thecampster

http://www.ajc.com/services/content/sports...=7&cxcat=21

No big deal here except it seems to clear a roster spot. Any ideas? or is this a just to get the kid some reps move.

This is a really huge win.

Yeah we used to call these morale wins. When you've been up and down and aren't as confident as you could be and then boom. You beat a good team in their building and put them one more game farther behind you.

Interesting thing is that with the injury to Nelson in Orlando every win is huge. I don't think we catch Orlando but I would like to see us close the gap and make them have to play harder down the stretch and not just coast to the 3rd seed. Same with the other teams in front of us. I want them all 1 game apart with 2 to play. Make them earn their seed and not be fully rested going into the post season.

You act like he's never done anything like that before.

Pretty close. Alot of his moves seem very random or he seems outcoached alot (IE the iso Joe with 5 minutes cuz I'm not sure what else to do thing). This at least seems like he thought it out well in advance.

Weird....Woody actually thought something out. With 43 seconds left he sub'd in Mo Evans for Josh. Realizing Josh's struggles at the line he subbed in Evans to get a FT shooter in the game thinking detroit would foul Smith. Then on the Defensive posession he resub'd.

And after Detroit made a quick 2 on their possession (15.9 seconds left) he takes Josh out and Mo back in for the Offensive possession.

Weird....Woody actually thought something out. With 43 seconds left he sub'd in Mo Evans for Josh. Realizing Josh's struggles at the line he subbed in Evans to get a FT shooter in the game thinking detroit would foul Smith. Then on the Defensive posession he resub'd.

That is the order I rank these as well.

For Marvin to be a secondary scorer or to have a bigger role in the offense, that is primarily on Woodson and how he draws up the offense.

For Marvin to be a lead scorer, that is primarily on him to be more assertive. He should also be more aggressive regardless because it would help the team.

The distributors part is a small factor in my mind. That is really more of a by-product of offensive design more than our ballhandlers simply making bad passes or not seeing Marvin.

Hey Dolfan let me tag on to your ordering. Let's pretend for a minute the NBA god's smiled on us and we got a new coach. I'll throw out Doug Collins name as an example (He's a bigger fan of big men score, small men score when the big men can't). If Doug Collins was our coach (or any bigs friendly coach) how would this affect Marvin's nightly stat line?

If you watched the game last night you could see it was bothering him. they panned to him several times after missed foul shots and it didn't take a lip reader to see he was cussing constantly.

It's called the yips...every player gets the yips. It gets in your head and you make minor corrections major. He'll hit a streak of 4 or 5 in a row when he isn't thinking about and he'll return to form. He's never been good at it but will be back to 70% plus at some point.

when you a coach who is stupid and players with no heart who are stupid. entitled fools who have never worked for anything. only "athletic" ability. no moxie. we need a larry bird or a kevin mchale or a steve nash. notice anything similar about those players?

Uhm all 3 of their 1st names contain only 5 letters. I'm really hoping that is where you were going with that and not playing the race card....Please don't tell me that is what you were doing?

Labeling our players as "Athletic but stupid" and then asking if we notice a similarity in the 3 white players you mention. Please god don't tell me you've been drinking so much you went down that road?

disgraceful.

Pop quiz....

Between Marvin and Josh the 2 of them have 54 points on 23 of 34 shooting with 19 rebounds, 5 steals, 3 blocks and 3 assists with over a minute left to play....The hawks are winners or losers?

Anyone who's seen me on this board knows I'm the biggest Josh Smith guy around...but OMG 1 of 8 from the free throw line....he's having a really good game but 12.5% on free throws?

and take away Josh's stupidly bad FT shooting night and we are still only 10 of 17 for the rest of the team. The rest of the team is 58.8% at this point...how do you expect to win in the NBA and leave 14 points on the free throw line. Wasn't Mark Price brought in to help in this area?

The Knicks are 28th in the league in offensive rebounding but they have 11 offensive rebounds through 3 quarters.

the Hawks are 8-19 from the line.

