thecampster

Let's talk about that last year Al was here. We went 48 and 34 with Horford that year. In the offseason, not too much changed. We sent out Jeff Teague and turned the offense over to Dennis Schröder (weakening the backup point position) and swapped in an aging Dwight Howard for Al Horford. We also added Taurean Prince on as a rookie, giving him real minutes. We acquired Ersan Illysova at the trade deadline. The Hawks finished 43-39 that year, dropping 5 games. If they lost both Teague and Horford (at the top of his game) replacing them with Jose Calderon and an aging Dwight. How do you reconcile them only going backward 5 games and still being over .500. Its well understood that at this point in his career, Dwight was fighting back injuries and mobility issues. I'm trying to see the logic gap.

You do realize in that 2014-15 season AL 'led' us in, he was 3rd in scoring and 2nd in rebounding? Also that he missed over 120 games the previous 3 seasons. The 'best' Hawk of all time missed a ton of time but took a 4% higher salary to ring chase. I think in this narrative loyalty needs to count for something.

Show me on the doll where I hurt you!

This is the spacing issue I talked about related to neither CC or OO being reliable shooters outside the paint and why Collins loss of outside shooting touch/loss of handles due to the finger affected us so much. There were large swaths of the floor that teams really didn't have to defend. It's why Collins had to go (at his salary) and why another move makes sense.

Further discussion on this just isn't in my bag of things I'm willing to shave years of my life over. But I'm going to do some highlighting here and try to just answer the questions. 2. Are you saying data isn't facts? and on point, you've on many occasions complimented me getting things right. For example, the breakdown of Cam's shooting mechanics. So this "I don't see basketball on your level thing" is an unprovable passive aggressive shot that holds zero weight in any debate. This is exactly the nonsense ad hominem attack people are talking about. Data is facts. Its one part of the story and typically a very big part of it. 3. " There is really nothing controversial about saying Al is the Goat Hawks. He's the most winningest Atlanta Hawk. He's had the most career success of any of our franchise players." What do you base that on? Let me try this stat. Al played 9 seasons with the Hawks and had a VORP rating of 21.2. Nique played 12 seasons as a Hawk with a VORP rating of 47.2. How do you reconcile less than 1/2 the VORP rating? Nique played in an era where you had to go through Jordan's Bulls, IT's Pistons and the Bird/Parrish/McHale Celtics to get to the ECF. Horford had to go through Lebron in an era of the weak East. Your argument though ignores some other pretty darn good Hawks. Pete Maravich played 4 seasons with the Hawks average 24/4/5. Trae Young is a career 25/9 in 5 seasons with the Hawks and came referee interference away from leading them to the NBA Finals. In Horford's 9 years with the Hawks, he only led them in win shares 4 times. The Hawks record while he was on the team was 411-311. Basically, they were a 46/36 team average while he was on the team. They broke 50 wins twice in 9 seasons. In the 9 year span between 1984 and 1993, Wilkins led his team in win shares 7 times. The team finishes 448-372, a slightly lower winning percentage (basically 45-37 team). The team broke 50 wins 4 times in that span. They played on similarly successful teams with Wilkins going to more all-star games, scoring at a much higher volume while dealing with constant double teams and dealing with some of the best basketball teams arguably in the history of the game. See, all of the above is statistical fact to back up my assertion. None of it is "you just don't understand....you don't have my BBIQ". I'm so done with this. When is training camp again?

and I apologize....didn't see you'd stated Nash....previous had Stockton on the brain. Hey see there....admitting I got it wrong.

1) You invited the disagreement. Most posters posted facts....stats...league opinion...fan opinion...membership on lists...membership in groups, etc. Citing Nique is in the hall is a fact. Citing Nique's career ppg is significantly higher than Al's is a fact. Citing Nique's number of all star games is a fact. None of those are attacks....period. Calling someone stupid or saying they don't understand enough to state a fact....is an attack. For the love of all that is holy....calling people dumb is an attack. Correcting opinion with facts is not an attack. 2. I'll say this once. I understand the game. I've been around it my whole life. Most of these people on this site have played high school ball, been a fan since they were tiny. They know enough to cite stats and know what they mean. 3. I'm sorry you didn't understand it. It made sense to me and a number of others would agree. Let me try an example. My wife says, "did you take out the trash?" She already knows my kid did it when I asked and I didn't do it. She has that knowledge in her pocket. But asking me so I can say "ya" meaning, I made sure it got done, is her way of being able to start a fight about me being lazy and not listening to her. It's a loaded question. If you start a debate with your mind made up and unwilling to hear me say, "I meant to say I made the kid do it", you'll never accept that as acceptable. Starting something ready to fight is a bad way to enter into anything. Especially if its controversial. See this past week. I stated that if he gets 30 minutes a game, JJ will lead the team in blocks. People jumped all over it. I knew it was controversial. I didn't take it as an attack. I said my peace, let them say theirs and now I'm just waiting for the season to begin to see how it plays out. This is the mature approach. I never questioned AHF's need for blue pills or told Spud to shave his legs. I said my peace, didn't hold any gotchas and let others say theirs. I didn't have to win it because it can't be won until they play a few games (like 82). 4. Disagreement with you does not mean people don't see the game clearly. Way back in the 80's, people saw the triangle offense as a gimmick. People were laughed at for suggesting it. Jackson won 6 rings with it (almost 8 ) and all of a sudden it was the best offense ever. Just because its your opinion, doesn't make it right. I respect you sticking to your guns, but open mind = happy life. 5. To the uninitiated, I hold 15 industry certs in IT and Cyber and a Master's in IS management with a focus in Information Security. This is what he's alluding to. However, I'd like to point out the majority of my work in this field is with statistical measurement and metrics. 6. Willing to see this in action. 7. "I just don't believe".....see that's an opinion. You can say that....that's fine. Everyone has a right to an opinion but, not every opinion is right. Having an opinion, does not make it fact. Back up those facts with some metrics, league surveys, coaches opinions, etc. Then you have an actual argument.

