thecampster
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Posts posted by thecampster
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Great points and thanks for the breakdown. The only thing is that Joe has shot five times more threes than Josh. That means a few hot games have put Josh in this position, where if they were cold games you would see a huge difference in this statistic. They were not cold games and I take nothing away from a player wanting to extend his range. I just can't trust these statistics until Josh puts a few more up there (after offseason work) For the playoffs, I say if he's hitting then let him shoot. He just has to know when to call it good or call it quits.
What I'm saying is people blow the negatives here way out of proportion. Let's keep it in context. We keep hearing people say "Josh lurks out at the 3 point line" or "He's always jacking up 3's". He's averaged 1.3 per game for the year. That is hardly "Jacking" or "Lurking". It's not even enough to have a real impact in most games. It's a non issue to me. Especially when you consider he's close to 50% from the field overall for the year.
People here keep saying, Josh thinks he's an outside shooter. Every time I see him shoot from the 3 point line I cringe. If that's the case, you cringe 1.3 times a game. That's it. 1.3 - three point attempts a game does not make him the 2nd coming of J.R. Rider. Consider it this way. Joe Johnson turns the ball over 2.5 times a game, Josh Smith 2.4, Mike Bibby 1.7, Flip Murray 1.6 and Al Horford 1.5. I would venture to say these 9.7 turnovers have a much bigger impact on the game than a guy shooting 1.3 three pointers a game that coincidently he makes .4 of them.
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You cant be serious.
He is serious.
Joe Johnson has shot "398" 3-pointers this year making 140 of them for a 35.2 percentage.
Josh Smith has shot 81 3-point attempts this year making 24 of them for a 29.6 percentage.
For every 100 3 pointers each attempts, there has been a 5.6% disparity. If each shot 100, Joe would make 5.6 more...that's it.
However here is the math that makes sense.
Josh is a 48.8% shooter this season. That basically means every 2 pointer is worth about .976 points. at 29.6% his average 3 pointer is worth .888 points.
Joe is a 43.3 % shooter thes season. That basically means every 2 pointer is worth about .866 points. at 35.2% his average 3 pointer is worth 1.062 points per attempt.
The argument everyone is trying to make is that Josh shouldn't shoot 3's because he is .088 points per attempt worse than when he shoots a regular 2 point shot.
Using that same logic, Joe Johnson should only shoot 3's then because he is .196 points per attempt more effective shooting only 3's.
If you guys are buying into Josh not taking any more 3 point attempts a game because his 1.4 attempts per game are by my formula costing the Hawks .12 points per game then you also need to buy into the argument that Joe Johnson should stop shooting 2's as his 18.2 attempts per game are costing the hawks 3.56 points a game.
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And now that I hope that I have your hating attention.
Over the last 31 games, Josh has shot 11 for 28 from 3 point land for a 39.3% clip.
Over the same time frame, Joe has shot 49 for 128 from 3 point land for a 38.3% clip.
For the last 2 months plus Josh has been 1 % better than Joe but has taken 100 less attempts. You should probably get off his nuts.
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I think the $25M the Hawks guaranteed him is respect enough.
He doesn't deserve to play simply because he's finally healthy.
Here is all we need to know about Mr. Claxton.
Career games = 332
Career FG% = 40.9
Career minutes/pg = 25:41
Career PPG = 9.3
Career APG = 4.4
Career TO/G = 1.8
Stats as an Atlanta Hawk
Games played = 42
FG% = 32.7
MPG = 25.06
PPG = 5.3
APG = 4.4
TO/G = 1.8
If Acie were given 25 minutes a game, I'd have to believe he could average 5.3 points and 4.4 assists. Let someone else get the expiring contract in July. That's what I say. You can't tell me that http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/players/39367 wouldn't do better at a 2nd rounders pay next season.
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One play really bothered me. Horford gets a pass right in the middle of the lane. Instead of looking to shoot he immediately passes out to Smith for a 3. Why isn't he looking to score? And of course i always hate seeing Smith spotting up behind the line.
weird though...last 4 games Smith is 3 of 3, 0-1, 1-3 and now 3-5 tonight from 3 point range. That's 7 of 12 from 3. You think maybe he's been working with someone on this?