Anyone who's seen me on this board knows I'm the biggest Josh Smith guy around...but OMG 1 of 8 from the free throw line....he's having a really good game but 12.5% on free throws?

Nique just said that we were running the motion offense. I must have missed it.

Acie Law has played 5 minutes tonight. Stat line. 0 points, 0 assists, 0 anything.

Nice job. Now my question is...since all 4 players were either a 3 or a 4...would you be happy if Josh ended up like any and or all of them.

Would you take any of these 4 starting at 24 years old on your team for the next 5 years?

here is the comparison. The average stats for these 4 at age 24 is:

16.4 ppg / 6.975 rpg / 2.95 apg / 1.325 Stlpg / 1.325 bpg / 2.23 TO

Here is Josh's numbers this year at age 23:

16.1 ppg / 7.5 rpg / 2.7 apg / 1.4 stlpg / 1.5 bpg / 2.7 to

Almost the exact same as the average of 24 year old pippen, grant, worthy and mchale.

Scottie Pippen.

Horace Grant.

James Worthy. Tom Chambers had similar numbers, by the way.

Kevin McHale

Nice job. Now my question is...since all 4 players were either a 3 or a 4...would you be happy if Josh ended up like any and or all of them.

Would you take any of these 4 starting at 24 years old on your team for the next 5 years?

I'm going Lamar Odom, T. Prince, R. Wallace, and Scottie Pippen. (Not in order, that would be way to hard fro me).

Robert Horry as a wild card

you got 1.

I'm hoping this is fun for you guys and something to think about. What I want you to do is name the player. These are players Josh compares favorably to statistically at his age.

Player 1. At 24 years old he started all 82 games and played 38.4 minutes a game. He scored 16.5 points a game, grabbed 6.7 rebounds, had 5.4 assists, 2.6 steals, 1.2 blocks and turned the ball over 3.39 times a game.

Player 2. At 24 years old he started 80 games and played 34.4 minutes a game. he scored 13.4 points a game, grabbed 7.9 rebounds, had 2.8 assists, 1.2 steals and 1 block while turning the ball over 1.38 times a game.

Player 3. At 24 years old this player started 76 of 80 games for his team and played 33.7 minutes a game. He scored 17.6 ppg, had 6.5 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.1 steal and .8 blocks while comminting 2.48 turnovers.

Player 4. The final player. At 24 years old this player only started 33 of 82 games for his team while playing 28.4 minutes. He scored 13.6 ppg, grabbed 6.8 rebounds, had 1.1 assists, .4 steals, 2.3 blocks while turning the ball over 1.67 times.

Now to make the game easier, what did they all have in common. All went to college. All won an NBA championship and at 24 all were older than Smooth is now.

I love the idea of getting Hinrich but Thomas wouldn't play much for us (basically an inferior version of Josh Smith) and the idea of watching the Bibby/Gordon backcourt play defense....whew.

I don't see how that moves the ball for us.

Because Gordon gets his own shot better than Johnson and draws more fouls. And Tyrus Thomas is only like Smith in that he blocks shots. He's a project in my eyes that could easily be developed by a big man coach but is a much better big man option than Morris, Gardner, etc

This is shift in thinking on the starting 5 trade and an upgrade on the backups...this could easily make up a 10 deep team. Second unit would be

Hinrich, Murray, Evans, Thomas, Pachulia

Incoming Players

Tyrus Thomas

6-8 PF from LSU

8.5 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 0.9 apg in 23.9 minutes

Ben Gordon

6-3 SG / PG from Connecticut

20.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 3.7 apg in 36.2 minutes

Kirk Hinrich

6-3 PG from Kansas

9.0 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 4.5 apg in 26.6 minutes