Let me say this and not directly at you but at everyone. 1) When you get on the internet, on a soap box, on a street corner, on tv and proclaim what you believe, you are inviting disagreement and different points of view. Open and honest debate requires anyone stating anything in a public forum to expect their point of view to be dissected and challenged. If you are not grown up enough to have your point of view challenged, maybe the internet is not for you. 2) When challenging another person's point of view, there is very little value in "I feel" or "I believe". To quote Ben Shapiro, "Facts don't care about your feelings". Feelings have value in any debate but they don't trump peer review and that does not trump facts. Value of insight goes in the order of Facts, group opinion, personal opinion. None of this means you have to change your mind, but it does mean that when the mob says they don't want to hear, it is best to listen to the mob. Mobs beat down feelings. 3) The worst place to start any discussion is with a loaded question. Never make a public statement ready to shout down anyone who disagrees. Opinion invites challenge. Holding back what you feel is valid only to bludgeon the participants with it after they answer your question is poor form. Present your case, invite discussion, try to woo the undecided but never try to hold back gotchas. That always backfires. 4) The easiest way to lose an argument is to dismiss facts. If someone presents stats, those are facts. The player did indeed average 15 rebounds / game in a season. Its an undeniable fact. Now you can question the weight of the fact but not the fact. No fact is stupid, its a fact. You can try to limit the importance of the fact but you can't discredit the fact. I play a pickup basketball game with 10 year olds. I score 50 points and grab 30 boards with 10 blocks and declare I'm the greatest player ever. It is fair game for you to say, but you didn't play NBA players. Its fair game to say, you went through puberty but they hadn't. But its not fair game to say those points don't count or those rebounds aren't real. They happened. They happened in the same gym as every other player. Feel free to tell me Shaq would have got 100 and 50 and state your case but if you try to discount fact (it happened) you lose every time because no one buys denial of basic truth. 5) Not all stats, all eras are the same but all eye tests are the same. My eye test has just as much value as your eye test. This is why these are losing arguments. Rebounds in the era of pace are different than rebounds in the era of 24 second pound ISO and shoot. Its fair to compare eras, its not fair to compare eye tests as having less weight than others. 6) Be willing to admit when you are wrong. "My Bad" is way more respected than doubling down. Always has been. Always will be. 7) If you don't have facts, it is best not to chime in until you do. This thread is a great example of this. A question was asked, facts were presented. The rebuttals did not include facts....argument lost no matter how anyone feels about it. If you can't rebut facts with facts, you cannot win an argument and you shouldn't want to.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I am tired of the Al love nonstop. He's not a Hawk, left the Hawks and will be out of the league in a year or two. The Stockton heresy though is next level crazy and others joining in I can only attribute to some new COVID variant causing mass delusion.

Do no remind my wife how I perform in the final 2 minutes!!! Low blow Gray Mule...Low blow!

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30186948-think-and-grow-rich

In this same thread, I argued the merit of drafting Trae against JJJ with @KB21. First, KB 95% nailed this draft with his evaluation and pretty much everyone on the board owes him an apology (not me, I was team KB). IMHO, I won this scrape but we both came out of it nudging toward the other's opinion and agreeing we wouldn't hate the other's pick. See Here: I was clear, 3 years before JJJ would have the impact KB was saying he'd have. Years 1-3, JJJ averaged 15 pts and 1.5 blocks. Year 4/5. More efficient 16.5 ppg but 2.3 and 3.0 blocks respectively. My point was Trae would be the starter and high impact from day 1. I felt there were some drawbacks to Luka (I still do) that are hard to overlook (pace, decision making). I can admit I was wrong on some of my assessment. Still happy we grabbed Trae and a pick. Hated how we wasted that pick. There is nothing wrong with a hot take. But there is something wrong with "this is my take, you're all dumb and nothing can change my opinion". The purpose of a hot take is to be willing to discuss and hear other opinions to measure yours against theirs. You have to go into it with integrity.