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Now where did all the "hawks are better without marvin" threads go Diesel? Still think we are better without Marvin.
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I'd be happy to hear him admit that it's neither the midway point nor the middle [portion] of the season when Smith changed the way he was playing significantly. I can't see an argument being made for anything other than it was the final 1/3rd of the season when he started shooting all of those 3's.
Oh let's see if I can throw some fuel on this fire.
Josh took a whole 14 3's in March and hit 6 of them for a 42.86% clip. Does that make him a 3 point shooter since he was 42.86% for a month? Better yet. In the playoffs last year he shot 82% from the free throw line. Does that make him a good free throw shooter?
Here's the reality. In 369 career games, Josh Smith has attempted 456 3 point attempts. he has made 121 of them for a 26.5% career average on 1.24 attempts per game. That's 363 points on 3's in 369 games.
In theory, if we would have thrown the ball inside on each of those possessions and converted at a 50% rate (good for the NBA), we would have scored 456 points. 93 more than before. That works out to a whopping 2 tenths of a point more per game. I hate all these stupid arguments about Josh Smith shooting 3's. Who gives a flying rip about 1/5th of a point per game? If you are so anal as to get bent out of shape over less than a quarter of a point in basketball you need a girlfriend. You need her to draw you a hot bath and you need her to have very low standards.
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I missed the game. I didn't know it was an early game. :sad:
You missed an entertaining game Hot. I don't know what all these guys are talking about. You don't have to score 120 for it to be a good game. I'll take stellar defensive games over a no defense allstar game any day.
Josh's missed dunk should have made the yahoo high light reel.
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Well done! :beer:
Pachulia and Acie Law too
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:beathorse:
I'll give you four numbers that can defend him.
41-28.
We've improved every year under Woody and are poised to make a huge jump next year.
we've also added flip, bibby, johnson, horford, under woody and everyone as matured (which is only bad in bibby's case.) They've improved inspite of woody. not because of woody.
And it is not a reach assumption. The article clearly states they argue over play calling. Do you honestly think the last shot of any game that has Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Josh Childress on it should be drawn up for Tyron Lue? If you've never worked for a boss that you felt you were more competent then, than you are extremely lucky. you know I speak from a very unique perspective here. Both of my kids have gone through travel baseball their whole life. Since the age of 6, they've played no less than 60 ballgames a year through high school (the youngest is 15 now). They've practice on average over 100 times a year and played over 60 games a year for 9-12 years (depending on the kid). That means about 2000 practices or games each and they aren't even college level or pro. They've traveled and played in about 10 different states and each has had multiple, multiple coaches. Believe me when I tell you that you don't get to the pro level and not know something. We make fun of the guys and say they have a low BB IQ but by the time they are 20, these pro athletes have played more BB than most of us ever watch and remember it hasn't been only Josh. Woodson has clashed repeatedly with other players as marked in the article. It's safe to assume that philosophy is most probably the subject matter. None of them want to lose. They are professionals.
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http://www.ajc.com/services/content/sports...=7&cxcat=21
interesting excerpts from the article
Woody's take
During last Sunday’s blowout win over Portland, point guard Mike Bibby drew Woodson’s ire. On a 4-on-1 break he pulled up for a jumper and missed. Woodson lost it on the sideline and shouted at Bibby, who by then was on the other end of the floor. Bibby shouted something back and Woodson fumed for another 30 seconds before everything went back to normal.
Had that player been Smith, the fallout likely would have lasted longer and been far more contentious.
Woodson disagreed.
“You can’t compare it,” he said. “Bibby didn’t curse me out. Or tell me that the play should be for someone else, like Josh did in Philadelphia when we suspended him. It’s like what happened in Charlotte. But it ended that night.”
