OK...

[Diesel]

I have said.. and I told you all to quote me...

Paul would be ROY and Deron would be the second coming of Jason Kidd.

While Marvin would be the second coming of Tim Thomas...

Obviously I was wrong on one count because Tim Thomas had a much better rookie year than Marvin is having so far.

[thesheedera]

And I see that Paul is a "winner"...what exactly has he won?

What did Wake do with all that talent last year? Why didn't that team go further than they did?

Because Chris Paul let his ego get in between his goals and his team's goals, and it caused a rift within the team? That's what a lot of people believe. And they think that rift led to the team not trusting their coach because of his favortism towards Paul. In addition, his immaturity caused him to overreact with Julius Hodge and he hit him in the balls. He got suspended during the most important part of the season, and all team unity was out the window, but Chris was already focused on the NBA, so he didn't really care.

Yeah, that's the anti-Wake ACC fan spin, but there is some truth in there.

I believe he's a good kid who just got carried away, and I believe he's the real deal. I don't think he is any more to blame for the way they fell apart than his teammates, who were seemingly jealous of him. But there are a lot of critics out theer who believe strongly that he is not a "leader". And his record shows that his teams have won games, but have never won anything of grand significance.

Let's not make him out to be some kind of messiah of hoops here. The reality is that he's putting up monster numbers on a bad team, and he has the ball in his hands constantly.

[thesheedera]

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Now that THESHEDA has admitted that Paul was probaby the better pick for us.. Maybe it's time to have an intervention with you.

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Don't go believing that you convinced me of that. I've been nervous about picking Marvin over Paul since long before the draft order was announced. I want him on my team because i believe he will be a star. I was nervous because I wasn't sure if he would produce right away, and that fans like you wouldn't give him the time he deserves to develop.

Next thing you know, his own "fans" bash him, we trade him away, and he blossoms somewhere else and it haunts us for many years to come.

I'd love to see you be honest and tell the rest of us about the positive things you've seen from Marvin. Or are you incapable of that????

[Diesel]

Click 1

Check out the one title "Let me put it out there" or something like that...

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Again... Tell me the difference between Marvin Williams and Tim Thomas. If you are honest, you will admit that all you really know about Williams is based on HOPE.. Not on actually talent. You hope that he can make the transition. You hope that he becomes a good defender. YOu hope that he doesn't break under pressure. HOPE.

However, you know a lot more about Deron. YOu know that he's a team leader. YOU know that he's a good defender. YOU know that he's a top PURE PG... YOU know all these things so quit LYING and Making up stuff about his abilities..

Truth be known, the only reason he's not higher in Mocks is because it's not fashionable to draft a PG that high... Well, I hope that we break fashion.. because Deron and Paul are both special players!

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Speedwise, he has now been measured as fast as Paul..

I have made the comparison to Jackson myself.

I think that he's a better defender than Jackson or Kidd...and he sees the floor just as well as either. He's a leader. I have read the reports of him working out with Jordan and with Majerus... But guys point to Deron as being the future... I have no doubts about it, he will probably eclipse Kidd.

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Nobody's bashing Marvin (perse).. It's the choice. When you have a PG and Sf of equal talent and you have 5 SFs already and no PG.. What's the logical choice?

I think what we did was go against Logic with the Marvin Pick. To make up for it, people try to talk about how Marvin Williams will be this and that.

Let's take all the hype.

Marvin Williams hyped to be next James Worthy.. (although Worthy actually could dribble more than 1 step).

However, I have heard Paul being touted as the next Isiah and Deron as the next Kidd.

My point.. When it's one of the hardest position to fill anyway, you don't pass it up for more of the same. There will always be good Sfs in the draft and FAcy.. They grow on trees. PGs of the calibre of Paul, Williams do not.

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[thesheedera]

You have a damn fine handle on how to interface with the technology of this website. That always impresses me.

I think everyone knows what your stance on the 2005 draft is. Would it be possible to have one thread here that discusses the #2 pick last year, and the Marvin-Paul-Deron argument that follows, and we just stick with that thread?

Just curious...when you watch games, are you typically rooting for or against Marvin? Not trying to be a smartass here, I'm just honestly curious if you ever enjoy watching him play, or if you're so consumed with the draft that you're too frustrated to watch when he's on the floor.

If your goal is just for people to admit that the pick MIGHT have been a mistake, I think you would have more success and this wouldn't be such a daily obsession around here. Back during the draft it seemed like Marvin was gonna get at least a full season to adjust to the NBA before people started to turn on him. It seemed like everyone understood that the pick was about how it affected the franchise in the long term, not how he produced in the first third of his rookie season.

My biggest wish this Christmas is that the winning continues enough that people focus on the team's success, not on the minute by minute breakdown of which pick was better. And that if we can have some consistency winning games, people will start to watch Marvin in the context that he deserves. As a unique young talent that's trying to find his way in the NBA, and who is a joy to watch for those of us that understand that his early career will be very inconsistent.

[Diesel]

I had to take you to the mat because you made the statement that I didn't want Paul...

But as you see, everytime I mentioned Deron, I mention Paul too.

My preference is Deron because I think in the long run, he will be the better defender and he would be a good distributor for this team.. BUT that doesn't mean that I put Marvin ahead of Paul. I would take any high quality PG and even Bogut (who I believe is just hype too) over Marvin... Because at least they fit the need better.

[thesheedera]

Its really bad (for a Hornets fan) to see:

Chris Paul, you're savior and the greatest new PG in a hundred years, making only 5 of 16 shots and dishing only 3 assists in a huge loss to the Wolves.

