thecampster

All I know is that this player with "so little skills" led our team in scoring in the playoffs.

2009 playoff stat line

17.1 ppg

7.5 reb

2.2 *ss

1.1 stl

1.5 blk

1.9 TO

Not bad from a 23 year old considering other guys on the team just flat disappeared during games.

Caron Butler came into the league at 22. Marvin's just 22 now.

Moreover, why doesn't anybody ever compare Marvin to Melo?

They both played 1 year of College ball.

They both ended up on a team that won the NCAA championship.

They are both tweener forwards.

I get it.. it's too steep. I mean, Melo is a two time all-star and Marvin is just an above average Sf. Melo is his team's best player or maybe 2nd best player and Marvin is about 4th on our list.. .maybe 5th..

You can't play the situation game with Butler and Marvin because like Malone and Smoove, their approach to the game is different. Butler is 6'7" 217. He can't play inside, he mostly stake out in the midrange and beyond.. however, when he has the ball in his hands, he's a slasher first. He uses his outside shot to paralyze his defender so that he can slash past them.

Marvin's game is just waiting for a three pointer. Waiting for a pass. Marvin doesn't have the handles of a Caron Butler. He is too big to slash through the crowd like Butler does. The Comparison for those who only watches stats.

D, you're confusing me here. Do you like Marvin or not? 4th best player on an NBA team is not too shabby for a 22 year old guy. Yeah maybe my standards are low but if you think he's good enough to be a starter for an NBA team (4th best on a team) then what's all the trying to trade/bash Marvin stuff for?

I mean 4th best player on a team that has Joe Johnson (all star), Mike Bibby, Josh Smith, Al Horford. What gives?

:help wanted:

Eh, it was an average-ish offensive performance (made smart passes, no stupid turnovers) but he was again the heart of our D. Even Joe took 21 possessions to get 24 points.

Something does need to change though if we're going to become elite with this group because Josh is the only one with the ability to push us over the top with the skills he does have. If he continues to be just "good" then we won't be able to be much better than the 47 win team we are now.

Let me add this question. What if he learned to shoot from the outside efficiently. Like 45% from 15-20 feet, 36% from 3 and continued to be 60% plus on the inside. How much would he score? and how dominant would he be?

Smoove is the series MVP, after we win game 6.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-1...----So-Bad.html

Alright read this article. It gets out everything you guys talk about. That said, it also brings to mind the concept of "Dang" that kid is learning and what happens when he puts it all together.

You gotta love "homer" fanbases.

- Orlando fans think that Dwight Howard shouldn't have been suspended for that elbow he threw.

- Boston fans think that the rake across the face that Rondo did to Brad Miller, was simply him "trying to play the ball"

- And Hawks fans think that a between the legs dunk attempt in a blowout playoff game by Smoove, is totally acceptable.

All I hope is that Josh Smith comes out in Game 6, playing at the highest level possible, because the Heat are going to try to immeadiately punk him. Don't be surprised if a player that they don't need, like a Jamal Magloire, tries to take Smoove out.

You think Hawk fans booing Wade is impressive . . just wait till we get to Miami on Friday, and hear Smoove's reception there.

What Smoove did, is equivalent to T.O.'s touchdown pose on the Dallas star at midfield . . . or a baseball player literally walking about the basepads after a grand slam . . or the Tennessee Titans stomping on the Terrible Towel after their regular season win against Pittsburgh.

It was just flat out disrespectful and uncalled for. All he had to do was his signature dunk, and the house still would've come down. But he had to go to extreme with the ish. And yes, players remember ish like that.

The Steelers didn't lose a game, after being "disrespected" by the Titans, after the Terrible Towel incident.

Yeah . . the ish is funny and all smiles now. I just hope we're all smiling this time early Saturday morning, and not bytching about how terrible the Hawks looked in Game 6.

I for one DO NOT want to see a player of Dwyane Wade's caliber come back to ATL for a decisive Game 7. That'll be the game he picks to drop 45 on us. And if that happens, both Smoove and JJ better bring their best ish.

There's not going to be a single media person outside of Atlanta, who will approve of what Smoove did. Not one.