Josh's take
“These past few games,” Smith said, “if you notice, a lot of that hard stuff hasn’t been said, and you see the results. That’s all I ask for. I know you’re going to get on me when you need to, because I’ve still got a lot to learn and a lot of growing to do. But if you leave me alone a little bit … it’s just easier to do your job that way.”
and from the article
When those matching passions bump heads is when things tend to go awry — as they did in Philadelphia two years ago.
Woodson called a play late in the game against the 76ers for Tyronn Lue. Smith didn’t agree. After a profane outburst in the huddle, Smith was sent to the showers. He was suspended two games for insubordination the next day.
What this means: Smith and Woodson argue because they both love basketball. Josh thinks it should be played from the inside out. Woodson being an old guard thinks it should be played outside in. They don't get along because woody thinks guards win basketball games and Josh doesn't. That's what the arguments stem from. Woodson reliance as a former guard on guards as primary scorers.
Which is why he sticks with Bibby and why Acie's inability to score from outside keeps him from playing more. Josh and Woodson's comments alude to Woodson treating the guards differently. I mean who in their right freaking mind draws the last play of a game up for Tyron Lue?
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Flip got us back in the game when we were struggling.
Refs were bad tonight
Strong performance from Al and Joe too
Frustrating to see Smith back to old form taking bad shots and making stupid decisions. Hopefully, this is only a one game lapse.
We officially have a winning record for the season! We will soon clinch a playoff spot and hopefully home court. We are 4 games up on Miami now.
The turnovers I can agree with but shot selection. He was 6 of 11..he only took 11 shots and made more than half???
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he is so hard to listen to some times. you know The bottom line is you can't say the bottom line is every 3rd sentence. He always sounds like he just got up form a nap.
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Still can't answer who was guarding Roy? Maybe you should try watching the games. You might learn something.
There are several reasons for the Hawk improved D lately;
-fewer turnovers leading to fewer fast breaks for the opposition.
-better defensive rebounding
-JJ hitting his shots, leading again to fewer fast breaks.
-a healthy and non sulking Josh Smith.
Mo Evans is not one of those reasons.Roy ripped him a new one.
I notice you haven't volunteered any theories as to why the Hawks defense has improved. I think we all know what your answer is and it has nothing to do with any facts.
Speaking of which. Did you notice how much less switching we did in the Portland game. Sure seemed to be fighting through screens a lot more to me.
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So in other words, the fact that we shut down the PTL team is not good defense?
No one man contribution will ever be more important than what the team can do. If you kill the team, then that 1 man contribution is just padding his own stats. I guess that's your blindness ex. You want to talk about one player and you miss the whole team picture.
The fact is that over the past 5 games, we're holding teams to 10 points less than our season average.
The fact is that over the past 5 games, 44% which is 1.3% less than they have during the season.
Please continue to ignore the facts as you try and build your strawman.
Diesel here is the problem with what you are assuming. You are taking one part of an equation and saying it can't be ignored. Let me give an example.
It has rained for the last 3 days in Atlanta, therefore Atlanta must therefore not be in a drought.
Now we all know this would be absurd. There is alot more to it than 3 days of drizzling. So too has the last 5 games been more than just the absence of marvin. So too has the 12 and 1 with Mo starting. Given your logic, JJ was a bad pickup as the stats prove the hawks win without him. But a full understanding of the situation shows that the coach changed the offensive game plan to involving the games Joe was out and Marvin and Josh had big games. The rotations changed. Intensity and attitudes changed. Someone had more coffee that day and someone had less. There was more going on than just Marvin going out. There was a coach / player battle. There was a players only team meeting. There was the team coming home from alot of games on the road.
