Dre' Miller to Atlanta??

[KB21]

How would Andre Miller up the team assist total when he's dominating the ball at the top of the key, slowing the motion of the offense down, and not getting the Hawks out into the break as much? That doesn't even take into account that Andre is a liability as a shooter.

[Admin]

CLEARLY you dont watch the Hawks games because that is EXACTLY what JJ and Lue and Al do when they have the ball, is dribble it around at the top of the key looking for one another. The ONLY times that Smoove and Chillz get the ball is when one of those 3 is doubled and has to give it up.

Also, Miller has a 47% FG shooting average this year, and 45% for his career. While he doesnt shoot the 3 worth a damn, Lue can still come off the bench to provide the 3pt stroke from the PG position if we absolutely need it.

[Lascar78]

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Because I can count at least 10 times per game when Smoove and Chillz are just ignored going to the basket.

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Also it's too easy to just look at the good games. On the season, we're averaging 17.8 apg, 25th in the league. Denver is averaging 23.9, 2nd in the league.

[Admin]

Well clearly Denver would be #1 if they had Lue pushing the ball up the court, right? I mean its not like he dribbles the ball around too much, or is short, flipper armed, and a defensive liability, is he?

[KB21]

Bullspit!

The Hawks, over their past 11 games or so, have been whipping the ball around, doing a great job of finding the guy with the open shot. The team ball movement has been great, and that ball movement has created opportunities that have the Hawks shooting a higher percentage on field goals and three pointers than most teams in the NBA during that span.

[KB21]

Actually, Denver would be better if they didn't have the bottomless pit known as Carmelo Anthony, otherwise known as Glenn Robinson junior.

[Admin]

Marvin and that just drives you insane. In fact, I would say Carmelo is at least as good as JJ, maybe even better.

If Marvin ever becomes what Carmelo was his rookie year I will be stunned.

[Admin]

Are you watching the games? They aren't "whipping it around". One of the big 3 drives the lane and kicks it out for an open jumper and thats how they are getting the assists. As much as I am enjoying how we are playing, our offense isnt even close to as fluid as that of the Suns, or Spurs, or any of the other top teams.

[Lascar78]

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Are you watching the games? They aren't "whipping it around". One of the big 3 drives the lane and kicks it out for an open jumper and thats how they are getting the assists. As much as I am enjoying how we are playing, our offense isnt even close to as fluid as that of the Suns, or Spurs, or any of the other top teams.

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I agree. For all of the talk of ball movement, I don't see it that much. What I see is that earlier in the year JJ or Al would go 1-on-1 and put a shot up. Now they try to go 1-on-1, but if they have nowhere to go, they kick it out. That person either takes a jumper, or Al/JJ try to get the ball again and try to go 1-on-1 again.

I disagree about Melo though. Melo is a better scorer, but I think JJ is a better all around player today

[parvezf]

By the way, where is this rumor about Denver "buckling" and giving up Miller coming from anyway? It's not on Hoopshype or ESPN Insider. The only article remotely applicable states that Denver is officially a "major player" as of yesterday. How about a source or a link before this argument spirals out of control (I think it already has!).

[exodus]

That is how most open shots are created on any team, not just the Hawks. If all you do is pass it around the defense doesn't have to do much. But if someone drives and gets an advantage the defense has to rotate to help.

The defense cant rotate as fast as a passed ball and that is how most open shots are created. Others are created by movement off the ball.

Overall I think the Hawks offense has been going very well, considering their ball handling limitations. However they are still going to have to address the starting point situation. Ivey clearly won't work there.

I think their need of a big is much greater than their need of a pg though.

[Admin]

Thats what I am talking about, is offensively. Carmelo can drive around anyone and get to the rim. While his shot isnt close to as good as JJ from downtown, JJ isnt anywhere near the penetrator that Carmelo is.

JJ is hands down better defensively, but I was responding to KB calling Carmelo a black hole on offense, which he isn't. Hell I would say ZaZa is as much of a black hole on offense for us as Carmelo is for them, but I dont hear KB bitching about ZaZa putting it up most of the time he gets the ball.

[vdunkndunk]

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Andre is one of the slowest point guards in all of basketball. He would be a half court oriented point guard on a team that wants to get out and push the ball up the court whenever they can.

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I know you said you don't want stats, but hear me out anyway: The Nuggets led the league in fast break points last year and are on pace to do it again this year. And you know who leads the break on that league-leading team? That's right...Andre Miller. So why do you think he's a half court oriented point guard who doesn't want to push the ball?