Outgoing Players

Speedy Claxton

5-11 PG from Hofstra

No games yet played in 2008-2009

Joe Johnson

6-7 SG from Arkansas

21.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 6.1 apg in 39.9 minutes

Try this instead...contingent on resigning Gordon. Bulls get cap flexibility and Johnson we get a better overall backcourt adding hinrich as a backup

If I see those douchebags jumping in the pool one more time I will go completely insane. Is there any way we can get sprite to send Sportsouth a NEW ad? That's two straight years of seeing that thing 20 plus times a game. And with the amount of dumbass Woodson timeouts we really go to commercial break a lot more than most teams I'm sure. "Hey, we're on a run and looking strong out there....TIMEOUT fellas...let's cool off...and while we're at it...let's cool off by drinking sprite and jumping in a pool to a really awful song"...

Sorry, I just needed to vent...

LMAO I thought I was the only one. I thought it was a pretty cool idea the first 87 times I saw it. Now I just forward through it until like last night I was watching live and discovered the stupid FF button doesn't work on real T.V.

Oh hell let me throw my 2 cents in. I watched the game last night (live for a change..didnt' have to tivo it). There are 2 reasons I feel Smoove reverted to being a jump shooter in the final few minutes.

Reason 1, no one else on the floor was hitting jumpers. Bibby and JJ were a combined 7 of 33 from the field last night. or for you math geeks 21.2 %. Statistically he was a better choice (ya I know that's sad).

But the 2nd and much bigger reason was a lack of a police in Phillips last night as evidenced by the thug muggings. 3 different Hawks in a 7 minute period walked away grabbing their heads after getting whacked. The most flagrant of which was O'neal literally grabbing Smooth on a drive and spinning him horizontal to the floor (amazingly the ball went in the basket). But 2 of the last 5 shots Josh took in the game were post ups for layups and he was fouled (no call) on both. Watch the last 10 minutes to see but he got a hand in the back on both...and a slap on the wrist on 1 of the 2. It became a thug fest the last 10 minutes as Phoenix had no other answer to our penetration. Think about the Marvin Williams drive where he got body checked by O'neal to the floor and the foul went to the other guy guarding him. Anyone else see that? O'neal went up for a block but was going more lateral than vertical and slammed into Marvin. No foul on Shaq. Honestly the one where he took Josh out of the air would have been a flagrant if it would have been a scrub center on a star like lebron, dwade or kobe.

I think Josh was just trying option 2 in shooting the 2 jumpers since nothing short of a police report was gonna be needed to get a foul called in the last 5 minutes.

I have noticed this and it bothers me sometimes... He has done this a little every year, but this year it's more than usuall... It doesn't happen often enough that it makes me furious, but sometimes it's a little confusing to see him not contest... my guess is he doesn't want to give up good rebounding position.

We rather than go all ballistic like I have been all week (you know he did go for 22/14/3 yesterday) I'll instead maybe take this discussion a different direction. Maybe this injury was a good thing for smooth. Sure he can't jump right now like he used to and that is how he was used to scoring, on pure athleticism. I've coached youth sports for about 15 years and there are always kids at 12 years old that dominate everyone else based purely on being the first kid to grow facial hair. Then as that kid gets older and the other kids grow up, he is unable to adapt as he never learned the small details and skills needed to excell.

Maybe this offensive improvement we are seeing in Josh is due to him "having" to play closer to the floor. Maybe his defense is currently struggling do to him not having lift but has it forced Smooth to finally learn some of those little skills that will in the end make him a better rebounder, passer, back to the basket player and teammate.

Personally I'm willing to give up 3 months or so of Josh like defense if the overall end result is him seeing more to basketball than being the highest leaper with the longest arms on the floor.

Agreed, I thought this was a funny post. I also like that tonegully just doesn't have it in him to give real props.

Sup crimedog and thanks. I mean i spent like 10 or 15 minutes writing that and I'm glad someone is giving me my due. You know to put this in to perspective about how i feel about the vibe I get on people about Joe, Josh and Marvin I wanted to post one more thing. Their salaries. for the whole team that is. Forget the number, see it as "this is what they get paid in relation to each other, and compare that to what they bring to the floor compared to each other.

