thecampster

17 minutes ago, Watchman said:

Head to Head: Clint Capela vs. Rudy Gobert | Stathead.com

Head to Head: Clint Capela vs. Deandre Ayton | Stathead.com

Interesting observations:  Head to head, Capela is approximately equal to Gobert, and outplays Ayton.  Why do we want to grossly overpay for either of these guys?

 

Gobert is infinitely greater than his personal "stats". 

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/utah-jazz-record-without-rudy-gobert-career#:~:text=The Utah Jazz have a,without Rudy Gobert all-time.

 The Utah Jazz have a record of 45-62 without Rudy Gobert all-time.  

The Jazz's defensive rating without Gobert this season is 115.3, but with him, their rating is 108.6. An almost 7-point drop without him. 

Consider this from Reddit:

1 minute ago, bleachkit said:

Yea well youre typical bench warmer makes more than a heart surgeon. So there's the side of it as well. 

With an average career of about 7 years.

13 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I hate that people totally dismiss it because "dey make alls that money" (as if that makes it all ok).

Yes, moving doesn't hurt them as much financially as it would the "regular dude/dudette" but it still sucks bonkey dalls to have that happen unexpectedly.

Me and the mrs. have researched schools intently and have settled on one that seems to work well for all the kids.  I'd be devastated to have to do that again and in a totally different city .. or country!

To be fair, each NBA team has people that assist players with that in each local market. A lot of the player live in the same community (or close by), kids go to the same schools (usually private). I hate it for the players but I really hate it for the families. The kids didn't sign up for 6 schools in 7 years just because their dad was born tall. Or the wives always being the new wife in town with a preselected small group of friends (players wives tend to all know each other on teams).

It really is a different life for the families. Are they rich? Sure! But they are people regardless.

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Maybe I am missing the point, but any team that trades for him can decline his FG option and when the trade is official, only owe him 5 million dollars. 

That's why the OKC deal works out so well. It only cost them five million when its officially done. Every article I've read states that any team with him has till June 28 to decline his FG contract. Correct me if I am wrong 

Again, don't beat yourself up over this nuance. I often discuss things thinking everyone knows what's going on in my head and leave out valuable info or well...forget myself.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2022/06/why-non-guaranteed-contracts-arent-ideal-trade-chips.html

This article does a terrible job of explaining it but is much more vested than I am at this moment in revisiting this point (previously beaten into the ground).

IE, trade for $17 million in salary for $5 mil doesn't work for salary matching (except with cap negative teams this year) but if they waive him, the $17 mil becomes the guaranteed number. IE, if they then waive Gallo, they are waiving and absorbing what they sent out to us in trade.

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Maybe I am missing the point, but any team that trades for him can decline his FG option and when the trade is official, only owe him 5 million dollars. 

That's why the OKC deal works out so well. It only cost them five million when its officially done. Every article I've read states that any team with him has till June 28 to decline his FG contract. Correct me if I am wrong 

Trading him now fully guarantees his salary. Only we can cash in the $5 mil waive clause.

8 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Yeah, I go low profile sometimes too.  If by "low profile" you mean "using my burner to go at fools that be testin' me" then, yes I go low profile too.  wink, wink

3 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I mean that's not the only case. Right?  OKC may not be at the minimum floor for salary cap and can take Gallo in without sending out additional salary right? 

Not saying this is realistic, but OKC, Portland, SA, Detroit have enough salary space to take Gallo's entire salary for draft compensation without the Hawks taking back salary or am I missing something? 

You are missing that Gallo is about a $9 mil/year player at this point in his career. Nobody is just going to spend their $20 million cap space on Gallo and walk away yelling woo hoo!!! We got the Italian!

Just now, Spud2nique said:

Our scientist capologists have gone too far…

 

And you wonder why I was saying I wanted to go low profile until June 15th or later.  The weeds get deep this far off the reservation.