Just my personal humble opinion, but there is a credibility issue when you stretch your argument as you have. Your original argument was that the hawks should have drafted a point guard the year they drafted Marvin Williams. This is a solid argument. One that I back you up on (as I am not a total moron). But to lay credit against Marvin for the Hawks recent improvement is not enough proof. If you are arguing against Marvin then you also have to include the other pertinent stats. Your argument currently against Marvin is a win loss ratio and therefore he isn't as good or important. The hawks were 8-0 when Marvin doesn't play. Therefore Marvin is replaceable and should be shipped out of town. Using that same logic. The Hawks are 2-0 when Joe Johnson is out and is therefore replaceable just like Marvin and should at least not start. The Hawks are 6-7 when Josh Smith is out and is therefore needed to be good enough to make the playoffs. The Hawks are 0-2 when Mike Bibby is out and therefore is irreplaceable. We can't win without him and he should always be on the floor.
Now this is the logic you are employing but only as it deals with Marvin. Given this example it shows a total lack of credibility. You need a better method and honestly you can't find it. Marvin is a good player and a quality starter. He is not the best player in the league and yes we should have drafted Chris Paul or Deron Williams. But he is a Hawk now and should be looked at for his value as a Hawk and not compared to where he was drafted. Instead I say answer this question. Would you resign him and for how much? Or better asked, how much would another team have to offer him for you to let him walk.
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That was the most impressive thing about yesterday. The defense just didn't let up at all. Horford did a very good job on the glass as well.
JJ being agressive also helps a ton. He just kept going to the lane instead of taking bad jumpers.
You know solid offense is the best defense. Less transition baskets. Less running back to cover. There were some plays yesterday that really impressed me. There was a 5 pass play that looked straight out of a college set. We missed the shot but Portland was scrambling to cover. In this set, Joe passed on a 3 and hit Bibby in the corner. The ball went Joe top left, swung right, down into the post, back out to Joe who passed on the shot and quick swung to Bibby. Rathburn said, "Out to Joe for a wide open three, kicked to Bibby for a more wide open 3."
Then the Alley Oop dunk to Josh that was followed up a few plays later by the Josh and Horford fast break with Smith gave the left hand underhand alley oop for Horford. There was so much ball sharing it was kind of hard to watch. I was waiting for Josh to go left and posterize on that play that it took a few seconds for my brain to catch up and realize what I just saw.
Oh yeah....and JJ dunked in the flow of the game too. Like a sissy 4 on the dunkometer but a dunk by Joe none the less. When the offense is kicking like that and the other team is having to play so hard on the defensive end, they just don't have the energy to do the same on offense.
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Great. Now Josh Smith is getting complimented for being bi-polar.
Great.
LOL we all go a little crazy some time. But that is a part of the game the hawks have been lacking. Playing too conservative at times and that includes coaching. As a coach you have to be willing to get tossed from a game, make a mistake, get in someone's face. Unfortunately we sometimes forget that it isn't only the players that are young. Woodson is also a relatively young head coach (from an experience point of view).
But here is how I see it. Before the Josh Smith benching, Joe Johnson and Mo Evans were playing like a pile of dung. But instead at half time Woodson points the finger at Josh. Josh stands up and confronts him (right or wrong no one will know because the context of the arguement hasn't been published). The next day there is a players only meeting that as I understand was called by JJ and Mo (I find this very interesting). 3 very interesting things happened after this meeting (and I say the meeting and not the benching as that first game back, Smith and his team mates were very animated together. Chest bumping and jawing on the bench.) One, Josh asserts himself. He had a very good game and the players fed him the ball in the flow of the game. This tells me that the team meeting was very much an "all for 1 and 1 for all affair". That the players had his back. 2nd Woodson's attitude changed. He made a point of congratulating Josh after that first game, has played the reserves more (9 -10 man rotations since) and has had a quick hook for both Bibby and Flip when they play selfish. 3rd, Joe and Mo have had much more energy since that meeting. So it begs some questions about what came out of it.
1. Did the players take a list of group concerns to Woodson and did they take them as they should through Joe and Mo? (I think this coupled with 3 is most likely as Joe specifically looks emotionally 30 lbs lighter and Mo Evans is again leading by example.)
2. Did the players back Josh and to some extent Acie, SJ and Mario?
3. Did the players only meeting end up with some finger pointing (IE, Mo and Joe calling Josh and others out and maybe the young guys pointing the finger right back. Meaning alot that needed to be said got said.)?