Just gotta be fair. If we're gonna single out bad games for Marvin when Paul has good games, we better do the same when Paul has a shotty night.

You don't need your point guard taking more shots than everyone else on the team when he's barely hitting more than 30%.

Just another step for a young PG on a young team.

[Packfill]

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one thing to keep in mind is learning the weaknesses of a new player..once the league's players play with Paul more I think he'll have a little tougher time defensively with them due to his size that we talked about predraft..

once marvin gets it, his naturaly physical skills will help him against that..

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I am sorry, but regardless of where you stand on the Marvin/Paul debate, that is the biggest load of crap ever.

John Stockton never slowed down did he? Mark Price got worse? Kevin Johnson was hindered by his six foot frame? Larry Bird was hindered by his lack of athleticism? Reggie Miller was thrown of his game because of his lack of strength?

There are hundreds of players with exceptional athletic abilities that were not able to translate that into NBA stardom.

[Lascar78]

yes and no. I think it is fair to expect that other players will get a better scouting report and play him differently. However, there's no reason to believe that Paul won't also be able to adjust and raise his game to meet that challenge.

It seems pretty clear that Paul will be a stud. PG is the hardest position to learn and he seems to have a pretty good grasp from day 1.

[Packfill]

The thing I don't understand is why people want/expect him to fail? He is a 20 year old rookie that has played brilliantly and his play has directly translated into wins for a team that is very young and lacks talent. To suggest that a 20 year old will not improve is laughable. Obviously it can happen, but it would be the exception not the norm.

[Lascar78]

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The thing I don't understand is why people want/expect him to fail?

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Basically, it's the Diesel syndrome. Wanting what you said some months ago to be true so badly that you'll spin anything and make up facts to make it seem true, even though a part of you knows it's wrong.

People supported taking Marvin and passing on Paul, and now discrediting Paul and his future is a way to seem less wrong.

Personally, I was unsure between Deron and Marvin because we needed a PG so bad, but I was pretty sure Paul would fail against the bigger guards in the NBA. After a month of NBA, it's clear that that is not the case, and it is at the very least possible that we made the wrong choice. Oh well. It's still possible for Marvin to be a true superstar that makes the pick the right one, but I'm not going to bash Paul because we passed on him. I also didn't like what we'd seen of Paul's character when he punched a man in the balls, but everyone makes mistakes.

[exodus]

Last year in the draft I really had no clue who the Hawks should draft. When they drafted Marvin I really hadn't seen enough of him to make a judgement either way. I was just like whatever.

Same thing this year. After Aldridge I really don't know who would be best for the Hawks.

[Lascar78]

yeah I felt like it was between deron and marvin, that it depended on how marvin's potential looked in the workouts because it was hard to get a read for just how good he was on such a talented team as UNC. I was enamored with Bogut but we didn't get the lottery luck.

This year I'm really not sold on Aldridge. I've seen 2 games, and was not impressed at all. Rondo has impressed me the most of everyone, in terms of how he would fit on our team. I think in the end we should be after one of those 2.

[DJlaysitup]

Ahh the Marvin vs Paul debate (which was the better pick)...a debate that only exists in the ATL because everywhere else people are touting how PAul has taken the league by storm and have pretty much forgotten about MW.

Reminds me of the lower echelon teams that always count the top team as "their rival" while the top team just chuckles and whups them time after time.

Marvin gets hot for a quarter versus NBDL-level talent at garbage time and ?? Get real, until MW gets the job done consistently against the 1st team there is no debate here..things are what they are...Paul was the best pick of the draft...so far...(and so far is all we have to analyze)

[Lascar78]

that's completely oversimplifying and ignoring the fact that we knew that marvin would take a couple of years to be ready, while Paul was ready to go. You can't just ignore that and act as if it's surprising

[Diesel]

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The thing I don't understand is why people want/expect him to fail? He is a 20 year old rookie that has played brilliantly and his play has directly translated into wins for a team that is very young and lacks talent. To suggest that a 20 year old will not improve is laughable. Obviously it can happen, but it would be the exception not the norm.

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There is a contingency of Marvin fans that are praying for Paul to flop somehow? They want Paul to flop and they want Marvin to step up. I mean they say it all the time like it's fact. The reason being is that they don't want to think that we passed up on "BPA" at a position that we needed in order to take the Most hyped player available.

The bottom line is people want to be right.

It's sad really.

I guess that what they mean by Playa Haters.

They hate Paul because he's good. I mean, I don't even think Isiah was this good this soon.

Watch and Learn.

[thesheedera]

I want any ACC player that didn't go to Carolina to fail in the pros in comparison to any Carolina player of similar age, draft status, position, etc.

With that said, I do like Paul and admire his game, I just would rather see Felton, Marvin, May and McCants succeed than Paul.

I think people who follow the NBA more closely than college don't have as many prejudices, expectations or hopes regarding young players as those of us who are college fans first and NBA fans second.

[thesheedera]

FYI:

Isiah's rookie season

33.8 MPG

17.0 PPG

7.8 APG

2.9 RBG

Paul could definitely make a run at those numbers. But can he get his team to the Finals as quickly as Isiah???

[Yeti]

This is getting really sad. Everyone is saying the same things over and over again - - kind of like my wife. OK, we all know Diesel and others argued hard before the draft to pick Paul or Deron. We all know this. Maybe he was right, maybe not. But we don't need to hear it any more. The reality is we picked Marvin. Accept it. THats just the way it is. Right or wrong he's our player - root for him.

[Diesel]

Just because we picked Marvin don't mean that we have to go out and wish (and make statements to that effect) that Paul does bad.

We can't get past it, until we be honest.