Bibby 15.225 million

Johnson 14.233 million

Smith 10 million

Claxton 5.758 million

Williams 5.636 million

Horford 4.027 million

Pachulia 4 million

Evans 2.5 million

Law 2.072 million

Murray 1.5 million

Morris .798 million

Jones .798 million

Gardner .712 million

West .712 million

Hunter .442 million

Total 68 million

When you consider Marvin is making almost a 3rd as much as JJ or Bibby, is criticizing his performance to the level we do really valid. When you see that Josh is making 10 and Bibby and Johnson are each making around 14 - 15 and given the numbers in this thread is it more fair to question Josh as a Hawk or the people we're paying the most. They are getting paid to perform...compensation vs. impact. Josh is 14.7% of the team salary. Bibby is 22.39 % and Johnson is 20.9. Marvin is 8.29 %. So it stands to reason that statistically we're expecting them to produce 23.9 and 20.9 percent of the Offensive and Defensive impact. Using a fairly complicated formula based off fantasy numbers where points =1, rebounds = 1, assists, steals, blocks =2, turnovers = -2 and then factor in shooting percentage (because missing a shot is no different than a turnover. The law of averages say that if a player shoots 50% from 2 point land than each shot =1 point...so if a player misses more than 50% of the time it's the same as a turnover. We'd get an impact formula that looks like this for Joe (22.0 + 4.5 + 12.2 + 2 + .8 - 4.6 - 2.4) = 34.5. This is Joe's impact number.

The Hawks as a whole score 98 ppg, get 40.3 rebounds, get 21.6 assists, 6.9 steals, 4.9 blocks, 12.5 TO and miss 3.35 more shots than 50%. This makes the hawks base formula (98 + 40.3 + 43.2 + 13.8 + 9.8 - 25 - 6.70) = 173.4.

Josh Smith by comparison, his impact formula is (15.7 + 6.8 + 5.2 + 3.0 + 3.0 - 5.2 - .4) = 28.1

Bibby (16 + 3.6 + 10.6 +2.4 + .4 - 3.0 - 1.3) = 28.7

Marvin (13.4 + 6.1 + 3 + 1.8 + 1.4 - 2.4 - .7) = 22.6

So Joe is 34.5/173.4 = 19.896 percent positive impact.

Josh is 28.1/173.4 = 16.2 percent positive impact

Bibby is 28.7/173.4 = 16.55 percent positive impact

Marvin is 22.6/173.4 = 13.03 percent positive impact

Ok now think about what they make compared. Take what they were expected to impact and divide it by their actual impact and you should get your "living up to expectations quotient".

Bibby - 16.55 / 22.39 = 73.9 % living up to salary expectations

Joe - 19.896 / 20.9 = 95.2% living up to salary expectations

Josh - 16.2 / 14.7 = 110.2% living up to salary expectations

Marvin - 13.03 / 8.29 = 157.2% living up to salary expectations

This is really why i say the criticism of Josh and most certainly to this point Marvin isn't warranted and is harsh. But per this very simple formula that would be used by most every bean counter at any company in america, Bibby is not living up to his salary and Joe is close. Basketball least we forget is a business and we pay these guys to perform. (FYI keep in mind this formula was slightly weighted in favor of Mike and Joe as I counted Assists more heavily than rebounds).

I wish you made these threads for ALL his games this year. Smoove is still not a smart ballplayer, but i blame Woody for that though.

Smoove did have a good game, against a team missing 3 starters and on a 11 game losing streak. I think ill go to the YMCA and ball on some 8th graders and post my stats up here.

yeah true, but against those same 8th graders, Joe was mysteriously off again...but he did shoot 47% and Bibby shot 30%

and they did managed to put Marvin in foul trouble.

But Ok...let's post one for the year. Let's compare stats and see just how Josh has done for the year compared to say Joe.