4. Did maybe the assistant coaches finally step up and either A. Take the team leaders/egos aside and intervene and or B. Take Woodson aside and say, "Mike! You are about 3 incidents short of losing this team forever and this is what would get the guys respect back." ?
5. Did a couple of key Hawks players and coaches start reading what every fan is writing about them?
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Ironically enough, we have been playing extremely well since the incident, although we've been at home. That's the type of situation that can make or break a team, and it has obviously done something for us.
I made a criticism of Woody not supporting his players about a week and a half ago. Yesterday did you see Woody crawling all up inside Joey Crawford after he T'd up Al Horford. This is new too. The arms weren't folded and the mouth wasn't hanging open in disbelief. Instead he was berating Crawford. There is no way from Woody's vantage point he saw who tipped that ball. But all he needed to hear was Al cry foul and he stepped up and got into T em up Joey. It was very cool to see.
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nobody has yet answer my question.
nope you're right. Absolutely not. But there is a reason for that. Woody has alot invested in Joe. He pined for Joe. Joe is his guy.
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Johnson- 25 Points, 5 rebounds, 6 assist, 2 stl
Smith- 17 points, 9 rebounds, 3 assists, 5 blocks, 2 stls,
Williams- 14 points 7 rebounds
Horford- 15 Points , 12 rebounds, 3 assists
Bibby- 15 points, 7 assists, 3 rebounds
Flip- 14 points, 4 rebounds
ZaZa- 8 Points, 6 rebounds(4 offensive)
Evans- 6 points 4 rebounds
Acie- 4 points, 4 assists
So in your perfect boxscore average we score 118 points a game on only 16 asssists, grab 54 rebounds, get 5 blocks and 4 steals? LOL yeah I'd take that.
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I'm less likely to believe it though. I mean, who's mad that Joe is the star of this team? Tell me, what player would be upset with that?
You're kidding right? We watched Joe shoot under 40% for 2009 and you think nobody on the hawks said "dude, I was open". Fact is, Acie Law got benched because he hasn't developed as a jump shooter. Salim is out of town and the NBA because of brushes with Woodson. Anthony Johnson is out of town. Pachulia bumped heads with him and is now a backup. Woodson has made only 3 friends on the Hawks I can think of and they all shoot jumpers. Bibby, Flip and Johnson.
For Woodson to earn my respect back, this is what needs to happen. The next time one of his guys goes to the basket (other than Joe) and gets hacked by a star from the other team and no foul is called, I want to see him blow his lid. I want to see his clip board thrown and I want cuss words. I want to see Joey Crawford toss him to the locker room. If I were a player on this team, I'd seriously wonder at this point if coach had my back.
So here's the scenario. A breakaway with Bibby in the middle, Josh on one wing, Horford on the other. Bibbs dishes to Horf and he goes strong to the hole. Dwayne Wade puts a forearm in Horf's chest on his way up. Horf scores but goes to the floor hard. No foul call. Smith rushes in and gets in Wade's face drawing a Technical. Woodson seizes his opportunity...the clipboard goes flying. He jumps in and pushes the irate forward back and starts in on the official. First he's T'd up for leaving the coaches box and he knows it. He points to Wade and starts yelling about the star treatment and at some point yells at the top of his lungs, "you're probably getting paid just like Tim Donaghy". Bam Woodson is Ejected. A huge fine is sure to follow from the NBA. But the players watch their coach walk back to the locker room and once again he is their coach. He stood up for one of them. He interceded to keep Josh in the game and defended Horford as an equal on the court compared to other star players. Bottom line he does his job and earns back their respect.
The problem here is he won't do it. Here is the last fine for Woodson I could find that had to do with questioning the referees.
3/17/06
The NBA fined Mike Woodson (Atl) $20,000 and Josh Smith (Atl) $15,000 for
comments they made regarding the refs following Monday's Atl-Mil game.
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I don't know if someone posted Schultz's article yet:
My favorite line from this one:
Glad to see Josh is trying to get back on the high road.
