No on court leadership

[TheNorthCydeRises]

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Well, I will say it like this...

I believe that Chillz will be better than Miller. I have seen Miller straight up Suck.. But I have to wonder if Miller would compliment JJ well?

It might be extreme and a thought unspoken, but we might ought to think about JJ being the one that moves. I mean, his lofty salary and his great skillset could get us a lot in return... I say this knowing that he's the best thing we have had in Atlanta.. BUT if we can't compliment him well, why not shop around..

I would definitely look at a JJ for Mobley, Wilcox, and a 1st (unpro).

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(( Taking the bottle of Grey Goose away from Diesel ))

Mobley, Wilcox and a 1st round pick may not be as much as you think. I'd rather build the team around JJ and Al . . instead of Al and some nice players with no upside.

I don't think Mobley and Wilcox up their games if they come to ATL. Mobley is a nice SG, but I can't see the guy ever playing better than he is right now . . especially if he comes to a team without a quality PG.

And Wilcox? He's never impressed me on offense or defense. He'd be a backup behind ZaZa and he wouldn't improve us defensively.

And that 1st round pick may be very low, seeing that the Clips have the 5th best record in the NBA right now.

So we trade JJ for a 1st round pick that may be 20th or below . . a nice, but aging SG that may see his game regress without a quality PG . . and a PF/C that may not be much better than Obinna Ekezie?

Thanks but no thanks. I'll take my chances with JJ's upside as a player, over that trade.

[Diesel]

My only reason for bringing up JJ...

JJ does have upside.

But right now, we are playing him Ray Allen, Kobe, Tmac Money... And he's playing like Jrich... It's not bad, but it's not 70 million either.

I think JJ has a lot of value and could bring us a first round pick as well as 1 or 2 good players.

I say this knowing that our fix will be for us to get a PG that can run the offense and make JJ a full time SG. If we do that, we have overpaid for him, but we must start somewhere.

[Weez]

we only need to make a trade for 'one or two good players' if those two players have defined roles/would fit in...Mobley would not help the pg situation, nor would Wilcox help us figure things out at PF.

we're paying him on the front end of his first non-rookie contract. we HAD to overpay for someone at some point...and while we may need to add someone to help in the backcourt, it's a much better problem than the one we had with JT as our 'guard.'

If Lue could distribute (or Salim), there'd be a smooth transition in moving JJ to the 2...problem is, we don't have that. But that's a much easier fill than you might htink as well.

most of all...ALL of these guys need time playing together. More of it.

[Diesel]

I think the main question that plagues everybody's mind is this:

Is it the PG and our deficiencies or is it coaching?

It's interesting because when you look at N.O. They definitely have much less talent than we do, yet they are winning games. What they seem to have is Isiah Thomas part 2 playing PG... However, they have structure in their offense. I remember people dogged Byron Scott's coaching and gave all the credit to Kidd, but as I look at that N.O. team... With No home court.. With no real Big man presence defensively... Without a real swingman... These guys are winning convincingly. It makes you wonder why we can't win and we have JJ, Al, Smoove, Chillz, Zaza, and Marvin... I think we have much more talent than they have position for position except at the PG...

So is it coaching or is it PG?

Another thing to consider is Denver. When they have Jefferey B, they were barely winning... When they got George Karl... Nothing really changed, but they started putting together wins and playing a better brand of basketball.

The other day, i read an article about Lenny Wilkens after the death of his wife... and he was saying that he's not looking for a coaching position.... Well, I thought.. How would this Hawks team be with Lenny?

Welp, Lenny wasn't great with young players although he did a lot with a young raptors team.

Then I said, what would this team be with Paul Silas...

I said, well, Silas is hard on some players... Maybe that's what we need.

Maybe the true answer lies at the end of the season. Let Woody play it out... Then make a judgement. I would take the mandates off woody and just let him coach. If we did that, I would be interested in what we get. If we do change coaches, I would like to see Frank Johnson get a call.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

What's really scary . . or frustrating about this team . . is that the Hawks could legitimately be 6 - 6 right now.

- 2 pt loss @ Portland . . on a questionable aiss call

- 1 pt loss vs Memphis . . because of missed FTs and the inability to secure a rebound in the final second

- 3 pt loss @ OKC . . after the amazing comeback and having the ball with a chance to take the lead in the final 20 seconds

- 2 pt loss vs Portland . . after blowing a double digit lead in the 2nd half and going ice cold in the 4th quarter.

Even with all of this team's flaws, the Hawks could EASILY be 6 - 6 right now . . which would tie us with Milwaukee as the #8 seed in the East.

So at 6 - 6, would we be having the same complaints about this team? Would we be willing to trade off key guys, just for the sake of filling "needs" with less talented players?

To be honest with you, I think this is all about these guys learining how to play with each other, and giving a FULL AND COMPLETE EFFORT while on the court, than about the need for a PG or coaching mistakes. These guys have to realize that each and every player on this team is going to have to scrap and claw every minute on the court, in order for us to win games.

