 3 for a 25.5% average. All stat games 3 of 12 from 3 for a 25% average. Go ahead exodus. Argue something about this. 4 times in his career Sir Charles shot over 200 3 point attempts. Josh will probably not hoist 100 this year. In his best 2 seasons Barkley was 33.8% and 30.5% from 3 skewing his numbers up for the rest of his career. He never shot above 30% in any of his other 14 NBA seasons. Even more staggering is Barkley's career FG% of 54.1%. Why the hell would a guy shooting 54% from the field shoot 3's when he's shooting 26.6% from behind the arc? Even more interesting, even though he averaged over 120 3 point attempts a year (or 1.5 a game), he averaged 11.7 rebounds a game. In phoenix in 92-93 he averaged 3 attempts a game and still grabbed 12.2 rpg. Kind of blows that theory out of the water huh? It's ok though. You still didn't respond to the previous post that explained that even Karl Malone would brick 3's at a 27% rate and still took over 40 one year.

This thread is a freaking greek tragedy. a basketball court has basically 5 offensive players. 2 post, 2 wing and 1 point. The posts spend most of their time on either side of the basket. The point starts top of the key. The wings hang out at the 3 point line 90% of the time. However, many sets are run out of this basic configuration. Hawks starting five Horford Smith Williams JJ Bibby Question 1: Should Horford /Smith / Williams always be within 10 feet of the basket in each offensive set? If you answer yes, then we no longer get to run a pick and roll. EVER! You can not run a slash pick and roll with the middle clogged as it offers natural help. Question 2: Should Joe Johnson never post up? If you answer yes, then we never get to take advantage of mismatches against smaller SG (see Ben Gordon). Question 3: Is Marvin Williams a full time 3 that should be the player always on the wing? If you answer yes, then Marvin should never be posting up any of the Small Forwards he faces that are typically 6'8" or shorter. Question 4: Should we never, ever allow a player on this team to run an iso play? If you answered no, then you must then understand that you typically clear the post in ISO leaving only one player in the post. Who do you want, Josh, Marvin or Horford? The other 2 will be pushed to the wing. Question 5: Should we not run any motion? If you answered no, then you probably also understand that in any motion offense, everyone but typically the center rotates out to the wing at some point. Think about this. You are speaking in absolutes. As if we run down court and run the same motion 2 set each possession. All of these things happen as a part of our normal (all though sometimes pathetic) offensive sets. It is not Josh being a selfish all about me player. He's at the 3 point line as a part of the normal offense in most situations. If this was not the case then none of the situations mentioned above are going on and we'd have bigger problems. One last thought. Probably the best post up, pick and roll big man any of us has seen play is Karl Malone. For his career, Malone shot 85 or 310 from the 3 point line for 27.4%. Sound familiar? However, it was a non issue. Consider the 3 point shot from a power forward like the waste pitch in baseball. You are just giving the batter something to think about. Every once in a while he goes fishing and you get a strike out. But that isn't it's purpose. It's just the pitcher throwing something out there. This Josh Smith 1.3 shots a game is the same thing. They go in occasionally. not enough to shoot 6 a game but they do go in and when they do it's gravy but it makes the defense question it every once in a while. But it's a waste pitch. You throw one up and see what they do and then go back to your normal pitching rotation. Meanwhile they think about it.

Exodus, There is a number you quit ignoring. You can state 300+ 3's in 3 years and 300 sounds like a lot. I've eaten breakfast over 12000 times in my life and that sounds like a lot. But I eat breakfast less than 1 time a day. Does that mean I'm always hanging around the breakfast table looking for scraps. NO! For his career Josh has averaged 33 minutes a game and has averaged 1.3. 3 point attempts a game. He's shot 27 percent for his career which is the same as shooting 40.5% from 2 for his career. It's a non issue. 1.3 attempts per game for his career is a non issue. That's 4 attempts ever 3 games...in 105 minutes on the floor, 4 attempts. It's a non issue. 4 shots in over 105 minutes. I should say it over and over again until that sinks in. The Hawks average 20.1 3 attempts a game. He shoots 1.3 per game. It's a non issue. It might be an issue for you, but not for most everyone including Woody since we are continuing to see plays called for him to shoot jumpers.

No you aren't putting 2 and 2 together. Let me try to explain this logically. Josh made 10 of 14 free throw attempts tonight. Do you know how to get 14 free throw attempts in a game? Yeah that's right. Standing at the 3 point line. You always draw 7-10 fouls in 39 minutes standing at the 3 point line. You can rant and hate all you want about a player "always" standing at the 3 point line but the numbers don't suggest that. Josh is averaging 5 free throws a night. Jump shooters don't shoot 5 FT's a night. He shot 14 tonight. You don't shoot that many free throws being a jump shooter. he wasn't at the line...he was around the basket enough in 39 minutes to earn 14 free throws. I've labeled facts here. I quoted stats all through this thread. You're screaming that I must be wrong because you don't hear other people agree'ing with me. There are 4 other people in the thread stating they are either for it or like me do not care. Josh has the 3rd highest shooting percentage on the team, and 2nd among starters. You don't get that being a jump shooter who hangs at the 3 point line all the time. Josh is 2nd on the team in rebounds. You don't do that standing at the 3 point line. Josh is first in blocks, you don't do that standing at the 3 point line. Josh is 1st in steals, you don't do that standing at the 3 point line. Just because he has been at the 3 point line doesn't mean he standing around there looking for ho's. Before tonight the team shot 1560 - 3 pointers this year, of which Josh shot 81. He shot 1 out of every 19.5 three point shots. That's right....5% of the hawks 3 pointers were Josh Smith. 5 other players on the hawks have shot more 3 pointers. Josh shooting or being at the 3 point line is such an insignificant occurance statistically it is ridiculous to bring it up. Come on. Show me some facts. Or let this unfounded hatred die. Be honest. You are whining about a starting player in the NBA averaging 35 minutes a game shooting 83 long range shots in a season...of which he's made 25. So in reality you're only whining about the 58 he's missed in 65 games played. You are the one not putting 2 and 2 together. Your argument is ridiculous.

