Dre' Miller to Atlanta??

[Dakin]

It blows my mind that people are already calling Marvin Williams a bust. Blows my mind. Give the kid a chance. He's gonna be great.

[exodus]

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On a well oiled team, a man drives, and as the D collapses on him, he passes it out, hopefully to an open man. We do this sometimes. HOWEVER, on good teams, as the D rotates to cover that man, the offensive player can swing the ball around the perimeter to find the open man.

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That is what I mean. It is the initial advantage created by the move to score that creates the defensive rotations. However the first pass isn't always the one that leads to an open shot.

While JJ isn't a legit pg his playmaking ability does give the Hawks more options trying to find a starting pg. I don't think they need a "pure" pg with the total court vision. Those guys are in short supply anyway. However they need to do better than Ivey.

What they really need is someone that can guard the position. During the last 10 games they have scored 102 ppg which is great....until you consider the fact that they have given up 105 ppg.

[Lascar78]

There are only a handful of people who think Marvin is a bust, and I don't think exodus is one of them. Certainly no one has said that in this thread. I think Marvin needs a good 2 years to show what he can be. He may be great or may be a bust. That doesn't change the fact that Melo is much better and more skilled than Marvin as of today. That is not insulting Marvin's potential, it's just stating today's fact. We drafted Marvin for the future, and that's ok. But we shouldn't be delusional about his talent as of today. He has a great jumper and a great handle, but he doesn't yet know how to use them.

Most here are optimistic about Marvin's potential. For the most part (other than Diesel and 2-3 others) you only hear people arguing against Marvin in response to KB's distorted view of how skilled Marvin is as of today and refusal to acknowledge how well Paul is playing.

[exodus]

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It blows my mind that people are already calling Marvin Williams a bust. Blows my mind. Give the kid a chance. He's gonna be great.

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Where did I say he was a bust? Because i said he isn't as strong as Anthony that means I think he is a bust?

If you want to make a comment like that direct it at Diesel. I don't think anyone on the board dislikes the Marvin pick more than him.

[Lascar78]

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While JJ isn't a legit pg his playmaking ability does give the Hawks more options trying to find a starting pg. I don't think they need a "pure" pg with the total court vision. Those guys are in short supply anyway. However they need to do better than Ivey.

What they really need is someone that can guard the position. During the last 10 games they have scored 102 ppg which is great....until you consider the fact that they have given up 105 ppg.

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First, I agree that we need better D at the 1. But if it was that simple we'd be playing Ivey all game.

I agree that pure PG's are in very short supply, but here we would be given the chance to get a top 4 assist guy in the league. For the record I don't think Denver is offering this, but it's still worth debating. He loves to score, but is as good a passer as anyone in the game. The scarcity of good passing PG's makes Miller that much more valuable.

As for JJ, he's the best on the team at driving and kicking, but he's really taylor made to be the recipient of that pass. If we have a PG who can drive and dish to JJ, defenders have to respect his shot and then they will have to overplay him and he can drive at will.

I really think we need a pure PG and a defensive center. A pure PG will improve JJ, the joshes, and Marvin, basically the offense as a whole. A defensive big man does wonders for the team D as a whole.

[VDiLetto]

There is no way that Denver trades away its starting PG who is one of the best PGs in the league and all we give up is AL harrington. I'm sorry, but we could never pull that over on anyone. Just becaause people have pulled silly trades over on us in the past doesn't mean we can do it too. Not everyone has a Babcock for a GM. We are not getting Andre Miller no matter how much we want him.

[KB21]

Wrong.

Carmelo is only more experienced than Marvin at this point. He is not more skilled. Putting up better numbers at this point does not equate to skill level.

That's like saying Glenn Robinson was more skilled than Tracy McGrady back in 1997 simply because he was putting up better numbers.

[exodus]

You do realize they are talking about a 3way right?

I agree it is unlikely but I don't think it is inconceivable that Denver would trade Miller if they could get back Artest.

I have no problem with Miller as a player but his age and contract would probably stop BK from pulling the trigger.

[Nicholasp27]

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There is no way that Denver trades away its starting PG who is one of the best PGs in the league and all we give up is AL harrington.

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denver would be getting RON ARTEST...if they feel he won't be trouble, then they are getting a TOP TEN player in the league for dre miller

indy is fine with artest for harrington...we could do that today...but we don't want artest

artest IS worth dre miller and denver will prolly pull the trigger after trying to bluff bk a few days/weeks more

[DeacKillsaDevil]

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I think we have something good going.

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We've won 7 games. Something good is not going yet.