All I know, is his azz better come ready to play on Friday, after pulling that stunt.

You guys are so funny. If you are a Miami player, you know that without Smith you just won this series 4-1. If Smith pulls off that dunk, every non battle tested member of that squad just walks away going, "Damn" that guy can do whatever he wants."

points 17.2, reb 8.6, assist 2.2, blocks 1.8, steals 1.6. All while playing good defense. These are pretty damn good numbers for a guy who should technically be a rookie right now. Again. 23 years old.

Exactly.

I went to take a dump at the end of the quarter because of that three.

:lol6:

gotta laugh. that was funny, But seriously. Why single a guy out for shooting outside when it's obvious (based on what happened after they took him out in the second) that he was willing the Hawks at that point.

I'm so disgusted with JJ right now I could scream and yet we're picking on Josh.

For the playoffs out of 16 teams, Josh is leading the hawks in scoring at 16.5 ppg and is 25th in the league. He is 7th overall in blocks and leads the hawks. He is 11th overall in rebounding. (Zaza is 8th due to last night). He is 13th in steals and 45th in assists. he is currently 24th in efficiency rating and that leads the Hawks.

JJ, our star who makes 40% more a year, is 41st in scoring (based on 16 teams that makes him a third option. based on 16 teams meaning 80 starters in the league that means over half of the other starters i the playoffs are outscoring him.), he has no blocks, is 68th in rebounding, 89th in steals (yes all starters plus 9 bench players are out doing him here and that includes the pistons), 38th in assists. and 102nd in efficiency rating.

How about a little heat on Joe Johnson instead? Josh is 1st on the Hawks in 4 of the 6 categories mentioned and is 2nd in the other. JJ is only better in assists by .3 per game. This is not what I expect out of a number one option, superstar type.

There's a reason the other team leaves you open on the perimeter (which is where you shouldn't be in the 1st place).

Pretty please with sugar on top.

Pass the ball.

LOL you are so full of it. Without Josh's play in the first 18 minutes we lose this game. Got to agree the 3 pointers didn't look good but please get some credibility. 4 blocked shots for the game. His hustle in the first 18 minutes led the Hawks to their lead.

Hawks plus/minus for the game organized by first to last.

Zaza Pachulia (+20)....huge ups for Zaza.

Josh Smith (+20).....

Mo Evans (+16)....

Mike Bibby (+11)... huge turnaround from the first 3 games

Joe Johnson (+11)

Flip Murray....(+5)

Al Horford...(-8)...This is where your venom should be getting spewed.

Mario West...(-10) This was in only 5 minutes

Solomon Jones...(-15) This was in only 3 minutes.

To be honest, Jones flopped the first time(Solo's foul). I don't know what the refs saw the second time(Bibby's foul) to warrant the 4 point play.

LOL It's fixed guys. Can't you see that. We got like 6 fouls in 3 minutes because we were burying them. During that same stretch there was a lead pass down court that haslem caught and took 4 steps before turning and throwing it back. Can't let this series go less than 7. Can't let Wade be ousted in the first round. Can't let a fresh team face Lebron in the second round. Welcome to the NBA the Nobody Believe Anything league.

That was a sad sorry 3 minutes of officiating and some of the best evidence yet of a game being fixed. Bibby had a bloody nose from getting decked by Wade and then got called for an illegal screen seconds later for basically standing back up.

Flip Murray was 4-14 from FG.

It really worries me to hear y'all talk about he is like our top FA priority next season. The guy has no conscience. A guy I would want to re-sign would know that when he is on the floor with JJ, he is not the number 1 option.

Yeah, he has been a bargain this season and a veteran presence and has helped some but he is NOT someone to build around. There's a reason Sund signed him to a 1 year deal.

God, I hope Sund has the vision to only sign him on another CHEAP contract or LET HIM WALK.

His FG % and A/T ratio is way too low for my tastes. Guy is a "me" player and is one of the least efficient players in the league.

you are tapping into something here that i don't think you want to go down that road. The board will fry you. So I'll do it.

Bibby - 6 of 12 (4-8 from 3) for 18 points.

