thecampster

And if you're willing to give up that freedom, that's fine. That's on you. Like I said, I jumped in line to get vaccinated, out of choice. But we need clear lines drawn when the government can dictate a power over someone's body and it needs to go through the legislative process, not Presidential mandates. That is a line I am not a fan of regardless of who is president. Don't confuse the two issues.

It's okay you don't get it. Great part about this country is I can be weary of a nanny state who uses a pandemic to take power for itself and you can choose to allow it. We can disagree. What we can't allow is you to decide my point of view is invalid because you don't see it. I not arguing against vaccination. I'm arguing against forced vaccination.

Thanks

This same "for public safety" or "The common good" argument is what led the mass incarceration of Japanese Americans during WW2. Its what led to the annexation of Native American lands, the forced conversions during the inquisition and was the same argument used for why thousands of black people were kept in slavery. Watch any period drama and the prevailing thought was "they'd starve without us". I don't like giving up my freedoms because someone else takes them. I'm happy to surrender them when I see the cause is just but force it upon me and I'll resist on principal.

Gonna get off the Diesel engine train for a while. So I tend to talk in very narrow context for what I'm thinking is a very high level thought. I see granting government power as equally as dangerous as most viruses. We give government power in order to make our lives better, provide for the common good. But we should measure that power accordingly and never give it out out of fear. Once granted, you usually have to fight a battle to get it back. I prefer a world where we only give the government a power when its absolutely necessary. We should treat government the same way we treat powers of attorney. Very few people would give another person general power of attorney over all of their affairs. Instead, when a need is recognized, we tend to give out a special power of attorney and spell out all the limitations of that power. So too should we approach government. The approach Diesel is proposing is very similar to a general power of attorney. The government can do whatever it deems necessary for anything it deems in the common good, instead of we the people recognizing that a special power may be needing to be granted and doling out a special power of attorney with strict limitation, guidelines and time limits. A great example of this is the president doesn't have the power to declare war. He has limited powers to use the military for a short period of time before he must tell Congress and get their approval for additional use/an act of war. The CIA can't operate on US soil (damn it, you all quit laughing. I want to believe that). Reservist can only be called to active duty for a maximum of 270 days and must be given time off between deployments. Its a special power with clear limits. The idea that the president can make a declaration and and remove your personal freedom over your own body is frightening and people should see it as such. That should only be allowed in clearly defined circumstances. Public safety is way too vague a term to be throwing around.

I'm not sure that means what you think it means. We're still talking Smallpox, with a lethality rate of up to 30% depending on the strain. Its based on my favorite premise. My rights end where yours begin. The right to life trumps liberty which trumps the pursuit of happiness. If my right (liberty) is up against your right (life), life wins. If my liberty is up against your general pursuit of happiness, liberty wins. You can predict pretty much every rights case against that model. In the case of Smallpox, it was absolutely a threat to persons and country for you to not be vaccinated. We aren't there yet with COVID and so its liberty (freedom of movement, equal right to work, control of your own body/property) vs your ability to go to the movies without a mask on (pursuit of happiness). Can you die from COVID, yes, will you die from COVID, undetermined. But get out of that mindset for a minute. Stop thinking of the government as the end power in the country. Its not. Its not the military, its not the police. Its thought systems. Think of how movements shut down major cities last year, how governments cowered in the face of angry protestors on Jan 6. The power does and always will rest in the hand of the angry masses. Your proclamations move us toward more angry masses where one of them will do something stupid. Win this fight with compassion and reason. As someone who rehabs dogs, let me tell you, it is never a good idea to corner a confused, scared dog. Sit on the stairs near him and toss him chunks of cheeseburgers. Pet him when he says its okay and soon he'll be on the leash walking happily with you (new video upload coming, check in the lounge). Get off that mandate concept and stop being the guy on the internet refusing to say "I might have overstepped".

I just don't know what to do with this. How to explain this. Vaccinations are conditionally mandated right now but its conditional. For example, in order for your child to attend public school or go to any daycare under state's authority. But it is not mandated that children are vaccinated. This is how government was able to get away with it. Its when you enter the private space that things get dicey. Diesel, government is the elected officials of your neighbors. A law, government mandate, regulation are all just your neighbors telling you how to drive, how tall your grass can be and what happens when you commit a crime. The problem with regulations/mandates are that they typically haven't gone through the legislative process. In order for it to become law, you need 218 Representatives, effectively 60 Senators and the President to all stick their necks out and take the plunge to legislate something. In most cases, presidential mandates are struck down when something falls outside of the President's authority from Congress. When you say something like the above, what you are saying is that 279 of your elected folks are going to hedge their bet that the voters won't retaliate at the ballot box. Studies have shown that the majority of the country is pro vaxx but anti mandate. If Congress (lets not make this left or right because its not) was to actually give the president the power to enforce a vaccine mandate by President Order or vote it into law themselves, at least a third of those voting for it would lose their seat at the first opportunity. People do not like being told what to do and especially with their own bodies. Its 100% unrealistic what you're saying. That's not how things work. The real question right now is whether or not that authority already lies with Biden. Is this enough of a crisis that his existing emergency powers would authorize his mandating this. I would state not but I've been wrong before (3 times actually...no wait...4). You can't just make sweeping statement like "the Government will". Those jokers are in it for whatever works for them. They will read the tea leaves first and the tea leaves say people are okay with the vaccine but not okay with forced vaccinations.