You said it yourself in another thread. One of the things killing this team, is the lack of production from Marvin Williams. And you can add about 2 - 3 more people to that lack of production list. ( Lue, Childress, Smith ( at times ), etc )

And production doesn't necessarily mean points all the time either. It's the little things that KILL this team. Not blocking out . . not being aggressive on offense . . not hitting free throws in critical points in the game . . not fighting through screens to get to shooters.

Basically, it's all about desire, smart play, and the ability to do the little things it takes to win games.

People always talk about Salim . . but to be honest, he's the only one on this team that seems to get it. That's why the Hawks need to make a point to play the guy 30 minutes a game . . even if his shot isn't falling. When he's on the court, he seems to do the little things to help his team.

[Weez]

nice reminder. even if you throw out the NO game (with the heroics), we'd be 5-7....not too bad.

a very interesting piont to make.

thanks for the intelligent post.

[exodus]

That is why I think all these trade threads are so dumb. The Hawks aren't that far from being a good team. Give them some experience and a couple of new additions over the summer and things could look very different in a hurry.

[Nicholasp27]

exactly

keep the team together (trade al if u get something good enough or u don't think he'll sign this summer) and let them play

if they play like they did the last 3 games (minus the 4th quarter last game), then they will win some ballgames...i think after last game, they got their wakeup call that they really do have to play all 48 mins...they did it 2 games and got wins...then they did it 3/4 of a game and were winning and then slept and lost...so by now these guys know what it takes to win and hopefully they'll give it

as for jj, even if he goes to sg next to rondo, i don't think he's overpaid...and i don't think he's gonna be too far behind the kobes and tmacs and allens once he feels more comfortable with this team (and even more so once we get a real pg)

[Diesel]

You want to trade Al just for the sake of trading him??

You talk about the last three games, but on the season, Al has been tremendous for us.

Is it because it's his contract year?

So what happens when it's JJ, JC, JS, and Marvin's contract year... Should they look to be Clippered too?

The funny thing is that we don't have anybody who can step up and replace Al??? But you want to trade him away??

Your logic is weak.

[exodus]

Quote:

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So what happens when it's JJ, JC, JS, and Marvin's contract year...

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All those guys except JJ will be restricted. Al isn't. Pretty big difference.

[Nicholasp27]

i've said i'd keep him for 6-7mil/year, but trade him if he's gonna require more than that to sign

if there is any doubt that he will resign or at least aid in a sign-and-trade, then we should trade him if we get value for him

i like al, but i like marvin/smoove future combo at 3/4 more...if we keep al (at 6-7mil/year), i'll be happy...if we trade him for a valuable piece(s) then i'll be happy

but trading jj? marvin? zaza?

cmon now

[Weez]

Why isn't all restricted? to the best of my knowledge he IS.

[exodus]

I don't know all the contract rules but I think JJ would be unrestricted, altough they would be able to exceed the cap to resign him. Rookies are restricted in their last year.

For example Redd could have chosen to leave if he wanted to, even though the Bucks offered him a max deal.

The Hawks should treat Al differently from the others simply because it is not a sure thing that he will come back. And if they draft a big they might not be that interested anyway.

Keep in mind he is talking about their contract years. In JJ's case that is 5 years from now.

[Traceman]

Al is playing under his 2nd contract and not his rookie contract. He signed an extension while he was still in Indy.

[Diesel]

It doesn't matter how long... What matters is the philosophy we adopt. Now we traded for Al because he fit what we were looking for. Now, you guys want to trade him why???

Did he stop being what we were looking for? NO!

I think it's another case of trying to validate Marvin's pick... You guys want to drum up suggestions that Al wants to leave (even though I have heard differently and he talks differently in interviews) just to validate us picking Marvin... That's weak.

Right now, AL is our most consistent offensive player. I don't trading him will help us.

[exodus]

Even if the Hawks did trade him they could still resign him after the season.

You might as well accept that if the Hawks use their first pick on a big then Al won't be back.

17 pts and no D are replacable.

[Diesel]

First off...

What Big? What Big will be able to come in here and be a difference maker?

Secondly...

Why trade him? He's 17 pts, leadership, and he does play defense. If he can be extended, he's either scoring from the starting position OR he's depth.. Plus, he can always be traded Later when his value will be better... NO team will give you equal value for a player with an ending contract....

Lastly.. Where do you think you will get Al's numbers??

Let me remind you of Something:

without Al #1...

Marvin = 8 pts.

Without Al #2.

Batista = 0 pts.

[Nicholasp27]

so al is out and joshes average double digits...

kinda like last march/april when al was out?

anyway, i like al, mainly if he can consistently average 9rpg, but only at 7mil or less...i'm not paying 8/9/10+ mil for him

[Diesel]

Hawks average 85 pts...

One of the Joshes always gets double digits...

And actually, in the first game... 7,6,8 for Marvin and the Joshes..

So what's your point? Nobody raised their game is mine.

Marvin's 8 points total was really helpful!

[raindog]

If BK is not 100% sure that Al will resign with us, he must trade Al even for less value. That's better than nothing.

And I'm not a Marvin hardcore fan. I think and thought before the draft that CPaul will be better or at least not worse than Marvin.