Murray - 4 of 15 (1-5 from 3) for 15 points)

Johnson - 5 of 13 ( 1 of 2 from 3) for 16 points

Total - 15 of 40 ( 6 of 15 from 3) for 49 points. That's 37.5% shooting from our guards and 1.21 points per attempt.

Horford - 5 of 9 for 11 points

Smith - 8 of 14 (0-1 from 3) for 17 points

Williams - 4 of 9 (0-3 from 3) for 11 points.

Total - 17 of 32 for 39 points. That's a 53.1 shooting percentage and 1.22 points per attempt.

So as you can see, the bigs are at least as effective scoring even with only 4 3's between them compared to 15 by the guards. But the benefit to playing close to the basket and not jacking up 3's is that a missed 3 is very often a long rebound and leads to a break by the other team.

Also, the only person on the Hawks the other night with a positive +/- was Zaza. Just throwing that out there.

This isn't a one game thing either. In game one:

The 3 guards were 12 of 30 (40%) and scored 27 points. .9 per attempt

the 3 bigs were 17 of 29 (58.6%) and scored 47 points 1.62 per attempt.

When we let the bigs score we tend to win. When our guards...all 3 of them...get shot happy instead of moving the ball around and looking to go down low and wait for a kick out, we lose.

This has been going on all year.

For the year the 3 guards have averaged 17.8 of 40.7 (43.7%) 48.5 points a game or 1.19 per attempt

The bigs have averaged 15.5 of 31.4 (49.4%). 41 ppg or 1.31 per attempt.

Any offense where your point guard and shooting guard are 1 and 2 in attempts per game but are 8th and 9th in shooting percentage is not in good shape. Take out the scrubs and only use the rotation players, and only Mo Evans is shooting worse. JJ and Bibbs shoot the worst percentages of the starters but take the most shots.

I'd actually rather see the one handed oop he threw down in the half court... it came out of no where and you could see just how high he can get even without a running start. Interestingly enought, its not in any of these "slow motion" dunk captures from the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXsRSFsHlzE

They would all work as a good commercial. You could do the reverse oop in transition from Bibby and watch Smith backtrack and then pan to the crowd going nuts and say "Where hometown heroes happen" or something.

That sir....Is Brilliant.

Hawksquawk....Where Brilliance Happens.

it's gotten ridiculously hard to get anything online now. There's been a sweeping crackdown over the past 6 months.

Yeah what sucks is I work in the data center underground in a big building in Alpharetta. There is no getting 790 the zone down here or any other radio station. So if I can't get something online I might as well be in Siberia.

I'm gonna be missing the game tonight, I have an exam at 7:00 pm central. Last exam I had for this class took three hours to complete so more than likely I'll be missing all the game.

We don't have NBA playoffs on tv here in mexico so I can't have someone tape the game for me, my only hope of watching the game is downloading a Torrent (which takes to damn long) or catching a stream somwhere.

I remember someone had posted a site that offered streaming games (that uploaded games a couple of hours after they had finished). Do any of you remember the name of the website and whether or not they have been uploading playoff games?

Yeah I'm stuck at work tonight and would love a radio/ stream link. Won't get home till midnight and don't wanna stay up till 2 to watch the dvr of it.

We don't scare Cleveland.

Nov 22nd @ Cleveland we lost by 14 points and that includes us outscoring them by 7 in the 4th. We were down 17 at halftime and 21 at the end of 3. Each team had all 5 starters but Cleveland has since added Joe Smith.

Dec 13th @ Home we won by 5 points but Cleveland was without Big Z and Daniel Gibson and again have added Joe Smith to their roster since.

Mar 1st @ Home we lost by 1 point after getting screwed at the end. Each team had their starting 5 but Cleveland has since added Joe Smith to their roster.

Mar 21st @ Cleveland we lost by 11 points and that includes us outscoring the Cavs by 10 in the 4th quarter and we were down 18 at halftime. We were without Marvin for this game.

So in 4 games we were blown out twice and then we had a close win and a close loss in the other 2 games. One of the blowouts can be thrown out since Marvin was missing which leaves them 1-0 against us in Cleveland and 1-1 against us in Atlanta although we could have easily been 2-0 in Atlanta but weren't far off from being 0-2 in Atlanta either.

