thecampster

Totally disagree - Woody is an Idiot - that has been proven. FIRE WOODY! Woody is only on par as BK as a GM - Neither of them are any good nor worthy of holding their positions. BK was fired - now we just need Woody to be fired.

My choice to replace him NOW.

http://www.nba.com/coachfile/doug_collins/

Yeah, it's kind of funny that your buddy didn't even start the second half!

first half stats 6-10 shooting for 13 points. 2 blocks and 4 rebounds.

Yeah I find it odd too. Thanks for noticing.

:no-no: Already I see Josh Smith loafing, playing no defense, and playing out on the perimeter like a point guard. What's up with that? Things better change fast!!

Yeah he made his first 3 shots to lead the team with 6 points and the first rebound on the team (only team rebound through the first 6 minutes). You're right....he's dogging it.

Some of these anti Josh posts are so funny.

Up your nose with a rubber hose Batman.

the hampster has 266 posts but he wants to be the board police.

:slap1:

I've been on the board since 2002 and read much more than I post. 3 years longer than you have. I typically come to get other people's opinions and insight. Not to hear myself talk like some people. Check the personal info.

You know the old saying goes it's better to be quiet and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt. You should take that advice.

More importantly, although I did reply off your post, my statement was intended for the thread creator.

Smith took his sweet time getting to the bench when he got pulled. It was an obvious 'tude move.

As far as I am concerned getting only 2 rebounds against the Knicks should be worth a suspension.

read the other posts. Smith played through the flu last night and had to receive medical attention after the game. your anti Josh Smith posts are really starting to get old.

Smith already has 2 turnovers which turned into 6 points for the Knicks.

yeah he's also 5/6 from the field and 1/1 from the line....try not to be negative unless it's seriously warranted.

What makes you think Marvin doesn't have a green light? For three years, the cries of Woody and JJ has been lack of aggressiveness from Marvin. Doesn't that suggest that there's a green light?

Why is it that there's always excuses made for Marvin?

Diesel, this is pathetic dude. Let it go. Marvin has started to show signs of why the hawks grabbed him. Your personal vendetta is obvious to nearly everyone on the board. Give it up bro. It only takes away from your credibility.

Ok so how about a fun topic. Tonight the lottery is 212 Million dollars in Georgia. If you won, after taxes and cash payout you'd get about 70 million.

If this happened to you and if Belkin would sell his share of the team to you for that (he payed $75 million), I have 2 questions.

1. Would you buy his 30% stake in the hawks and become the primary owner?

2. Given the other owners would go along with whatever you said, what would you do as new primary owner?

I've been debating about posting this thread for days and I've been as guilty as anyone about this but I've got to get this out.

The Hawks are currently 34 and 26 (60 games into the season). This is the 13th best record in the NBA and 4th best in the eastern conference. 17 teams have a worse record.

This has been accomplished with arguably one of the bottom tier coaches in the league.

34 games missed by one member or another of the starting 5.

3 games where someone was injured early or played ill. So in only 23 of 60 games (38%) could we say the starting 5 was even present.

With an ownership mess hanging over the teams head and a 7 million dollar a year salary cap handicap anchor not playing (claxton).

Without a true center or really a true point guard.

With having played 6 more games on the road than at home.

With Childress running to Europe.

Maybe it's time everyone take a step back and give all our players a break. Maybe we should applaud Bibbs, Joe, Marvin, Horford and Smith. Yes we all want to win every game every night and that's possible with this group. There is no team they can't beat. But 2 years ago they finished 2007 with a 30 win, 52 loss record and finished 13th in the eastern conference.

Let's lighten up on calling for everyone's head. Next year alot is going to shake out. Someone will want Claxton and his insurance payments and expiring contract for 2010. Bibby will be getting a 4-7 million dollar pay cut. Childress will be back or his rights will be traded freeing up even more space. Instead of nitpicking our players and being so negative I think it's time to get behind this team. If they come together and continue to show improvement in their new offensive sets (see big guys getting majority of shots last night), this team I think actually can make hay in the second round this year. It's time to get behind them, all of them.

Last I looked the Wiz were leading.

The Hawks are still a year or two and more importantly a player or two away from being a serious factor come playoff time.

