Hawks rotation

[exodus]

We have all had questions about Woodson's rotation. Here is an article about in in the AJC:

For Hawks, it's about rotation

Defined roles add to comfort level

By SEKOU SMITH

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 01/10/06

It's become a running joke for his players, the playing rotation Hawks coach Mike Woodson has crafted over the past month.

"We laugh about it in a good way," said Hawks reserve forward Josh Childress. "Salim [stoudamire] will come up to me at the four minute mark and say, 'You're going into the game in the next 30 seconds.'

"But one of the biggest things is that there is some continuity and rhythm to it. Everybody knows what to expect."

Woodson just might get the last laugh. Because the Hawks have flourished since he cut his rotation from 10 and 11 players to just nine.

The Hawks are 7-6 in the 13 games since Woodson started using his starters and just four reserves.

"I think that [condensed rotation] has something to do with our recent success and it does give everybody a comfort zone," said Woodson, whose team will host Boston tonight at Philips Arena. "When you know exactly when you're coming into a game and basically how many minutes you're going to play it definitely provides some sort of comfort zone.

"We're trying to rotate things around Al [Harrington] and Joe [Johnson]. And for the most part we're getting consistent play from the nine guys I'm playing."

Childress said the preset rotation allows the reserves - he, Stoudamire, veteran point guard Tyronn Lue and rookie forward Marvin Williams - to enter games on a specific mission, depending on the circumstances.

"If Joe has it going or Al has it going, then my role and Marvin's and Salim's role is to come in and play defense and help sustain that energy," Childress said. "And if we're lagging or behind, it's my job to bring more energy, to make a concentrated effort and fly around all over the floor and get us some hustle plays. The whole thing is it allows you to see what's needed and provide exactly that."

Some starters play fewer minutes than their backups. But since players know the plan before the game starts, there's little room for griping. And no one can admit to not knowing what's expected of them, a common refrain during the Hawks' 2-16 start.

"There's no question everybody knows their roles," starting point guard Royal Ivey said. "And you know the minutes you're going to be contributing each night so you're not going out there with a blank page in front of you. I'm going to be in there for eight to 10 minutes a night and [Tyronn] Lue will get the bulk of the minutes and Salim will fill in the rest.

"So you come into every game knowing what to do and how we need to execute when the ball goes up in the air."

Ivey is the poster child for the Hawks' new approach. He averages just under 10 minutes per game while Lue plays 24-plus and Stoudamire just under 20.

An argument could made for more time for Ivey, who plays most, if not all, of his minutes at the start of the game and the start of the third quarter.

He's committed just two turnovers in his last 150 minutes of action, a span of 14 games. He hasn't had a turnover in the Hawks' last five games.

"I expect every guy on this team to be ready when called upon," Woodson said. "That's their responsibility as professionals. But we've settled on a nine-man rotation, that's based largely on what guys are doing on the floor, that's worked well for us."

NINE TIMES

Hawks coach Mike Woodson has employed a nine-man rotation the past month that has helped the Hawks recover from a dismal start to post

a 7-6 record in their past 13 games. The nine players and their minutes per game:

Joe Johnson 39:37

Al Harrington 37:14

Zaza Pachulia 31:17

Josh Childress 27:09

Josh Smith 26:46

Tyronn Lue 24:19

Marvin Williams 21:53

Salim Stoudamire 19:38

Royal Ivey 9:50

[Nicholasp27]

i don't mind the set rotation; it's working well and it's something that provides guidance and structure for our uber-young team

however, i'd like to see him extend ivey's mins in the rotation to at least 12-15mpg

[Lascar78]

yeah I'd like to see Ivey get minutes, and I like the short rotation. But I have a big problem with who is on the floor in clutch situations at times, and benching players who are on fire just because it's that time. Woody has a looooong way to go before he gets my respect. I had very high hopes when he came here but he hasn't shown me anything

[CrawDaddy]

I don't mind cutting the amount of guys in the rotation down to nine. However, I have a HUGE problem with playing guys a set amount of minutes or determining before a game exactly at what point they are going to come into the game.

A coach has to play guys based on what is happening in a certain game. If defense is needed on a PG, you play Ivey more. If we are sputtering on offense, you play Lue or Salim more. One of my biggest problems with Woodson is lack of change durring the ebb and flow of a game.

If Salim is hot, he still takes him out because that's what he planned to do well before the game ever started.

If Speedy Claxton is killing us by driving to the hole every time, he leaves Ivey rotting on the bench.