But the counter counter argument is that those attending the event have a reasonable expectation of safety. Splitting hairs I know and I really am in the middle with for/vs player arguments.

Now this is really good in seeing the middle ground between "COVID deaths" and "COVID related". This is gets away from the icky COVID language and engages "excess deaths" or "impact" if you will. Many of these can be attributed to suicide, lack of supplies, medicine hospital resources, etc. Showing true impact instead of just regurgitating a number is way more effective.

Unrelated note of the insanity around Covid and the shot. I know a lady who got vaccinated but didn't want anyone to know because many of her friends are antivaxx.

That is way too deep for most people to fully grasp but one of the better points made here. Its common but something that should be stated and mentioned to others. Get the shots, your chances of hospitalization go down dramatically which in turn saves hospital resources for others. A very important and often glossed over point.

Well except for the kids trapped in the car with Mommy and her Lucky Strikes. But I get the comparison. We might want to start treading lightly in this thread, get your admin whip out and ready. We're teetering here on politics. Should probably reign this back a smidge.

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/smallpox-causes-treatment "Smallpox Causes The variola virus causes it. There are two forms of the virus. The more dangerous form, variola major, led to smallpox disease that killed about 30% of people who were infected. Variola minor caused a less deadly type that killed about 1% of those who got it." I would have been onboard then too. But comparing COVID to Smallpox isn't really apples to apples. I'm not far off with COVID but the true direct death rate is still fairly low considering ( I KNOW I KNOW 1 in 500). But allowing a president to mandate something by executive order is a very slippery slope. You have to be careful no matter how well intentioned. Also realize that all mandates come with repercussions. Saying do this or you don't work means a less effective work force, poorer quality, slower production. The US (and most of the world) operates on "Just in Time" manufacturing and processing. Any disruption of that production causes fist fights at Walmart over toilet paper. Big boy problems require big boy solutions. Every decision has consequences and mandates have a bad history of acceptance in this country leading to all sorts of problems. Laws with judicial review have been shown time and again to be the best avenue for national buy in.

Not going to argue that. Its sound, but just because you or I might say that it is...getting a COVID denier on board you can't use your stats to influence them. You still have to use "their" stats. A better stat for them is verified (tested) infections. That one is undeniable.

Yah, I have a lot of that going on against me right now. Again folks. I am pro vaccine. I am vaccinated, I have successfully encouraged others to be vaccinated. But in order to succeed with the holdouts, its going to take understanding, reason and patience. Shaming is not going to work and is the wrong method. Take a second and understand why people have objections. Even if they seem crazy, its that person's decision and feelings. If you want to succeed in changing their mind, you have got to find some way to empathize. Its sales101.

Ya but defense is effort. If he wants that GOAT status, he's got to start working on that 48" vertical. Otherwise, why are we even playing? Maybe he should start eating with Cam so he can figure out how to grow 3 inches a year.

Starting tomorrow, all will be right in the world again. I love training camp, the photos that come out, videos of scrimmages...post them all and hold nothing back.

So a typical vaccine works by putting weakened cells into your body so your body can easily fight them off and learn an immunity (simple version here). The Pfizer, Moderna versions are 2 parts. 1st part is just part of the mRNA, not fulling working cells of the vaccine. Gives your body the blueprint without the full cells. Also some immunity strengthening devices. Its not the same as say, the mumps vaccine. It would take significantly longer to develop one of those and it still wouldn't work properly because of the rate this thing mutates. Dead vs not dead people isn't the question. That's too simple. The longer a strain is in the wild (people), it mutates based on the person's unique makeup. The virus is always trying to win. Limiting the amount of time the virus is in your body, limits its ability to mutate. Shorter illness leads to less mutation and a better chance at ending strains, creating herd immunity. Prolonged cases lead to more variants, a potentially strong variant 10 times more deadly. That's why you get immunized. Its the social contract of trying to help others. For the sake of sidebar arguments, lets keep this conversation to facts and not spin. The COVID death toll is much lower to the COVID "related" death toll. That one word is important. COVID by itself hasn't killed near as many as COVID + other conditions (like cancer, immuno compromised, etc). In a country of 300 million...600,000 dead is 1 in 500 but we can't say specifically how many of those were COVID and how many were COVID + other conditions. Its triggering for some when those stats are thrown out there. Its enough we should all give a crap, but we should always deal in facts when trying to win over hold outs. Feeling they're being lied to is why most hold outs exists. Always deal in facts to win over the doubters. You won't win them all but you will turn off more than you win if there's any possible holes in your stats.