Here's what I'm liking. At this point in the game Horford has 9 shots, Josh and Marvin 8 each, Joe 6, Bibbs 7. Of the starting 5, The bigs have taken 25 of the first 38 shots. That's a recipe for success. It's much easier to rebound and shoot from the outside when you force the defense to collapse. Maybe Woody's been reading the boards but in all but 2 games since Joe was for 2 this has been the offensive formula.

This to me is way more important adding another player. This is playoff contender style basketball and it needs to be played during the year to be able to play it in the playoffs.

It's just like football where you pound the run to set up the pass. That's winning football and going inside first is winning basketball.

Thats not the sequence of events, that some of these posters seem to remember....

We sure look better, giving up more points and scoring less...with Smoove on the bench.

Ok. For all that said "we were better without Josh on the floor". Let me show you the + / - numbers for last night

Johnson -1

Bibby -11

Horford -4

Williams -1

Smith +2

Murray even

Pachulia +4

Evans +6

Those are you plus minus numbers for last night.

Given those numbers, your most effective players on the court, in order were Evans, Pachulia, Smith, Murray and (johnson, Williams).

yeah Phebe is his sister.

check out her player profile from Columbus State's site for a pic

http://csucougars.athleticsite.com/profile.asp?playerID=759

Thank you for that. It was really cool to read her bio. I think sometimes we all get caught up in the picture of the players we see on the court. I find it kind of cool to see them as real people. People with families, sisters, kids and such. Thanks again.

Josh wasn't with the team b/c his gf just had their baby

Is this legit? Like do you have a story reference?

If so then this answers alot of questions. Sometimes we forget he is a very young man and if this is his first kid and from a "girlfriend" not wife, he's probably dealing with alot. This is not an excuse by the way, but sometimes you just have to face reality. It's one of the pains of drafting these just out of high school guys. They really are just kids. If he would have gone to school like I think all these guys should, he'd be a rookie this year or a 5th year senior even.

I've got a different take though. I know my son when he hit that magical 13-14 age went from 20/20 vision to needing glasses almost overnight. The eye doctor said this is real common especially with men that when they hit their life changing stages (puberty, 21, 40ish etc) that their eyes go bad almost overnight. She said it's way more common with guys to have sudden vision changes. I was watching him about 5 games ago and he reminded me alot of what my son was like before we got him glasses. Still a real good athlete but extremely inconsistent (it was his hitting that went south in like just a couple of months). I was actually wondering if maybe he was having vision issues and that was the reason for the extreme drop in free throw percentage and his quick change playing alot more inside (when his fg% went up in January). But his reaction time and court vision sure seem to have dropped off around the same time.

In my humble opinion, the real problem with the Josh Smith on Matt Harpring flagrant foul is it came about 7 games too late. The Hawks have lacked a fire the last month. A "Get the hell away from my rim" arrogance. We've all seen it. Some chump on the playground beats a better player off the dribble and the shocked D let's him get a layup. The guy gets a big head and then boom, the better player sends the chumps next shot across court and into the stands. On the next play he runs him over on his way to the basket telling that kid to "GET OFF MY COURT. I OWN THIS!"

Unfortunately, I don't think Josh's foul was intentional.

Where is that fire we saw last year when Zaza nosed up Garnett? Where is that pride? Good Grief, Lamar Odom was going for 20 rebounds and showboating and nobody put him on his back. Nobody. Not Josh, not Marvin, not Zaza, not Horford and certainly not Joe. No vet, no rookie.

Anyone who's played playground ball knows that if you get out of hand on the wrong court, someone is bodychecking you into pole. When someone starts going off on the offensive end, you set a hard screen on him on the other end of the floor. You knock that punk down.

It's not dirty basketball, it's how men play the game. I miss Kevin Willis. Nobody would have showboated around the rim when Kevin was our enforcer.

Why when Joe came back, we reverted to isolation sets I'll never understand. Our offense should be flowing through Bibby, penetration and pick and roll with our 2 forwards. If I were Marvin and Josh, I'd get lost in this offense too. I can guarantee you that if Phil Jackson or Larry Brown took over this team tomorrow, we would not be running isolation sets 30 times a game for Joe. If Doug Collins were the coach of this team, I'm not even sure Horford would start. If Jerry Sloan were our coach, things would be much much different. I'm not even sure Josh Smith would still be in town if Jerry Sloan were our coach.