I think that some of this lays on the assistant coaches. At some point, you would think Herb Brown would grow some balls and say, "Woody I think we should leave so and so in the game. He's playing really well right now." Unfortunately, it never happens.

[exodus]

Ivey's 10 minutes are a bit of a joke. If i was him i would be a little insulted. I don't think i have ever seen a starter consistently play so few minutes.

I also think you need some leeway to change the rotation depending on the game. Last game Smith was hitting every shot he put up in the first half but he had to come out at a set time.

I think at least part of the reason Woodson is doing this is because they are such a young team and had chemistry issues to start the year. I am hoping he will become more flexible.

[Nicholasp27]

i'm ok with it if it's temporary to inject some structure into the game for these young guys

if he does this for 20 or so games so they feel more comfortable when out on the floor (seems this part is working so far), then fine

but at some point you need to then expand out from that foundation...u need to start playing the hot guys longer than the set may call for...u need to take out players for extremely poor play or selfish play sometimes...u need to change up the sets some due to the other teams' players

if u leave it like this long-term, teams can go into the game planning on who they'll play when and where to most exploit mismatches...they'll know that lue is in from minute x to minute y...that chill is in from minute a to minute b...so they can plan accordingly

if it's a plan with a few phases, then i'm in favor of it...if he's gonna get set in his ways, then that'll be bad

phase 1: games 1-20 -> mess around with rotations, letting everyone play with different guys in different situations as people get used to each other and to the game and the team and you see where everyone is and who plays well with who and in what circumstances

phase 2: games 20-40 -> tighten up the rotation and set specific rotation assignments and specific roles for specific players; let everyone get used to some structure and play in the flow of the game and the team concept; create a solid foundation for the team to work off of and to go back to if things get chaotic again

phase 3: games 40-60 -> loosen up some and give the guys some freedom to expand their role some, if capable; let them stay in longer if hot; if some players aren't doing well to end games, try different players there to find your best end-game team

phase 4: games 60+ -> leave the rotation in place as a virtual foundation, but allow for drastic changes based on lineup matchups and mismatch exploitations; hot players get to do their thing and you keep trying things that are working until they stop working; if things get outta control or other reasons dictate, you can still revert back to the foundation on an as-needed basis

[Nicholasp27]

note: larry brown is doing this in nyk as well; anybody remember who started it first? did larry brown announce it before woody started doing this? or did he announce it within the last 13 games after woody was already doing it?

[Dragitoff]

I don't care if Al gets less than 10 minutes a game. If the team is winning, that's all that matters. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The team is over .500 since he's implemented it. As long as that trend continues, I'd leave it as is. If things start to go back to the way they were, then make the adjustment.

[Diesel]

Ivey is the poster child.

Woody is really saying that Ivey can be 6-6 with 5 steals and 3 assist in the first 8 minutes of the game and he will be yanked by minute 10 and won't hit the floor again.

This is my problem with Woody's set rotation. I think that it's a good diagnostic when you don't know the players abilities, however, we're pasted that. After a while, the players won't give much effort because there is no reward. I think it has been shown by championship teams that you reward players for good play and you definitely keep the hot hand on the floor.

[Nicholasp27]

well we aren't a championship team...and we are an extremely young team that wasn't working well together or even individually for awhile and was having long lapses

this rotation has fixed a lot of that and provides a good foundation for the players and something to fall back on in rough times

however, he needs to, VERY SOON, start keeping the hot hand in and rewarding players for good play with more minutes

if he doesn't do that soon (by end of month), then i'll be very disappointed and upset

i don't wanna look at the substitutions in february and see the same exact ones as in december every single game

[Diesel]

Even on our level...

it's stupid to continue to play players based on your clock. You have to actually look up and see what's happening in the game.

The reason this rotation has worked is because it doesn't effect the vets on the team... i.e. Al, JJ, and Lue. If they were involved in this rotation such as Al or JJ reduced to 24 mpg, there would definitely be some bellyaching. Woody can get away with this with our younger players because they are young and they believe it's to their advantage. What it really spells is that there are log jams on our team and we also have holes. We don't know how to play everybody except we portion off your time on the court. It kinda works by BK's theory of versatility.

However, when you're not aware of a player being the right player on the floor in the right time... then you're really not coaching. It's amazing that we have won games with this coaching philosophy.. I would bet if we went to a more standard Philosophy we would win more games.