By the way, Miller is also one of the best in the entire league at throwing lobs for slams, so basically he would be perfect for the Hawks. He's exactly what Smoove, Chill, and Marvin need.

[Admin]

I dont think there is a rumor. I think this is Diesel just hoping that this could happen, which I would be extremely happy about, but I am very doubtful it will actually happen.

[Nicholasp27]

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In fact, I would say Carmelo is at least as good as JJ, maybe even better.

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disagree

jj is much better defensively

jj is much a much better shooter

jj is more clutch

jj is more versatile

jj misses less games

jj doesn't throw balls at little girls in the stands

jj is a better passer

jj turns it over less in more mpg while also being a primary ballhandler

melo scores slightly more since he takes more attempts

melo also gets the 'star' calls that let him get easy fts more often

roland ratings: jj is 3.5 vs melo's 1.1

jj's +/-: +1.8

anthony's +/-: -9.1

jj is a +5.7 at sg (so does 5.7 better than his opp)

anthony is a +5.1 at sf (so does 5.1 better than his opp)

[Dakin]

OWNED

[Lascar78]

I'm not sure about the clutch one but I agree on all the other ones. JJ sure has missed a lot of clutch FT's. He's still learning to be a leader as it's his first season, whereas Melo has been a focal point from day 1

[KB21]

In what ways is Carmelo's talent better than Marvin's?

Marvin is a much better athlete. He's a much more well rounded player. He's not nearly as selfish as Carmelo. His per 40 stats during his freshman year were better than Carmelo's. He's a better rebounder, defender, and perimeter shooter.

Basically, Carmelo is a one trick pony, and that pony is his mid range jumper.

[Lascar78]

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That is how most open shots are created on any team, not just the Hawks. If all you do is pass it around the defense doesn't have to do much. But if someone drives and gets an advantage the defense has to rotate to help.

The defense cant rotate as fast as a passed ball and that is how most open shots are created. Others are created by movement off the ball.

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I disagree. There is much more to offense than just drive and dish. And we don't even do that well.

On a well oiled team, a man drives, and as the D collapses on him, he passes it out, hopefully to an open man. We do this sometimes. HOWEVER, on good teams, as the D rotates to cover that man, the offensive player can swing the ball around the perimeter to find the open man. That's simple stuff, and I honestly can't recall us doing it once all year. Once the ball is further rotated, the player who gets the ball might have a defender off balance or rotating, and he might shoot an open shot or drive to the hole. We never get to that point because we don't pass it. You're right that passing it only around the perimeter doesn't work. But it's a necessary part of the game and we don't even do it. We never pass it around the perimeter efficiently.

Also, with Al, he doesn't drive and dish because he spots an open man. He tries to go at it alone (either facing the hoop or with his back to it), and passes it out because he gets stuck, not because he sees an open man. At this point, the offense basically resets. That is very different from a team that keeps the ball moving until favorable matchups/situations occur.

We have gone from players going 1-on-1 to players going 1-on-1 and kicking it out when they get stuck. That is improvement, but it's still not great. JJ is better than Al of course, he does drive with the intent to create openings for others, although he's not that great at it yet.

Also, there are also lots of other ways to create good shots with ball movement and off the ball motion other than drive-and-dish but I don't see us doing much of it. I don't see us running the pick and roll that well. I don't see us hitting the Joshes when they shake their man and slash. I don't see off-the-ball screens where the screener steps back and receives a well-timed pass to get an open jumper. I don't see a man posting up, kicking it back out, and the ball rotating around to the other side to go back into the post for a better matchup

There are lots of things that I don't see.

Again, we're improving, and in particular Lue and Al are hogging the ball a little less. But for the most part I see a team gaining confidence and hitting shots, and I see a schedule that's gotten easier. And I think that causes many people to overlook our problems because we're winning. Our offensive sets as a whole still need a whole lot of work despite the numbers we're putting up.

I still think we need a PG in the worst way at some point

[exodus]

Wrong. Actually Carmelo's jumper is his weakness. The thing he does well is beat people off the dribble and get to the basket, or should I say foul line. He doesn't finish that well but his quickness and strength allow him to beat almost anyone off the dribble.

That is the big advantage he has over Marvin right now, strength. If Marvin gets stronger he will be able to take better advantage of his ball handling skills. Right now any contact throws him off.

And while Marvins shot looks good he has been very inconsistent so far.

JJ has been on a tear this month. It will be interesting to see how his end of season numbers compare with the other top players. His november numbers hurt him but that may be, in hindsight, the inevitable adjustment period he had to get through.