The way I see it they'd slaughter us in Cleveland in games 1,2 and we might squeak out games 3 or 4 at home and at best we could force the series to 6 games so I really don't think it's fitting to call that scaring them.

Game 1: Factually Incorrect. Josh Smith was out with his bum ankle. This game is a wipe on that alone. We lose a defensive matchup option with Josh out.

Game 2: We won!

Game 3: End of the 1st half and end of the game 2 phantom Lebron calls. We were handling them in this game and repeatedly the ref's jumped to lebron's aid. This was a streak ender game and obviously the NBA did not want it to end. This game should be called a win and you know it.

Game 4: Hawks came out flat this game and were down 14 at the end of the 1st quarter. The rest of the game was competitive with the Hawks making it close in the end.

1 2 3 4 Total

Atlanta 13 22 28 33 96 Final

Cleveland 27 26 26 23 102

Fact is, the season series should have been 2-2 and a healthy Josh Smith in game 1 could have made it 3-1 in favor of Atlanta. I'm not saying this would be the case. I'm just saying you're casting this as the Cavs spanking our rears all year and that is not the case. Yes it was 1-3 for the season series but could easily have been 3-1. I think you're just putting too much weight into the last game.

Most importantly, this team has gone through a ton this year and the team playing Miami on Sunday was not the team I saw all year. Many things have improved. Right now if I were a betting man I'd say the Cleveland series is a 6-4 cleveland favored to win.

LOL dude this cracked me up. Hot you are underappreciated around here. Way to keep it real.

I would love to see Cleveland get a first round matchup with Chicago.

Possible upset.

People have already handed Cleveland the East, but the truth is Chicago has a great PG (in the making), balance, and a decent bench. IF Deng can do anything... and Noah just shows up defensively, I think Chicago can take Cleveland. Unfortunantly, Chicago is 7th seed and rising. Same applies for a Chicago Boston Series but that doesn't have anything to do with us.

Detroit Cleveland is a different story.

Detroit is a vet team with problems at the SG. However, if the coach can get his mind right for the playoffs. Trust Iverson and play his aging Big Sheed. I think Detroit causes some matchup problems for Cleveland. First Tayshun on Lebron. Tayshun is a better defensive forward. Second, Halmilton/Iverson has to figure out how to be a scoring combo. Neither Ivy or Stuckey are PGs but at least Iverson can look up every now and then. Still, I think the guard play will do Detroit in. Even with an advantage with their bigs.

Philadelphia vs. Orlando could tbe a snore fest.

Can Philly actually shoot with Orlando? Will Philly make Anthony Johnson look like Jason Kidd. Dalembert vs. Howard? I think Philly loses this one on the Arc. Orlando is prone to falling asleep in games and keeping their opponents in it, but with their three point snipers working, I don't see Philly answering. The only chance Philly has is if Thad Young Steps up and plays big. Defensively, he would have to shut down Lewis... and get some help on Turk. Offensively, he needs to be a 20/10 guy every win.

You know what bugs me about you Diesel. It's how often I agree with you on most everything that doesn't have M.W. as it's initials. How can I agree with you so much on posts like this one and disagree so much on others.

From 5-15 feet he shoots 31.8%.

From 15 feet to the 3 pt line he shoots 35.6%.

From the 3 pt line he shoots 29.4%.

Among power forwards who have played at least 500 minutes this year all of these guys have a higher rebounding rate than Smith:

Kevin Love, MIN

2 Antonio McDyess, DET

3 Carlos Boozer, UTH

4 Troy Murphy, IND

5 Reggie Evans, PHI

6 David Lee, NYK

7 Chris Andersen, DEN

8 Shelden Williams, MIN

9 Paul Millsap, UTH

10 Chuck Hayes, HOU

11 Leon Powe, BOS

12 Luis Scola, HOU

13 Kevin Garnett, BOS

14 Elton Brand, PHI

15 Zach Randolph, LAC

16 Ben Wallace, CLE

17 James Singleton, DAL

18 Lamar Odom, LAL

19 Nick Collison, OKC

20 Jason Thompson, SAC

21 Amir Johnson, DET

22 Louis Amundson, PHO

23 Renaldo Balkman, DEN

24 Chris Bosh, TOR

25 Chris Wilcox, NYK

26 Charlie Villanueva, MIL

27 Pau Gasol, LAL

28 Udonis Haslem, MIA

29 Darrell Arthur, MEM

30 Shawn Marion, TOR

31 Josh Powell, LAL

32 Ryan Anderson, NJN

33 Brian Skinner, LAC

34 Marreese Speights, PHI

35 J.J. Hickson, CLE

36 Rasheed Wallace, DET

37 Antawn Jamison, WAS

38 Joe Smith, CLE

39 Jason Maxiell, DET

40 Carl Landry, HOU

41 Yi Jianlian, NJN

42 Sean Marks, NOR

43 Brandon Bass, DAL

44 Tyrus Thomas, CHI

45 David West, NOR

46 Andray Blatche, WAS

47 Amare Stoudemire, PHO

48 Mikki Moore, BOS

49 Michael Beasley, MIA

50 Dirk Nowitzki, DAL

51 LaMarcus Aldridge, POR

52 Solomon Jones, ATL

53 Hakim Warrick, MEM

54 Dominic McGuire, WAS

The numbers don't lie.

Your numbers do lie. You are using rebounds per minute. Most subs numbers get skewed. LOL Solomon Jones???

LOL @ using a yahoo listing. We watch Smith and know where he plays. He listed other guys who are 3s. Please show me the guys he listed who start at the 4.

Brand, Boozer and Amare are all far better jump shooters than Smith. amare's EFG on jumpers is 44.5%.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08PHO15.HTM

Smith's is 34.3%

http://www.82games.com/0809/08ATL10.HTM

It is lame for a pf.

i don't see Horford spotting up behind the line. i didn't see marvin spotting up behind the line last year. They play in the same offense.

Smith's man will always double because he knows Smith isn't a threat from 3. When Smith is behind the line the defense only has to guard 4 guys.

How can i qualify it by saying what i originally said? That doesn't even make sense.

The only change i made was asking for one instead of more than one.

You do realize that a small forward spends more time on the perimeter than a power forward, right? hence the "small" and "power" designations. Are you saying there is no difference between the position Duncan plays and the position Lebron and Melo play?

Diaw started 55 games at the 4 for the Cats. I remember all too well him schooling Smith. May started 12 games and i doubt it was at the 3.

So anyway Exodus, I know your logic seems to be making perfect sense to you here. I get that. I even understand what you are saying. I just realize you take everything I'm saying and are ignoring it as it doesn't fit your argument. Take a step back and look at the bevy of stats and evidence I've laid out and just think about it again. You can't really be serious when say he is a 5 feet from the basket player only. I just can't see you saying that.

Why don't you show me where i changed the question? i think you just didn't understand it the first time.

FYI even though i rag on Smith for shooting 3s and trying to lead the break i am still a fan of his and his jersey is in my closet.

I've decided to break down your arguments in this thread one by one. I think it will help.

Guys like Amare, Boozer and Brand are far better jump shooters than Smith. Why don't they take 3s?

Amare has taken 73 3pointers in his career. He is a 19% shooter from the arc. He took 31 last year. Boozer is 1 of 9 from 3 in his career for 11%. Brand is 2 for 13 in his career for 15.4%. Sub 20% and all 3 are listed as F/C on Yahoo (meaning between Forward and Center). Reminding you Smith is listed as F (meaning between Small Forward and Forward). If you won't let other compare non-exact players, you can't do the same.

smith has yet to establish that he can play either style well. He is a poor rebounder and a poor 3 pt shooter.

Sorry bro but you don't sound like much of a JSMith fan to me here. 7.3 rebounds is good for 31st in the NBA among players with 60 games or more. 30% for a season is not a poor 3 point shooter. It is not good and not the number you are looking for but not poor either. 30% from 3 = 45% from 2.

It isn't just the 3s Smith takes that are the problem. It is all the time he spends behind the line that is the problem. When he is behind the 3 pt line the defense can ignore him. When he is behind the line he isn't hitting the offensive boards, cutting to the basket, etc.