Player-----PPG----FG%--Shots--Assist----REB----Stl----Blk---TO----MPG

Joe--------22.0---43.5-----18.8---6.1-------4.5----1.0-----.4---2.3--39.36

Josh------15.7----47.8-----12.2---2.6--------6.8----1.5----1.5--2.6--35.06

So let's see....Josh is scoring 6.3 less points a game but taking 6.6 less shots. Josh is getting 3.5 less assists but is grabbing 1.7 more rebounds, getting .5 more steals, 1.1 more blocks. He's turning the ball over .3 more times a game (that's less than 1 turnover more every 3 games) while playing 4.3 less minutes....hmm...why the minutes disparity I wonder. Oh that's right, the 4th game of the year Josh got hurt after playing only 11 minutes and scoring only 6 points...so it's throwing the numbers off a little. and he was limited in 2 of the first 5 starts back from injury to 24 and 28 minutes also throwing off those stats a little. Hmm...I wonder what the 48min per comparisons look like this year. Let's do that as that will give us a better idea of impact.

Player---points---shots---reb-----assist-----stl----blk---turnover

Joe-------25.5-----21.3---5.5------7.4--------1.24--.45----2.8

Josh-----23.3-----18.9---9.3-------3.6-------2.05--2.05---3.6

So compare the per 48 stats and Joe scores 1.8 more points but takes 2.4 more shots to do it, gets 3.8 less rebounds while dishing out 3.8 more assists but get .81 less steals and 1.6 less blocks but at least turns the ball over .8 times less per 48 minutes.

That's for the season. I can easily argue with these stats that your criticism of Josh, although on some points could be technically valid, it's extremely harsh. And that's the point. Your criticism of him is extremely harsh in comparison to the other people on the team when you consider by these stats he's statistically equivalent or better as a whole player.

Damn it guys did you see the game against the Clippers last night. 4 turnovers and 2 missed free throws.

Dang it Josh what were you thinking? Yeah sure I know what you're gonna say, "Hey camp lay off, I shot 67% from the field with 26 points. Shot 75% on free throws and grabbed 8 rebounds had 3 steals and blocked a shot. Come on man, lighten up."

Well Josh I've had it with your lackidasical attitude! If you wanna settle for 26 points while missing 33% of the time then be my guest. I've had it with you spoiled 6'9" jump out of the building atheletes that think just because the other guys on the court are professionals trying hard to win that gives you an excuse to turn the ball over 4 times. Grow up Josh. Who was even guarding you on those 2 free throws huh? Not a hand in your face and you miss 2 freebies.

And 1 blocked shot. You think that's really enough. You average 2.8 last year and unless i start seeing that again you're riding the pine. Seriously, unless you start living up to your potential and scoring 40 points a night and not shooting anything but layups and dunks, grabbing 18 rebounds and improve on last season by up'ing your blocks per game to 4, I don't wanna hear it. You were after all the 17th pick in the draft...that's almost a lottery selection.

You're satisfied with 3 steals? L.A. had 90 possessions last night. 90!!! You're telling me you can't steal the ball just 10 percent of the time. It's all I'm asking man, a 10% effort. I wanna see 9 steals next game or so help me I'm throwing away all your trading cards you selfish, high ankle sprain toting, slam dunk champion wannabee. Let me lay it straight. You stole the ball 3 times and blocked one shot. You turned it over 4 times... That's a tie im my book and means one more mistake and you coulda "loss" us the game. If Bibby hadn't made 3 of his 10 shots, we coulda been in serious trouble....he bailed you out big time man.