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This was my 4 for 1 Gallo and #16 trade idea a week and half ago:

 

I can get behind this as a starting point. Then post moratorium see what we can then spin for alternate resources, delay consummation of the deal beyond the 30 days.

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

This was the best I could come up with and I tried a lot of different types of deals.

Replace Micic with Waters. Micic rights are the most important as he will be our BU PG.

Cut Maledon for Cooper

Maledon cut 

Cut Moose and sign Micic to a 4/16 million deal.

New Look Hawks

Trae/Micic/Cooper

Kevin/THJ/Wiggins

Hunter/Williams

Grant/Saric/JJ

Ayton/Okongwu

Plus Sign 44th overall to a min deal. 

Two way Brown and a rook. Mays would cost too much. 

I would consider cutting Wiggins. 

Not to nitpick and I'm a fan of what Huerter brings but I'm starting THJ in this lineup and I'm not cutting Moose for a 2nd round pick.  Muscala is not a good rotational player but he is a very valuable 10th-12th man type and very valuable in need to stretch the floor situations. If I can put him on a roster for $3.5 million as an emergency 4/5....absolutely.  Not really into playing this game and I haven't digested salaries or probabilities in this alt universe but THJ starts over Kevin and Moose gets that last roster spot. 

Just now, thecampster said:

We won't find such a deal but Gallo + 16 for 4 players that add up to < $20 million/year would be the ideal scenario. 2 vets, 2 young players, all of who could play in a pinch. If you're looking for Gallo trades, those are the only ones you'll find. Maybe find a diamond in the rough season in there.

Or if you want someone else's gigantic contract that they don't want (a Westbrook/Wall type of a contract) you could move Gallo + 1 higher priced player for matching and get back that gigantic contract + a draft pick. But that's it. That's what you can reasonably do with Gallo. It has to be either someone some team needs to get rid of on a longer term that's willing to give us a high pick to take or the 4 for 1 swap that lets us fill out roster slots on the cheap.

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

We can trade Gallo, just not for equal salary. We can't do a Grant for Gallo deal, it's not possible for the reasons you stated. But we can do Gallo for scrubs to OKC and rights to Micic for 8.9 million. Gallo contract is a steal since it almost operates like a PP. 

We won't find such a deal but Gallo + 16 for 4 players that add up to < $20 million/year would be the ideal scenario. 2 vets, 2 young players, all of who could play in a pinch. If you're looking for Gallo trades, those are the only ones you'll find. Maybe find a diamond in the rough season in there.

16 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I get it now, basically we just gotta do a trade for the BYC like it's the PP. Now Ayton trade salary is 19 mil but his real salary is like 30.5 mil which will impact us which is why Gallo has to go as that matters. 

That said, we can do like Chicago did which is do a trade but really add pieces you want as a part of the deal but it's not what validated the deal. The deal has to be done within the range. Why Bogi or even a player like OG can be traded. But Atlanta can do a deal within a deal which includes Capela for Shamet and Saric. This might not appeal to Atlanta otherwise but it's really all a part of this massive deal. This is why Toronto also in high on Ayton. OG fits in his 19 million dollar BYC number. I get it now, this shit is like the poison pill. We just gotta be Morey like. That's all. 

Anyone, myself, @JayBirdHawk, @sturt or any other wanna be cap expert on this site that feels they've 100% got a handle on the CBA and its rules 100% of the time is more delusional than a Kings fan on draft night.  Don't beat yourself up.  These rules are made to stop cheating. Simple trade rules are way easier to circumvent.

I feel I've explained this enough but I guess not after reading last night's threads.

If you trade Gallo for similar financial value, you lock the Hawks in at above the LT and severely limit any signings we can do in the offseason. You also greatly restrict your options in sign n trade and every team in the league will know they're holding your fuzzy dangling bits in the fire for trades.

Please stop with the trading Gallo. If you're trading for Jeremy Grant, you have to find a trade partner willing to take back JC. Please have fun and speculate as much as the next person but if Travis sends out Gallo (instead of releasing him or holding him) and takes back similar salary, I'll jump on the Travis sucks wagon with the rest of the negative Nancy train.