This is just an exaggeration and in some ways totally untrue. The first thing you need to admit here is that these sets are by design and not primarily Josh's doing but a product of Woody's ISO sets and having too many interchangable pieces. They are part of an offensive philosophy that all starts with Joe in long term create ISO which requires clearing out space in the lane for Joe to drive and pick up a foul. Josh can't play inside and run these sets. Iso's typically have a center weakside and one of the wings set to fill the lane if the iso decides to pass off during his drive. This leaves either the power forward or Small forward at the arc. One or the other. 2nd The defense can't ignore anyone on the court. If Josh is left unguarded, then I assume you are talking about a double team. If the player being doubled drives to the lane and passes out of the doubleteam, and the player guarding Josh doesn't find him again or chase ball it's an illegal D. He can't ignore him. Furthermore if he does ignore him then shame on the other 4 players for not clearing out the backside for a cut. Don't even try to tell me this never happens. We've all seen the alleyoop dunks.

Why do you think smith gets the ball so frequently behind the line at the end of the clock? it is because he is left wide open while the defenders are covering everyone else.

Next game just watch where Smith's defender is when Smith is behind the line, if you can even tell who his defender is supposed to be.

Easy question! His defender is the guy that's got JJ bottled up because he held the ball too long in ISO and wasn't looking to give it up when he drew the double.

I'll make it even easier for you. Find just one.

I offered Barkley. You said current as in present tense forward. I offered my list.

You qualified it as back to your original post of having to be a power forward and having to shoot more and worse.

All on the list shot worse. 3 shot more this year but all shot similar attempts or attempts per game. Of those, Gerald Wallace is listed by yahoo as 'F' just like Smith meaning he's played both positions this year just like Smith. But saying they have to be a PF like you claim Smith solely is cheapens your argument. When looking at this list, some of these players are combo 2/3's shooting closer to 2 times a game from 3 and shooting only 26-28%. That is the position that is more commonly a 3 threat. This makes Josh more impressive, not less. He is outshooting players who are by design supposed to do it. He is more effective and not less than players who are supposed to outperform him in this area.

maybe you misunderstood the quesiton. I was asking for power forwards who shoot as many 3s as Smith and shoot them worse. I wasn't asking for small forwards or players who are shooting fewer 3s.

LOL you are so full of it. Denial must be a lonely place.

I suppose you can keep qualifying the question. Maybe next you'll say "in their 5th year in the league" or "and never went to college" or maybe even "Power Forward but undersized for the position and is playing the role of a tweener".

You just lost all credibility on the subject bro. I don't care if it's a center, point guard or ball boy. They are NBA players, mostly all starters, all forwards (which is what Josh is. He is a tweener) all shooting a similar number of 3 pointers this year and all shooting for a lower percentage than Josh Smith. And arguing symantics and saying "present only players" is ridiculous.

Let's look at facts. His stats show him to be at least the 2nd best player on a team going to the playoffs with homecourt advantage while only 23 years old. Can you give a brother a little slack?

Do i really have to explain the difference between present and past tense?

Is this in the present or past tense?

If you comb the annals of NBA history sure there is a chance you could find a couple. How long ago did Barkley retire? LOL

Gerald Wallace , CHA 67 17.1 .6 1.9 37 127 .291

Devean George , DAL 43 3.4 .5 1.8 22 76 .289

Stephen Graham , IND 50 5.3 .3 1.3 17 63 .270

Donte Greene , SAC 51 3.9 .5 1.8 25 94 .266

Andrei Kirilenko , UTA 63 11.5 .3 1.1 17 67 .254

Corey Maggette , GSW 51 18.6 .5 1.9 24 95 .253

Al Thornton , LAC 71 16.8 .3 1.1 20 79 .253

Chris Bosh , TOR 73 22.7 .1 .6 10 41 .244

Shawn Marion , TOR-MIA 65 12.5 .1 .8 9 51 .176

I tried to keep the attempts for the season above 40 to keep it significant. Attempts are listed in bold. All the players listed here are qualified per NBA.com as a Forward, some flavor of forward and all are shooting a lower percentage than Josh Smith. Attempts per game is the 4th number. There are plenty more and some even more prominent that have attempted 25 or so.