Coaching is everything. Ask yourself this. Would we be running ISO for Joe 30 times a game if Lenny Wilkens were back running the Hawks? Ask yourself what our offense would look like if Lenny Wilkens were our coach?

Piggybacking on my previous statement. Please read this. http://www.nba.com/history/players/wilkens_bio.html

Then ask yourself if "Mike Woodson" is the guy for the job.

I familiar with 1-2-2 zone. I've never heard it referred to as the 4-1. Regardless my point was Joe draws the double team. Maybe not so much this year, but he draws it. No movement is our real offensive issue. I don't see how any one can say it is mostly on Joe.

now that I can agree with. And that was my whole point. Someone needs to step up here and recognize the issue. That person should be Woody or as team captain, Joe. I mean they had to go into the film room at some point and at least say, "how can we do this better?".

Interestingly, while jumping around I found this off of wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_defense

Attacking a zone defense

While strategies for countering zone defenses vary and often depend on the strengths and weaknesses of both the offensive and defensive teams, there are some general principles that are typically used by offensive teams when facing a zone.

Many popular zones (such as the 2-3 and 1-2-2) have a gap in the middle of the lane. Getting the ball in this area can be very effective because the defense is often forced to "collapse" on the ball handler, freeing up other players for open shots. To exploit this gap, many teams assign a forward to operate in the high post area near the free throw line to catch and distribute the ball. A forward in the high post area can also set screens on the players at the top of the zone to allow penetration by the guards.

Quick passing is an important element of attacking any zone. The defense will shift as the ball moves, but if the offense can move the ball faster than the defense can react, open shots can result. Quick passing against a zone often leads to open three-point shots, and zone defenses are less effective against teams with good three-point shooters.

Dribble penetration is very effective in breaking down a zone. If a guard can dribble into the gaps in the zone, multiple defenders must converge on the ball. The ball handler can then often pass to an open teammate for a shot. This strategy illustrates why preventing dribble penetration is important in playing an effective zone defense.

Maybe someone should email that to Woody too. In the one play we discussed, we talked about where Josh was, and where Joe set up. Funny how little things can break this up.

Now for the word Doubleteam, let me try arguing this better. To me a tradional double team is a commitment by 2 players to guard one guy to either deny him the ball or guard him when he has it. The argument was about Joe being double teamed all the time and no one on the hawks beside him is. This is pure folly. When Josh, Marvin drive to the hoop, does only one opponent ever try to stop them. No, multiple players collapse and try to block the shot, strip the ball on the drive or step up to take the charge. This is as much a "double team" as Joe running into a trap. But coaches in the league are not scheming that it's a better philosophy to not guard Marvin at all and permanently send his man on Joe. My point being that the Hawks are bringing alot of this on themselves by

A. Not being creative enough offensively

B. Not playing to their strengths

When Joe was out for 2 games, the Hawks had to get their points somewhere. In the first game against Minnesota, they greatly altered their offense. They took Josh Smith or Marvin Williams out of the high wing and instead moved them to the high post and played pick and roll or penetration and hit the cutter basketball utilizing their superior athleticism. Each player attempted 13 shots that game and drew 22 Free Throw attempts. They combined for 42 points. More importantly they got Bibby open look after open look and he scored 24 on only 15 shots. In the next game at Charlotte they got Marvin 15 shots, Smith 13 and Bibby 13. (43 total) using the same offensive strategy. The 3 of them combined for 53 points and 30 Free Throw attempts and this time got more people involved for a more balanced scoring attack. My point being is that with Joe, our "star" out, the Hawks were forced to be more creative offensively and use their talents more to their advantage. This led to less transition baskets for our opponents too and that in itself is huge. And note to Woody, WE WON BOTH OF THOSE GAMES!!!

Why when Joe came back, we reverted to isolation sets I'll never understand. Our offense should be flowing through Bibby, penetration and pick and roll with our 2 forwards. If I were Marvin and Josh, I'd get lost in this offense too. I can guarantee you that if Phil Jackson or Larry Brown took over this team tomorrow, we would not be running isolation sets 30 times a game for Joe. If Doug Collins were the coach of this team, I'm not even sure Horford would start. If Jerry Sloan were our coach, things would be much much different. I'm not even sure Josh Smith would still be in town if Jerry Sloan were our coach.