With Gallo's salary and the 16th pick, we are 6 million over the Luxury tax, at the apron and still 5 players short of a full roster.  Trading for Grant frees up $4 mil off that number (when 16 is included) but really doesn't do anything for us financially and leaves us 6 players short.

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

If I recall, there was a lot of players in Lonzo SnT and Durant/DLo SnT. 

GSW sent a pick, Nets sent 2 other players. Although media talked about it as one deal, I believe it was 2 simultaneous deals....

Which also means you're going to be adding some draft assets.

Just now, NBASupes said:

How about you do a Bogi for Ayton deal but add Capela. What would need to happen for this deal to happen? Would Shamet need to be in the deal? Also, Atlanta would still have to cover for 7.5 million for just Bogi along. Let's try that and go from there.

You aren't going to like this but they need a center back. So you're looking at something like OO and Hunter for Ayton.

and I'm out of Smurfs to give!!!

Just now, NBASupes said:

Let's try this again, you mean to tell me. If we just traded JC for Ayton and Craig, sent Craig and a NC contract to a 3rd team, we can't do it? Why? We would be within the BYC and would be able to take on Ayton contract? All of this getting under the cap doesn't make sense to me because it seems like the BYC terms remains the same

JC makes $23,500,000.  Ayton's trade amount would be $19 million max.  Now stay with me.  When you sign and trade you can sign and trade "that player" immediately. Not that player and another player to make up the difference.

You can trade that player for 1 and another player for another with the same team in a different order to even things out but all of the rules are the signed player for met salaries.  

Any columnist (including Hollinger) needs to check his rules.

The wording is odd but you are sending the player...no other assets, no picks, nothing.  The return can be multiple assets but the send is the player only. You can sign n trade the player in an immediate transaction.  This means you can't sign then bundle.

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I feel you, Bogi would be my ideal too but Kevin fits better next to Mitchell and he's someone I know Utah has spoke to Atlanta about. I haven't heard Bogi name and Utah mentioned and i already confirmed that JC and Okongwu are not available for a Gobert deal. Kevin just seems like the value that would put them over the top.

 

You like this deal: https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2956360-realistic-trades-to-rescue-nbas-top-young-stars

Clint Capela, Bogdan Bogdanovic, No. 16 pick is plenty.  The 2024 pick would be franchise suicide. You want that pick and you want it in the 20's for an end of the bench type on cheap salary you can develop. That's how winning teams secure dynasties. They shoot their shot on high risk, high reward types in the end of the 1st round.

In his scenario, he was trying to figure out why all the rules on an Ayton trade. In order for BYC to not kick in, they have to be under the cap when they complete the signing for Ayton.  In order for us to trade for $30 million in salary, and send out similar to what we bring in without going over the cap (to just eliminate rules altogether, we'd want to get under the cap too.  That's all.

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I am confused at the JC part. Why does JC have to go? Explain that again?

Had to clear a few more million just to get us under the cap because we'd be taking back more than sending out in the end.

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He won't in terms of trade value for obvious reason. 31 and his contract. Atlanta can offer a lot more. Capela and Kevin.

I'm wincing at Capela and Kevin....not against it but I think Kevin has more value being on a long contract, cheaper than Bogi and considerably younger with better knees. Kevin is valuable. He may not be all world to us but other teams look at him and see oodles of potential on a competing roster.

One other thing to consider with Bogi, JC, Kevin, Hunter and their value.  Their stats do not tell the whole story.  They play in an offense where Trae gets 28 points for himself nightly and gets 10 points a night for CC.  They have little to no opportunity to create for themselves (something all 4 have shown they can do to some extent).  Teams, especially ones looking for an offensive lift and needing someone to put up shots see more in them than we do. We don't need people to hold the ball and put up shots. Some teams do.  The only one in this group that may have less in value than his stats show is Bogi due to his health concerns/age. The other 3 are worth more than their stats. Figure that in.