Just as I would also assume you realize a much greater percentage of Josh's 3's are desperation, clock running out from JJ running 15 seconds of ISO off the clock 3's. Just 10 of those from Josh this year would take 12% off his average with only 81 attempts before tonight. Believe me. I've seen 10 this year. It's like freaking hot potato. 3 people get the ball at the end of the 24 and no one wants to create their own shot so baroomp it lands in Josh's hands and he puts up a desperation 3 as time expires. Be real here, Josh has taken only 81 attempts heading into tonight. Joe Johnson 398. Josh taking 3's is not and has never been an offensive problem. Trying to say 1.3 three point attempts a game is an offensive problem is just player hate. There are 48 minutes in a pro ball game. Typically each team attempts about 80 shots. on average each starter tries about 12. You have got to be kidding me if you're trying to say that 1.3 attempts from 3 out of 80 shots in a game is a problem. It's just ridiculous. Wilt Chamberlin is not a Hawk. You can't just dump the ball in low 80 times a game and succeed. Everyone has to get into the flow of the game and everyone has to have some range. Guards can't just shoot jumpers, they have to drive. Big men just can't only dunk, they have to have some kind of jumper too. 1.3 attempts is not an offensive problem.

What I'm saying is people blow the negatives here way out of proportion. Let's keep it in context. We keep hearing people say "Josh lurks out at the 3 point line" or "He's always jacking up 3's". He's averaged 1.3 per game for the year. That is hardly "Jacking" or "Lurking". It's not even enough to have a real impact in most games. It's a non issue to me. Especially when you consider he's close to 50% from the field overall for the year. People here keep saying, Josh thinks he's an outside shooter. Every time I see him shoot from the 3 point line I cringe. If that's the case, you cringe 1.3 times a game. That's it. 1.3 - three point attempts a game does not make him the 2nd coming of J.R. Rider. Consider it this way. Joe Johnson turns the ball over 2.5 times a game, Josh Smith 2.4, Mike Bibby 1.7, Flip Murray 1.6 and Al Horford 1.5. I would venture to say these 9.7 turnovers have a much bigger impact on the game than a guy shooting 1.3 three pointers a game that coincidently he makes .4 of them.

He is serious. Joe Johnson has shot "398" 3-pointers this year making 140 of them for a 35.2 percentage. Josh Smith has shot 81 3-point attempts this year making 24 of them for a 29.6 percentage. For every 100 3 pointers each attempts, there has been a 5.6% disparity. If each shot 100, Joe would make 5.6 more...that's it. However here is the math that makes sense. Josh is a 48.8% shooter this season. That basically means every 2 pointer is worth about .976 points. at 29.6% his average 3 pointer is worth .888 points. Joe is a 43.3 % shooter thes season. That basically means every 2 pointer is worth about .866 points. at 35.2% his average 3 pointer is worth 1.062 points per attempt. The argument everyone is trying to make is that Josh shouldn't shoot 3's because he is .088 points per attempt worse than when he shoots a regular 2 point shot. Using that same logic, Joe Johnson should only shoot 3's then because he is .196 points per attempt more effective shooting only 3's. If you guys are buying into Josh not taking any more 3 point attempts a game because his 1.4 attempts per game are by my formula costing the Hawks .12 points per game then you also need to buy into the argument that Joe Johnson should stop shooting 2's as his 18.2 attempts per game are costing the hawks 3.56 points a game. ------------------------------------ And now that I hope that I have your hating attention. Over the last 31 games, Josh has shot 11 for 28 from 3 point land for a 39.3% clip. Over the same time frame, Joe has shot 49 for 128 from 3 point land for a 38.3% clip. For the last 2 months plus Josh has been 1 % better than Joe but has taken 100 less attempts. You should probably get off his nuts.

Here is all we need to know about Mr. Claxton. Career games = 332 Career FG% = 40.9 Career minutes/pg = 25:41 Career PPG = 9.3 Career APG = 4.4 Career TO/G = 1.8 Stats as an Atlanta Hawk Games played = 42 FG% = 32.7 MPG = 25.06 PPG = 5.3 APG = 4.4 TO/G = 1.8 If Acie were given 25 minutes a game, I'd have to believe he could average 5.3 points and 4.4 assists. Let someone else get the expiring contract in July. That's what I say. You can't tell me that http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/players/39367 wouldn't do better at a 2nd rounders pay next season.

weird though...last 4 games Smith is 3 of 3, 0-1, 1-3 and now 3-5 tonight from 3 point range. That's 7 of 12 from 3. You think maybe he's been working with someone on this?

Now where did all the "hawks are better without marvin" threads go Diesel? Still think we are better without Marvin.