Raptors fire Rob Babcock

KB21 · January 26, 2006

What is it about Marvin Williams's upside do you guys not like?

You know what I see in a team that has Chris Paul, Josh Howard, and Luol Deng as the key cogs? I see a team that will be the 8th seed every year and get put out in the first round.

With Marvin Williams in the fold, I see a team that has the potential superstar that championship teams are built around. Josh Childress is an excellent role player that is simply a better athlete and more versatile player than Luol Deng is. Josh Howard is also a one trick pony that has no versatility to his game, which is why BK went with Boris Diaw, who simply brought more versatility to the table than Josh Howard.

Like I said though. Babcock is available. Maybe he would draft the players you wanted, ignoring the better talent in the process.

KB21 · January 26, 2006

...and I think you are stupid for having that opinion.

AHF · January 26, 2006

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a Babcock is the only GM that would have taken Chris Paul over Marvin Williams.

Oh, HELLLLLLLL NO.

Pete Babcock couldn't draft a good player to save his life. Paul looks like a very good player. He would not have gone after Paul. He would have traded the pick for Lorenzen Wright before doing that. Don't even try to bolster your insane bashing of Paul by linking it to legitimate bashing of Babcock.

Also, Villanueva was the one pick that Babcock got right. The only possible criticism of that pick is that Babcock might have been able to get Charlie with his next pick and thus wasted an opportunity to get Channing Frye in addition to Villanueva. It is too early to be conclusive with any pick but it sure looks like Rob Babcock pulled a great example of being smarter than the critics with that pick.

Packfill · January 26, 2006

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...and I think you are stupid for having that opinion.

Name calling. Very grown up of you.

When should we expect results?

Diesel · January 26, 2006

I'm not defending the guy.

I want the Hawks to be in NJ's position where people would say HOW we STOLE JJ away from Phoenix for 2 1st and Diaw.

About his picks.

I like the Charlie V. pick. Charlie V. has yet to disappoint and who else would you have gotten? Frye said that he would not play for the Raps... Granger... How does he help?

Plainview1981 · January 26, 2006

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http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2307240

Maybe some of you can get your wish. There's another Babcock available. Maybe we can get him and go back to our drafting ways of old, where we ignored talent and went for what was considered to be the more ready player.

Check out Billy's caeer win/loss record as a gm.... I doubt it's any worse than BIlly's. I hope you enjoy the Hawks losing because they are going to continue to do it for years.

Lascar78 · January 26, 2006

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That is one of his mistakes, he also took Diaw over Josh Howard

I'm not sure that that is a mistake. At the time, ownership would not let him rebuild and wanted him to work with what we have. If he had to keep JT, Diaw was a great pick to make up for JT's shortcomings (lack of playmaking). He then got the green light to rebuild and got rid of JT, who was basically the reason for Diaw. I still think Diaw was a good pick. If anything, he failed to put Diaw in a situation where he could succeed (different coach? more freedom?). The pick is good though

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let Terry Stotts walk for no reason

This franchise was a mess and he got the green light to scrap it all and start over. Firing Terry Stotts was part of a "get rid of anyone who ever met babcock/kasten move meant to send the league a signal that this is a new place worth considering once again. I think that that made sense as part of an overall overhaul to attract FA's by convincing them to give us a second chance, that we are committed to winning in the long run. I don't think Stotts is all that good anyhow. Now he has a good team so he's doing pretty well, but I don't think we let a gem get away or anything. If there's anyone I wish we had held on to, it's mussleman. Sure Stotts is better than Woody, but that's not saying much

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and took Marvin over Paul.

time will tell that one. If Marvin turns out to be the stud that he can be, it won't be a mistake. If Marvin never improves, this is certainly his biggest blunder, but it is not fair to judge Marvin now when we knew he was a project player. More risk, more potential. Nobody knew how good Paul would be

My only problems with BK are:

-picking Chill over Iggy

-sticking with Woody even though it is increasingly obvious that he is bad

-refusal to acknowledge our need for a PG to facilitate the growth of our youth

I think people will be looking much more kindly on BK a year from now, as we should do much better if we can beef up our lineup, with or without a PG.

That being said, he is certainly not the flawless revolutionary genius that KB thinks he is.

TROUBLEMAN69 · January 26, 2006

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What is it about Marvin Williams's upside do you guys not like?

I don't have a problem with Marvin, I simply feel that Paul was a better pick, and will have a greater impact on his team.

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You know what I see in a team that has Chris Paul, Josh Howard, and Luol Deng as the key cogs? I see a team that will be the 8th seed every year and get put out in the first round.

You know what i see in a team that has Marvin Williams, Joe Johnson (Diaw), Childress, and owing the Suns two first round picks? Well we already know the answer because we are currently watching it. See, but the difference in you and I is I understand both versions would be incomplete, but I like the way the pieces in my version fit better than the current pieces. My vision could still include Joe Johnson because Howard is "versatile" enough to play the 2 or the 3.