[Nicholasp27]

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I really think we need a pure PG and a defensive center. A pure PG will improve JJ, the joshes, and Marvin, basically the offense as a whole. A defensive big man does wonders for the team D as a whole.

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the great thing about al for artest for dre/nene is we can kill 2 birds with one stone

this year, we get the pg AND smoove becomes our main pf, which improves our team D GREATLY, especially as he improves in his role

AND, we can get one of the best man-to-man defenders at the 4/5 in the league

so our offense/defense improves this year AND next

and then we can draft one of the pgs to groom behind dre

[Lascar78]

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There is no way that Denver trades away its starting PG who is one of the best PGs in the league and all we give up is AL harrington. I'm sorry, but we could never pull that over on anyone. Just becaause people have pulled silly trades over on us in the past doesn't mean we can do it too. Not everyone has a Babcock for a GM. We are not getting Andre Miller no matter how much we want him.

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Well in the 3 way, trading Miller for Artest makes sense for Denver. Artest is more talented if they're willing to risk it, and they have 2 good PG's left.

For Indy, Al is about as good a deal as they'll get as they have to trade Ron and Al knows their team.

And as I said, I don't think this is happening, but it's still interesting to discuss. It's not completely impossible like the "we're going to get Kobe" type topics, just somewhat unlikely

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the great thing about al for artest for dre/nene is we can kill 2 birds with one stone

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Yeah I would do that in a heartbeat. Not sure that Denver would. I mean they are going to lose Nene, but they might be able to get something for him in the offseason. I think they might do watson/nene, might do miller, but miller/nene seems like much for the risk that artest brings. But who knows?

[DeacKillsaDevil]

What has Nene done to warrant such attention?

[exodus]

The Hawks need a defensive big and that is what Nene is. And while I am not completely sold on +/- stats Nene did have the best +/- on the team his first two seasons.

[Lascar78]

He is a young, big, strong, great defender with decent offense that we have a shot at getting.

[Lascar78]

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That's like saying Glenn Robinson was more skilled than Tracy McGrady back in 1997 simply because he was putting up better numbers.

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Glenn Robinson was EASILY more skilled than TMac in 97. Easily.

I don't think you understand what skill is

skill n.

1. Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.

Potential is not skill. Size is not skill.

Marvin's only skills as of today are shooting and dribbling. He does not have all the other skills that would elevate those two skills into a complete and useful game.

[KB21]

He may be big, strong, and a solid man up defender, but he is a poor shot blocker (due to his lack of jumping ability), a below average rebounder, and is horrible offensively.

The only offensive contribution you get from Nene is when he gets quick baskets on fast breaks. That fits, but he has no low post offensive game to speak of and no jumper. He can defend two positions, but that's about the limit of his versatility.

[Lascar78]

his shotblocking doesn't bother me because he's an excellent defender. We need a solid big to hold his own against the big studs in the league without needing a constant double team. His offense is decent, and will get you 10-15 points, nothing special, but we have a ton of scorers already. The only concern would be rebounding, but I'm not willing to wait for 10 years for the perfect young big man. He's about as good as we can get depending on your opinion of Aldridge, and I think we should go for it if given the chance. You're right that he's not versatile, but not everyone has to be and even BK knows that. Versatility is the last thing I'm looking for in a big man, even if it's something that I like in my 1-4

[Admin]

better than what Marvin has done in all but 1 game this year (against backups as well). Do you realize how good Carmelo was his rookie year? Do you realize that he single handedly carried an under talented Cuse' team to the national title as a freshman? Do you realize that there isnt a defender in the league that can stop him from getting to the basket? Do you realize that Carmelo is actually a good guy and his teammates love him, unlike who you compare him to (Glenn Robinson)? I realize that you like to bash Carmelo because you cant appreciate his game, but please dont make stupid statements about him when trying to defend Marvin.

[Lascar78]

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Do you realize that Carmelo is actually a good guy

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We can agree to strongly disagree here. I think Carmelo is the only guy I hate in the league now. Kobe has been downgraded to a strong annoyance. Just a few of the things that make me dislike Carmelo:

-his complaining at not making the all star team as a rookie, naming a player who he said should not be there and he should replace

-being in the "no snitching" video

-his complaining about playing time while representing the country on team USA, embarassing everyone involved

-getting busted flying with weed and having a friend take the fall for him

-his throwing a ball at a little girl's head in the crowd

-while our drumline (of 12 year olds or so) came out for the player intros, he's the only player ever who kept shooting around them, and then started walking around them and staring them down, trying to intimidate them or something. Totally uncalled for

just to name a few. But he's still much more skilled than Marvin today