Anyone who sees this as "Josh is turning the corner", is seriously dillussional (which means most of the board). This is publicity from Josh pure and simple. As was his play against Detroit. As was Woody's going out to hug him. Nothing is better between the 2 of them as evidenced by the player's only meeting before the game on Saturday. Look I'm probably Josh's biggest fan on this board but let's not fool ourselves. Woody can not and will not win a war with a player. He isn't that accomplished. Players put fans in the seats and not coaches. It was the players feeding Josh the ball on Saturday, it was the players bumping chests with him before the game. This will blow up again before the end of the year. Just watch. We got 6 weeks till the playoffs.
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Think JJ said they had a players only meeting. About time they did that. And Smoove and Al got 24 rebounds.
Translation.
Joe says, "Dude he's the coach"
Acie Says, "He's an *ss"
Josh says, "Oh *@!*. He's a *@!*, *@!* and a *@!**@!* *@!*.
Joe says, "Well yeah but as long as he's the coach we gotta be like."
Bibby meanwhile sits and listens to his IPOD.
Al says, "Josh. you want to get rid of him. Score 20 and 12 with 4 blocks a night for a year and then after the season tell management you want a trade if the S.O.B. isn't gone."
Josh says, "yeah"
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On the front page.
Ok, I'll bite. What was selfish about Josh's play last night that would have Woodson single him out again?
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this aint nothing but 2 married couple arguing. but why was they arguing?
Ok 2 things. First I found this http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index....=333673&hl=
It's from the beginning of the year. If you are posting on this, read your comments you made 5 months ago and see if you still feel the same way.
Second, here is the most telling comment I found that exposes what I think is the real issue. This is Woodson's comment from the Yahoo recap. “Guys aren’t serious about what’s at hand. And what’s at hand is us winning this fourth spot and holding it down,” Woodson said. “So we’ve got to go home now and see what we’re made of.”
Translation: Woody called Josh out after the first half and Josh didn't take it, he retaliated verbally. Now we don't know if Woodson called anyone else out and we also don't know if this is his habit to call people out or if he's been targeting just Smith. But from this comment, he said "guys"...not our team, not we, not our guys (as a whole). He said "guys" meaning he has specific people he is laying blame on. This tells me that at least Smith and my guess is Acie and maybe a few others are his whipping boys and you just don't treat grown men that way. Maybe once, maybe twice but if it's a pattern it blows up. I wonder if this is why Johnson has looked so tired, Childress left and free agents don't consider coming here.
Think about this. Have you ever loved your job but hated your boss? That's the vibe I get right now from probably 5 or 6 different Hawks. It's just most evident with Josh Smith because he's emotional and young. Once again, this is why players should go through their maturing phase in college.
Can Josh and the 3pt shot be a good thing?
in Homecourt
Posted
Just as I would also assume you realize a much greater percentage of Josh's 3's are desperation, clock running out from JJ running 15 seconds of ISO off the clock 3's. Just 10 of those from Josh this year would take 12% off his average with only 81 attempts before tonight. Believe me. I've seen 10 this year. It's like freaking hot potato. 3 people get the ball at the end of the 24 and no one wants to create their own shot so baroomp it lands in Josh's hands and he puts up a desperation 3 as time expires. Be real here, Josh has taken only 81 attempts heading into tonight. Joe Johnson 398. Josh taking 3's is not and has never been an offensive problem. Trying to say 1.3 three point attempts a game is an offensive problem is just player hate.
There are 48 minutes in a pro ball game. Typically each team attempts about 80 shots. on average each starter tries about 12. You have got to be kidding me if you're trying to say that 1.3 attempts from 3 out of 80 shots in a game is a problem. It's just ridiculous. Wilt Chamberlin is not a Hawk. You can't just dump the ball in low 80 times a game and succeed. Everyone has to get into the flow of the game and everyone has to have some range. Guards can't just shoot jumpers, they have to drive. Big men just can't only dunk, they have to have some kind of jumper too. 1.3 attempts is not an offensive problem.