Do you know why Lenny would win so many games with what seemed like a mediocre team? Lenny was a master of taking advantage of matchups. Woody is the exact opposite. He doesn't even recognize Matchup advantages. This is why our guards get torched when Ivey is off the floor.

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

it's stupid to continue to play players based on your clock. You have to actually look up and see what's happening in the game.

---

Agreed. It makes sense to have a general trend that you follow when you have no reason to do otherwise. But on any given night you should be paying attention to how particular matchups are going, who's having a great night or an off-night, and change your lineup based on that. There is no justification for a definitive time-based substitution pattern. None. I don't care that the team is young.

Also, the .500 record has a lot to do with it being the soft patch of the schedule.

[Nicholasp27]

well then, i think for the first time ever, we'll have to disagree

i think it's fine if he needs to do this TEMPORARILY in order to create a foundation for our guys; but i think it's not a good long-term, or even >20 games, plan

[Diesel]

One coaching Philosophy that I really love from football is what the Genius did in San Fran..

He would go through about a qtr to 1.5 qtrs worth of set plays. He would diagnose what works.. Then he would build the rest of his game plan around that. Progressive coaching.

Well, Woody gets his players in but he doesn't do any in-game diagnostics and he definitely doesn't change to what works. The philosophy stinks... I don't know why Nick is trying to defend it!

[chillzatl]

But he's not going to do it just because Ivey plays well, in his given role, for a few games at a time.

As good as he's been recently, in his limited role, I've seen him look like a turd sandwich out there. So I see no problems with letting him get comfortable in that role and slowly expand it for him as he shows he can handle it.

[exodus]

Quote:

---

well then, i think for the first time ever, we'll have to disagree

---

This is my nomination for quote of the day.

[Nicholasp27]

when did i defend the philosophy?

do u even read what people post?

i said it's fine for a few games (

i've said it's a BAD idea for this to be a long-term solution, but is OK if he's phasing in the system that will allow flexibility for mismatches and good play...if this is how he gets the players to learn their roles and buy-in to the system, then what's wrong with that? the only problem is if he's still using the same sub patterns and time markers in late january on

[Packfill]

So basically in cutting the rotation back from 11 to 9 Woodson cut out Batista and Edwards.

Sheer brilliance in determining that those two stiffs shouldn't play. Coach of the year candidate for sure.

Woodson needs to go back to the drawing board to find more minutes for Ivey at the point - I want him to get 20+ a night for two weeks or so to see if he can actually play.

[Traceman]

We are 7-6 the way he is doing it now. What the heck is the problem? I LOVE the idea and I hope he continues to stick with this basic formula. Obviously he can (and does) modify the formula a little bit based on what is happening in the game but having a structure for his rotation keeps everyone happy. Many players around the league gripe about inconsistent minutes and this basically eliminates that.

Someone (maybe you) said that this rotation hid the fact that this team has too many guys who play the same positions. Well, I guess that is one way to look at it but I choose to look at it from the positive side. In my opinion, one of the biggest problems this team had was the fact that we have so many guys who can play multiple positions and because of that, no one seemed to know what their role was. Now, everyone knows their roles and we are seeing guys who can play multiple positions do just that - with success.

My implementing the so-called "set" rotation, Woodson has effectively defined the roles for everyone. JJ and Al are THE MEN. Zaza brings rebounding on both ends, toughness, hustle and a surprising amount of offense. Smoove is our "poor man's Kirilenko" and brings a little bit of everything to the table. Ivey is our tempo-setter to start both halves by bringing defensive pressure. Off the bench, Lue is the veteran presence who brings organization to the 2nd unit. He also brings an offensive spark. Chillz is the "fix it" guy who comes in and provides whatever the team has been lacking be it rebounding, hustle, defense and sometimes scoring. Salim is instant offense and 3 point shooting. Marvin is the "x-factor." He is inconsistent as youngsters tend to be but he brings a lot of skills to the table and he can provide shooting, rebounding and he ability to defend multiple positions depending on matchups.

[mudderfudder77]

Quote:

---

Ivey's 10 minutes are a bit of a joke. If i was him i would be a little insulted. I don't think i have ever seen a starter consistently play so few minutes.

I also think you need some leeway to change the rotation depending on the game. Last game Smith was hitting every shot he put up in the first half but he had to come out at a set time.

I think at least part of the reason Woodson is doing this is because they are such a young team and had chemistry issues to start the year. I am hoping he will become more flexible.

---

Rafael Araujo? Avgs 11.5 minutes a game...