Lastly the most disturbing thing about your stat line last night "0" assists. What are you thinking....you think just because you shoot 67% from the field that no one else wants a turn. You too good to kick it up top and let someone else try? When you see that open 10 footer next time, I want you to think long and hard about what you're gonna do. Should you shoot the open 10 foot jumper or pass to a teammate 25 feet from the basket. Are you or aren't you a team player? Zaza Pachulia only got to shoot the ball 3 times last night you ball hog. It's no wonder he only scored 3 points with you dominating the ball like that. You had Marvin Williams so frustrated he got 5 fouls (He had to hit someone. Unlike you he is a team player and wouldn't take it out on a teammate). Because of you Joe Johnson only hit 1 3 pointer last night. He only got 5 shots at it. If you aren't gonna let him keep shooting it from out there, how is he ever supposed to find his sights again. You are so "all about Josh".

You think just because you went for 20 or more points in 7 of the last 10 games that makes you an offensive weapon? You think that's a trend? O please. We pay you block shots and rebound and you should only be shooting after catching an alleyoop.

I'm sure there are plenty of things I missed in my anger at you cuz I could barely watch. You just realized if you keep scoring 26 points a game you might just lose yourself a fan.

Campster are you serious...... JSmoove simply doesn't get it.... I don't see any improvement in his overall game at all..... I question his work ethic... Okay yeah, he got injured ... I will give you that........ But when you look at the way he approaches each game..... He never try's to impose his will on a team....... He show's a glimpse of his true ability....but many times only when he's pissed off.... or when someone has given him a hard foul in a earlier play.... Many times he gets caught up in one on one battles... that he seldom wins.... his basketball IQ isn't the greatest..... If he hits his first shot from the perimeter .. its going to be a long night..... If anything I see regression in his game from last season.....

Everyone says he's young..... so what ....... we are paying him millions to do what ...... produce..... the D-league is for players that need to develop their skills.......

Josh has to look himself in the mirror and ask himself am I putting in the work to become the best player I can be...........

Look at Dwight Howard, Amare' Stoudemire, and Chris Bosh (1 yr at GT).... Does anyone remember how small and frail Chris Bosh was his rookie season..... All of these players have improved over the past years...... Josh still looks like a rookie most nights.......

Coaching has a major role in his failure to progress his game, but Josh has to take it upon himself to get better, much better.

You're damn skippy I'm serious. I'm not talking about your opinions on his IQ, or what shot's he should be taking. Every player in the league....even Jordan had detractors that said "If he just did this he could be so much better". Remember Shaq in his prime. Legitimately the scariest player in the NBA night in and Night out but every time you turned around someone complained about his free throw shooting. They complained so much he practiced and tweaked himself into shoooting worse. yes people were complaining about a guy that was going for 30 and 13 a night. What did shaq do...he bolted Orlando. you need to take an even harder look in the mirror and decide if you are whining because you get jumped over by every lefty in the gym. I don't know what your issue with him is. do you expect him to be perfect, never make a turnover, never shoot a J. you can not play this game inside only. There is a reason there are 5 positions. My original point is simple. Over his last 6 games he's shooting 53 percent from the field and Joe Johnson is shooting under 35 percent and their turnover numbers are very similar. Why are you jumping all over Josh's shot choice and decision making when Joe is no better. For the month, statistically, Josh has been your best player. The fact you can't see that shows you have an agenda.

On the subject of the why Josh doesn't show up as a PF on the Yahoo board, you have 'qualified' marked. Choose show all players and choose the "F" option. The yahoo ranking allow for combo players so any player that plays as a F/C in their ranking will show in the PF rankings even if that player is a center. Click on the F options to show players that play only SF or PF and never slide down to the SG or up to the C positions. Josh is not a PF or an SF. He is a F. A tweaner and should be judged as such. He is too much of an atheletic wing to be a PF and too big to be a SF. He is a tweaner.

On the subject of why doesn't he take every ball to the hole. If you listened to last nights game Josh missed or was blocked in 3 of his last 5 shots. He had dish and roll working and the defense started to collapse on it. Even if the percentages are low, you have to shoot from the outside once in a while to keep the defense honest and vice versa. If you never go down low, then the defense gets right in the face of the jump shooters. You have to have balance.