I'm sure now you'll say something smart like show me ones that are on teams leading their conference and have a 'v' in the nickname.

Are you saying you don't want any of these players on your team?

Yeah but they have completley different builds and games. Joes frame is built more for short term strength than long term endurance. Not to mention a guy only averaging 21 points a game shouldn't be leading the NBA in minutes played. At least Iverson was averaging near 30 during that time. It just doesn't make any sense for Joe to have to play that many minutes.

This is a very on target post. Scorers need fresh legs and are designed to take over in the fourth. They score in bunches and bursts. Very right on.

I watch the games. When Smith is behind the line you might be able to find a defender within 10 feet of him if you're lucky.

I am still waiting for the list of power forwards who shoot as many 3s as smith and shoot them worse.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/charles_barkley/index.html

Arguably one of the best power forwards of all time.

Regular season 538 of 2,020 from 3 for a 26.6% average.

Playoffs 54 of 251 from 3 for a 25.5% average.

All stat games 3 of 12 from 3 for a 25% average.

Go ahead exodus. Argue something about this. 4 times in his career Sir Charles shot over 200 3 point attempts. Josh will probably not hoist 100 this year.

In his best 2 seasons Barkley was 33.8% and 30.5% from 3 skewing his numbers up for the rest of his career. He never shot above 30% in any of his other 14 NBA seasons.

Even more staggering is Barkley's career FG% of 54.1%. Why the hell would a guy shooting 54% from the field shoot 3's when he's shooting 26.6% from behind the arc?

Even more interesting, even though he averaged over 120 3 point attempts a year (or 1.5 a game), he averaged 11.7 rebounds a game. In phoenix in 92-93 he averaged 3 attempts a game and still grabbed 12.2 rpg. Kind of blows that theory out of the water huh?

It's ok though. You still didn't respond to the previous post that explained that even Karl Malone would brick 3's at a 27% rate and still took over 40 one year.

It amazes me that you can't see the big issue. For every 3 that Smith takes there will be several times when he is standing behind the line and doesn't get the ball or gets it and doesn't take a 3. When he is standing behind the line:

-the defense doesn't have to guard him, letting them focus on other guys.

-he isn't getting offensive rebounds, part of the reason why he averages only 7.3 rebounds per game.

-he isn't moving without the ball to get easy looks inside. Childress used to excel at this.

-when he does get the ball he is farther from the basket, making it tougher to drive.

Do you really think that Smith attempts a 3 every time he sets foot behind the line?

There is nothing good that comes from Smith standing behind the line. When he is standing behind the line he is doing exactly what the other team wants.

This thread is a freaking greek tragedy.

a basketball court has basically 5 offensive players. 2 post, 2 wing and 1 point. The posts spend most of their time on either side of the basket. The point starts top of the key. The wings hang out at the 3 point line 90% of the time. However, many sets are run out of this basic configuration.

Hawks starting five

Horford

Smith

Williams

JJ

Bibby

Question 1: Should Horford /Smith / Williams always be within 10 feet of the basket in each offensive set?

If you answer yes, then we no longer get to run a pick and roll. EVER! You can not run a slash pick and roll with the middle clogged as it offers natural help.

Question 2: Should Joe Johnson never post up?

If you answer yes, then we never get to take advantage of mismatches against smaller SG (see Ben Gordon).

Question 3: Is Marvin Williams a full time 3 that should be the player always on the wing?

If you answer yes, then Marvin should never be posting up any of the Small Forwards he faces that are typically 6'8" or shorter.

Question 4: Should we never, ever allow a player on this team to run an iso play?

If you answered no, then you must then understand that you typically clear the post in ISO leaving only one player in the post. Who do you want, Josh, Marvin or Horford? The other 2 will be pushed to the wing.

Question 5: Should we not run any motion?

If you answered no, then you probably also understand that in any motion offense, everyone but typically the center rotates out to the wing at some point.