Unlike some, I don't just back up my hot takes with profanities. https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/mark_price_vs_john_stockton.htm @Sothron you know I love you but Price never made an all NBA defensive team. Stockton made 5. I don't get better defender. Even Mark Price doesn't get that argument. All team or leader categories. Price 5, Stockton 29. I need a better argument here than eye test. https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/al_horford_vs_dominique_wilkins.htm all team or leader categories 9-2 Wilkins. I'm going to need more here as well. Especially considering the following: 1) Wilkins didn't force his way out of town. 2) Even the Hawks never gave Al a max contract. 3) No team ever gave Al a max contract. Lastly, before you go off on how none of us know basketball like you do or see the game right or any of that nonsense, let me threaten you with receipts. Don't make me pull out the 2018 draft thread where you tried to convince everyone that Mo Bamba or Marvin Bagley was the player to choose. The player to choose over Jaren Jackson Jr., Trae Young and Luka Doncic. I keep receipts!

So much to go at here. Horford won't make the Hall of Fame....isn't a top 75 player all time. That puts him solidly behind Nique, not to mention Pistol Pete, not to mention a number of Hawks from the past. He's a career 13.4 ppg/ 8.1 rpg player. He broke 18 ppg once, 10 rebounds once in his career (12/13 season). He broke 5 apg once, never broke 2 blocks per game. he shot a career 51.3% from the field. He was a good player. He was never great, more or less best anything. He did some non-stat things well but he wasn't great, even in his best season. To show you want I mean, Josh Smith had a higher PPG average in his career, slightly less rebounds per game, but similar apg/more spg and more bpg. I loved Josh, I'd never call him "best Hawk ever". Joe Johnson was more impactful. There's a lot of players with better career stats. Al was good, not great and this nonsense needs to stop. Mark Price is a nice player. Career 15.2/6.7/1.2 player over 11 seasons. John Stockton though, career 13.1 points in 19 seasons. He averaged 10.5 assists per game in 8 additional seasons with 2.2 apg in that time. They aren't in the same category. If you take Stockton's best 11 seasons in comparison to Price, its like comparing a starter to his backup. If used right, if different coach is nonsense. Price played for 4 different teams in his career. His best season assist total was 10.4.....Stockton beat that with his career average. Stats don't favor your arguments. The eye test for most players, most coaches and fans don't back it up either. I can't argue with your worldview, that's yours. But nothing else backs it up except you and Horford's dad/sister.

I've said it before. We all argue with each other on player value, performance but the collective knowledge/wisdom on this board is light years ahead of the typical NBA fan board where no understanding of cap/LT implication exist. Typical board has 1, maybe 2 guys capable of giving some level of player evaluation, no one who truly understands the CBA and a whole slew who post while plastered. This isn't that board (last qualification excluded).

See what Minny gave up for Gobert. Fans look at the exception deals instead of the rule deals and don't understand every nuance like "LT situation, where in the process you are, expiring vs long term in trade, age of player, injury history, cycle of the moon, which Ouija card flipped over in the house in the portal, etc". NBA trades are not equal player value for equal player value. They are a complex mess of supply and demand and right now there is little demand for an expiring player making $38 million a year, in line for a max deal who won't commit to a long term deal at a reasonable salary.

Confirmed above, but: I don't see the Toronto deal getting done. The Raps are in a no win situation right now. They'd have to see it as addition by subtraction. Similar deal with Minny. Kat is great but fit there is a problem. They can't go back into it mixed as they are and yet, they can't just get screwed in a KAT deal from a PR perspective. Lastly, teams like Hunter, they don't love Hunter. They see his game flaws like everyone else. We can't expect Hunter to be what moves the needle for us.

I'll say something controversial here: If (and its a reasonably big if), JJ gets 30 minutes/game, he'll lead the Hawks in blocks and finish top 2 on the Hawks in steals.

If he starts at PF, his stats can't help but go way up. Basic logic. AJ still fighting for minutes with a crowded backcourt.

I expect his PPG to drop again. I expected his efficiency to go up. I expect his APG to go to as high as 12a/g

Like I said, sober me won out.

I'm in the minority on the site as it comes to OO. I like him, love his hustle but I see his weaknesses. You can't be that under tall and not shoot outside. He needs a consistent pick n pop game from at least 15 to make up for his height. The biggest knock on Clint is he clogs the lane on offense. OO is only a little better in this regard. I'd be interested to see how Trae and JC would have been with Brook Lopez (or similar). Trae has to deal with bigs way more often than he should because Clint doesn't draw anyone at the perimeter. Bruno...same story. If Bruno could develop a consistent 15-18 footer, he'd be interesting. 8 years ago Al Horford might have been the perfect center for Trae. Who is better, CC or OO is a hard question though. I like OO's effort and chaos more. His hustle plays. CC plays center like a vet. He conserves a lot of energy. I'm not sure OO could play like he does for 30 minutes a night. So I think CC is better but they are both flawed. CC can't spread the floor, doesn't play the body well. OO doesn't play super bigs close to the basket well, only spreads the floor a bit better.

I actually had an internal discussion about leaving Trae exposed, thinking an expansion team wouldn't want a $40 million salary. Sober me won out.

Not to mention Gasol was a load, Ibaka was a problem and Lowry was quite a few cheeseburgers thinner.