Nire, you and I have butted heads in the past but I give credit where credit is due. There is a lot of really good information in this post. A lot of well formulated fact based information. This should be required reading. Focusing on that bottom section, crazy knows no allegiance to any one political affiliation. I can't even push this anti-vax stuff at libertarians. Its a cross section of every belief system, religious and not, left and right, educated and not. There are antivaxxers living in trailers in backwoods Arkansas, tenements in downtown Detroit and living in country clubs in metro Atlanta. I even to some degree understand the distrust. I tend to operate on a risk appetite type of decision making. I openly admitted at the time that there were risks with trusting the government and a poorly tested new vaccine. I also looked at the risks I posed to myself (and society as a whole) if I didn't get vaccinated. It was a very easy choice. Limited risk (get ill, feel bad for a few days, possible side effects) vs 3 weeks in a hospital on a ventilator before I croaked and infecting my entire family. Seemed like a pretty easy decision to accept the vax risk. I think it all goes back to honesty. Be honest with folks that there are risks with any medical procedure (no matter how slight) and be honest with the risks if you don't have it done. Some people, no matter how reasonable the decision seems to be, will reject government involvement and basic science. But I'm willing to accept that risk of letting them make personal decisions (even if they are stupid) in lieu of the greater risk of giving government control over forced vaccinations for all. All that said, go get jabbed folks. Its over in a few seconds. Make sure you're on a probiotic regimen beforehand and it will lighten the side effects greatly. The vaccine lessens your time of being contagious by helping your body fight it off faster. Its really simple. Contagious for 3 days is better than contagious for 2 weeks.

No your legal eagle take is always welcome. I just don't see you around as much. So let me see if I can unravel this (being more than a novice but less than an expert on legal jargon). In general, a medical inquiry into an employee's health (transmissible disease) would be generally limited to either A) an employee demonstrates symptoms consistent with a medical situation (ie protecting an employer who administers CPR, sends a sick employee home, etc) or B.) In a general policy applied to the general worker population without prejudice (all employees must be drug tested, 6 weeks family leave with cause, etc)? 1. Would those 2 statements be true? and 2. Can you come up with another circumstance/situation?

Limits the time you're infected. Helps the body fight it off faster.

Hey @AHF can you weigh in on the legal rights (or not) of employers to know an employee's medical status/history/etc? How black and white is it? How muddled?

Yah, see I'm vaccinated, I advocating being vaccinated but I'm not 100% sure I'm okay with giving a president (any president) the power to mandate things to businesses. If you feel that strongly about it, pass a law. The president's mandate isn't constitutional (IMHO) but that's a conversation for another forum. I know some people don't listen to logic or reason know matter how much you coax them. If COVID was say 20% deadly if caught or something I'd be okay with legally mandating it, giving employers the power to mandate. But we are talking something that (in its current state) isn't much different than the flu. I just don't like giving away that power over my own body to the government. But being a logical being, jumped in line to do it. I'm not okay with restricting speech against it either, because there is a push to silence objectors in any society and the basis of our society is to give people the right to make their own decisions. Alcohol kills, but we still make it legal. Does it kill everyone, no but its deadly to many. Its the same basic thing. For me its not even a matter of money. Getting COVID can really hurt your season (see Bogi's first half) and your body (I know people with scarred lungs). Its a real easy logical decision but it takes some people a lot longer to see logic and reason. Damn that's brilliant! I'm stealing it.

So its a tricky business telling people what to do medically. I'm not saying I'm on one side of the argument or not but here are a few things to consider. 1) Consider how the majority of NBA players are black. 2) Consider all of the medical procedures forced upon black people in this country and in the world over the last 100 years (forced sterilization comes to mind). 3) Consider that this is their place of work and how you would feel having your employer deeply involved in your medical decisions. 4) Consider that for many of these players, this is the only job they plan to have in their lifetime. They are investing upwards of 50% of their NBA salaries and hoping that is what carries them through the rest of life. Many of them have not trained to hold a regular Joe job. A medical complication from any procedure could cost them all future earnings. I know there are other things to consider (like malpractice restitution, end of career insurance, etc) but it really is hard for us puny mortals to understand what's going on in the minds of a professional athlete. I got the vaccine as soon as it was available. I encouraged all in my family to get the vaccine. But I am a huge proponent of personal freedom. I don't have all the answers on how they safely return to work and the rights of those also in the workplace (this does vex me), but its not as simple as "its your damned job, go get the shot". I am really, really hesitant to give the government (which is basically my neighbors) the right to make any personal choices for me. That doesn't have a great history of working out for minorities in this country (see, the Trail of Tears). When North Carolina forcibly sterilized 50,000 people in the early 1900's, they said it was for the best for everyone then too. They were just looking out for those poor enfeebled minds who couldn't possible care for a child. I get the apprehension. I think you win this over with patient prodding, not mandates. Kyrie Irving is a really interesting case here in this. He seems really easily swayed by conspiracy talk (the flat Earth thing was his famous one, but there are others). The great thing about this country is you can be bat crap crazy and still hold a job.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/kyrie-irving-reportedly-unvaccinated-could-212035968.html This might play a role in the season. Irving, Wiggins and a number of big names still aren't vaccinated (how?). This could have an impact on team win totals, morale, cohesion. In what I believe will be one of the closer, more parity driven years in league history, a few games could be the difference between the 8th and 5th seeds, 5th and 2nd. I'm interested to how this plays out.