Think about this. You are speaking in absolutes. As if we run down court and run the same motion 2 set each possession. All of these things happen as a part of our normal (all though sometimes pathetic) offensive sets. It is not Josh being a selfish all about me player. He's at the 3 point line as a part of the normal offense in most situations. If this was not the case then none of the situations mentioned above are going on and we'd have bigger problems.

One last thought. Probably the best post up, pick and roll big man any of us has seen play is Karl Malone. For his career, Malone shot 85 or 310 from the 3 point line for 27.4%. Sound familiar? However, it was a non issue. Consider the 3 point shot from a power forward like the waste pitch in baseball. You are just giving the batter something to think about. Every once in a while he goes fishing and you get a strike out. But that isn't it's purpose. It's just the pitcher throwing something out there. This Josh Smith 1.3 shots a game is the same thing. They go in occasionally. not enough to shoot 6 a game but they do go in and when they do it's gravy but it makes the defense question it every once in a while. But it's a waste pitch. You throw one up and see what they do and then go back to your normal pitching rotation. Meanwhile they think about it.

Exodus,

There is a number you quit ignoring. You can state 300+ 3's in 3 years and 300 sounds like a lot. I've eaten breakfast over 12000 times in my life and that sounds like a lot. But I eat breakfast less than 1 time a day. Does that mean I'm always hanging around the breakfast table looking for scraps. NO!

For his career Josh has averaged 33 minutes a game and has averaged 1.3. 3 point attempts a game. He's shot 27 percent for his career which is the same as shooting 40.5% from 2 for his career. It's a non issue. 1.3 attempts per game for his career is a non issue. That's 4 attempts ever 3 games...in 105 minutes on the floor, 4 attempts. It's a non issue. 4 shots in over 105 minutes. I should say it over and over again until that sinks in. The Hawks average 20.1 3 attempts a game. He shoots 1.3 per game. It's a non issue.

It might be an issue for you, but not for most everyone including Woody since we are continuing to see plays called for him to shoot jumpers.

Why don't you point out where someone besides you has said that?

You don't seem to be able to put two and two together.

Why do you think smith gets the ball so frequently behind the line at the end of the clock? it is because he is left wide open while the defenders are covering everyone else.

Next game just watch where Smith's defender is when Smith is behind the line, if you can even tell who his defender is supposed to be.

No you aren't putting 2 and 2 together. Let me try to explain this logically. Josh made 10 of 14 free throw attempts tonight. Do you know how to get 14 free throw attempts in a game? Yeah that's right. Standing at the 3 point line. You always draw 7-10 fouls in 39 minutes standing at the 3 point line. You can rant and hate all you want about a player "always" standing at the 3 point line but the numbers don't suggest that. Josh is averaging 5 free throws a night. Jump shooters don't shoot 5 FT's a night. He shot 14 tonight. You don't shoot that many free throws being a jump shooter. he wasn't at the line...he was around the basket enough in 39 minutes to earn 14 free throws.

I've labeled facts here. I quoted stats all through this thread. You're screaming that I must be wrong because you don't hear other people agree'ing with me. There are 4 other people in the thread stating they are either for it or like me do not care. Josh has the 3rd highest shooting percentage on the team, and 2nd among starters. You don't get that being a jump shooter who hangs at the 3 point line all the time. Josh is 2nd on the team in rebounds. You don't do that standing at the 3 point line. Josh is first in blocks, you don't do that standing at the 3 point line. Josh is 1st in steals, you don't do that standing at the 3 point line. Just because he has been at the 3 point line doesn't mean he standing around there looking for ho's.

Before tonight the team shot 1560 - 3 pointers this year, of which Josh shot 81. He shot 1 out of every 19.5 three point shots. That's right....5% of the hawks 3 pointers were Josh Smith. 5 other players on the hawks have shot more 3 pointers.

Josh shooting or being at the 3 point line is such an insignificant occurance statistically it is ridiculous to bring it up. Come on. Show me some facts. Or let this unfounded hatred die. Be honest. You are whining about a starting player in the NBA averaging 35 minutes a game shooting 83 long range shots in a season...of which he's made 25. So in reality you're only whining about the 58 he's missed in 65 games played. You are the one not putting 2 and 2 together. Your argument is ridiculous.