Coaching is everything. Ask yourself this. Would we be running ISO for Joe 30 times a game if Lenny Wilkens were back running the Hawks? Ask yourself what our offense would look like if Lenny Wilkens were our coach?

here is a website that refers to the 4-1 as the 1-2-2 which is probably it's most common name. The 4-1 is a basically dumbed down highschool defense which is what Portland was in. Go back and watch the video.

The 4-1 is used basically to either defend ISO or when you're aren't very familiar with your opponent and want to test the waters before you make adjustments for your rotation. 1-2-2 which is what this site shows is the 4-1 but with the rotations and responsibilities set.

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/122zonedefense.html

OMG I read farther down and the exact play I described earlier is written out here. It's basketball for dummies. Quick someone email this link to Woody.

Whatever buddy. You find me any coach who says you don't trap/double in a zone. Then find me a reputable almanac or coach who teaches the "4-1 zone" Ha ha. You truly are a cartoon Troy

here is a website that refers to the 4-1 as the 1-2-2 which is probably it's most common name. The 4-1 is a basically dumbed down highschool defense which is what Portland was in. Go back and watch the video.

The 4-1 is used basically to either defend ISO or when you're aren't very familiar with your opponent and want to test the waters before you make adjustments for your rotation. 1-2-2 which is what this site shows is the 4-1 but with the rotations and responsibilities set.

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/122zonedefense.html

I heard Booze might be comin back tonight? Either way Utah is a tough place to win. We can't start off with the whole lazy Hawks routine tonight.

Oye I need an aspirin. Josh is 0-6 in the first quarter from the free throw line.

They need to get the man some help....it's in his head now.

Wow. Okay. Do you even know what a Double Team is? A double team is simply when two players defend one player. A trap is a double team. Those clips you showed were double teams. As were the examples on the clips I showed. If I dribble towards you and you leave your man to defend me, even after I retreat back to the 3 point line, you have double teamed me. My God man it's not that hard.

Ok let me try it this way. Portland was in a 4-1 zone. No one was guarding a man, but only guarding the Man in his zone. in a 4 - 1 zone, the 4 is the 4 corners of the lane, the 1 is the area north of the lane/or the one person guarding the point.

In this setup Joe was acting as Point. The 1 was guarding Joe. When Joe dribbled into the 2 zone, defender 2 collapsed to defend his zone but made a point to allow no one in his zone behind him. He chased Joe out of his zone...defended his zone...This is why Joe retreated as he did....he left the zone and the player left. It's not a double team, it's a zone defense. Now here is where the coaching should have come in. When the 2 defender chased Joe out of the zone, it opened up an opportunity for Josh Smith to duck in behind this defender and cut. Josh never made a move. Not because he was "hanging around the 3 point line"....no it's because the play was designed for Joe to beat the zone. This play shows not only Joe's lack of a left hand but also Woody's lack of coaching. This should have been schemed on how to beat this zone. It can't possibly be the first time portland used it all year.

For starters...in the 4-1 zone the point needs to pick a zone corner....Joe started middle top of the key...he didn't give himself enough room to work. If Joe would have started left top of the key he could have driven right and rolled middle, but no he started middle and his drive right put him outside the lane and into the defender. If he had pulled the defender into the lane by setting up right he could have easily rotated left side and the defender would have been caught in an illegal defense. This is coaching pure and simple. Or if Joe wanted to stay middle right of the lane he could do that too but he needed to be farther right and drive right of the zone 2 defender and therefore given Josh Smith the ability to slip behind the zone causing a 2 on 1 in the low right post. Again this is coaching. The coaching put the onus on Johnson as a scorer, not a playmaker from the point position.

But you're right, I obviously have no F'ing clue what I'm talking about. How about instead we just quote the comment from 8th poster on that video.

TKDCats312 (1 month ago) Show Hide +1 Marked as spam Reply No... I mean... You could even listen to the announcer for this. Roy pushed Johnson over to Aldridge intentionally for the help in defense to maybe get a steal. This was great hustle defense and I'm proud there's finally a superstar shooting guard in the league that actually plays it.

http://en.mimi.hu/basketball/double_team.html

Those are double teams. The problem is Joe never gives up his dribble so than can complete the double team. I wonder sometimes how many people on this board have truly played basketball. Ha ha. I tell you what Campster. Show me this elusive real double team.

http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-do-a-Doub...-Drill-23504459

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/971594/lebro...he_double_team/

Jordan getting a real double team. Watch the whole video...about a quarter of the way in they show Michael being Doubled away from the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5auPSMaD3vE

Kobe doubled up in the corner

and you're right...you make me wonder who here has watched basketball if you call a player dribbling into a second defender who is clearly guarding someone else, a double team. I mean seriously. In that first clip they are playing a freaking Zone. how do you say it's a double team when Portland was in a Zone defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jLpd2q9Pwo

against Portland. Notice the double that forces Joe's retreat back from the paint.

against the Spurs. A few doubles and then they don't double and Joe goes crazy.

against Boston. Notice the big men aren't doubling. Joe goes nuts.

Not a real double team in any of those clips. Closest thing was on a drive in the first clip a wing defender closed the lane...that's not a double team. That's Joe driving strong hand into a different defender (see my previous post).

Teams are actively scouting us. I'm sure they aren't doubling as much now that Joe is not shooting well and Bibby has been doing well. When Joe catches fire again I'm sure we will see the return of the quick double team. I don't think you can make the case that Joe hasn't been double teamed much over the last couple years. Maybe the last month.

Since someone stated "basketball 101", let me throw my 2 cents in. What is happening to Joe is a defensive philosophy and is not a traditional double team. Joe is a strong right handed player and is not as adept driving with his left. He can cross you over, but not drive it on you left handed like alot of guards. It's just a left handed speed thing. So teams are taking the cross over away by d'ing up on his left hand and making him drive right and stack D inside their defenders so he can't go front to the basket and keeps drifting to his strong hand...then the trap comes when he runs out of real estate to his right. Alot of his assists come when the double is late he can pass over the coming doubles hands. But make no mistake...he isn't being Doubled, he's being corner trapped by inviting him to drift to the strong hand.

The problem with drifting to the strong hand is that your body constantly drifts farther from the open floor and you have to pass across your body to get out of the trap. It's a scheme guys and he hasn't overcome it or been coached out of it.

I wish that Joe would drop 40 just to shut this guy up. Ive been following him and almost all off his posts are about how bad Joe is. Comments against one player constantly get really old and make hawksquawk less enjoyable. :sad:

Yeah I wish Joe would drop 40 too. Hell from Joe nowadays I'd take 40% from the floor. He hasn't dropped 40 or 40% much in the last 30 games. Here it is. The shooting % for Joe Johnson every game since December 17.

37.5, 40, 36.4, 34.8, 51.6, 45.8, 42.9, 31.3, 43.8, 29.4, 33.3, 38.9, 19.1, 47.1, 45.0, 47.6, 27.8, 27.3, 25.0, 46.7, 33.3, 64.7, 34.8, 40, 56.3, 62.5, 35.3, 36.8, 31.8

That's the last 30 games. 2 dnp's, 11 games where he shot over 40%. 17 he shot under 40%. raise the bar to 50%. Joe only shot 50% 4 times in his last 30 games. However he hoisted up 15 or more shots in all but 2 of the games he played in. You can't win that way.

BenHillBoy has a point here.

And by the way...in that 30 game span Joe has dropped 40 points...once.

Wasn't Josh Smith arguably the teams most effective player for the month of January?

Yes but that doesn't mean you won't get people hating on him daily. So just for kicks let's have some fun. Let's try from NBA.com, this link http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Fanta...p;statType=FSPI

That's a composite of fantasy value for all players in the eastern conference in the month of January. It's a pretty damn good indicator of how much somebody showed up for their team.

Hawks on the list.

Mike Bibby - 17th overall

Josh Smith - 30th

Joe Johnson - 38th

Marvin Williams - 39th

Flip Murray - 43rd

Zaza Pachulia - 83rd

Maurice Evans - 88th

Al Horford - 108th

Ok what does this mean. Well first there are only 15 teams in the Eastern conference and our best payer fantasy wise is 2 spots down from last of group 1 (breaking these into 15 player group segments). Josh Smith is then last in group 2. Our team leader and supposed best player is 3rd on the team and only mid pack at 38. having a 4th and 5th player in the mix of group 3 makes up the difference some but then we don't have another player in till group 6 so it again balances out.

Very simply, this shows a total lack of offensive creativity that generates game stats....like FG%, assists.

I say you can't give Woody credit for our team improvement the last few years. I say we've improved despite him. In the last 2 years we've added 4 of the 8 people on that list. We have the talent to be better but not the scheme.