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With Marvin Williams in the fold, I see a team that has the potential superstar that championship teams are built around.

I don't see Marvin as a championshp caliber superstar, but simply a very good player (shareef/Jamison) who could be a piece to a contending team. I have seen nothing in two years of watching Marvin that would make me believe that you can build around him.

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Josh Childress is an excellent role player that is simply a better athlete and more versatile player than Luol Deng is.

Yeah, and that is why in fewer minutes per game Deng is averaging more points and rebounds than Childress. Deng is by no means a finished product, so I'm not understanding why the potential word is not used with him.

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Josh Howard is also a one trick pony that has no versatility to his game, which is why BK went with Boris Diaw, who simply brought more versatility to the table than Josh Howard.

Yeah, but the fact of the matter is he is a better PLAYER than Boris Diaw. Diaws defense is overrated, so the only thing he is truly better than Howard in is passing ability. Howard is a much better scorer and their rebounding is about the same. Again, a dumb pick by Knight.

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Like I said though. Babcock is available. Maybe he would draft the players you wanted, ignoring the better talent in the process.

I don't want anybody named Babcock ever associated with the Hawks again, but with that being said the jury is still out on whether we received the better talent so far. Right now we are on the short end of the stick.

AHF · January 26, 2006

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I don't want anybody named Babcock ever associated with the Hawks again, but with that being said the jury is still out on whether we received the better talent so far. Right now we are on the short end of the stick.

Better talent than what?

TROUBLEMAN69 · January 26, 2006

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I'm not sure that that is a mistake. At the time, ownership would not let him rebuild and wanted him to work with what we have. If he had to keep JT, Diaw was a great pick to make up for JT's shortcomings (lack of playmaking). He then got the green light to rebuild and got rid of JT, who was basically the reason for Diaw. I still think Diaw was a good pick. If anything, he failed to put Diaw in a situation where he could succeed (different coach? more freedom?). The pick is good though

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The pick was horrible for this team. If ownership was not letting the Hawks rebuild, then they should have went for the guy who was more ready to contribute, which was Howard. The Hawks needed a 2 or 3, and Howard would have fit right in.

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This franchise was a mess and he got the green light to scrap it all and start over. Firing Terry Stotts was part of a "get rid of anyone who ever met babcock/kasten move meant to send the league a signal that this is a new place worth considering once again. I think that that made sense as part of an overall overhaul to attract FA's by convincing them to give us a second chance, that we are committed to winning in the long run. I don't think Stotts is all that good anyhow. Now he has a good team so he's doing pretty well, but I don't think we let a gem get away or anything. If there's anyone I wish we had held on to, it's mussleman. Sure Stotts is better than Woody, but that's not saying much

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Still don't get the hype surrounding Musselman on this board. In my opinion Stotts was just as good as Musselman, who did nothing with the Warriors for me to understand the hype. I also don't see how firing Stotts was going to help this team attract more free agents, because the fact of the matter is by firing him the Hawks simply looked like a team in flux. Now guys are calling for Woody's head after two seasons, despite the fact that the talent on this team is young and the Hawks are not even close to a playoff caliber team.

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time will tell that one. If Marvin turns out to be the stud that he can be, it won't be a mistake. If Marvin never improves, this is certainly his biggest blunder, but it is not fair to judge Marvin now when we knew he was a project player. More risk, more potential. Nobody knew how good Paul would be

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If Marvin turns out to be the player that most people expect or the stud that KB21/Billy Knight expect, because they seem to be two different things? At best Marvin will probably be a 20-22 ppg guy with about 7 boards per game from the small forward position. Good, but not the type of player that will lead a team to the championship. I see Paul as a 18-20 ppg 8-9 assist guy who will make others around him better. In the long run, I see Paul having the bigger impact.

TROUBLEMAN69 · January 26, 2006

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I don't want anybody named Babcock ever associated with the Hawks again, but with that being said the jury is still out on whether we received the better talent so far. Right now we are on the short end of the stick.

Better talent than what?

If the players we picked were better than the talent available.

AHF · January 26, 2006

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I don't want anybody named Babcock ever associated with the Hawks again, but with that being said the jury is still out on whether we received the better talent so far. Right now we are on the short end of the stick.

Better talent than what?

If the players we picked were better than the talent available.

Gotcha. That is an impossible standard, though. Even the very best GMs can't consistently take guys who are better than the talent available. A lot of the times even with the #1 overall pick you'd rather have "the field" than the pick if you have to get the best guy from the class.

Lascar78 · January 26, 2006

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You know what i see in a team that has Marvin Williams, Joe Johnson (Diaw), Childress, and owing the Suns two first round picks?

We only owe the suns one pick

KB21 · January 26, 2006

Wrong.

Marvin Williams and Joe Johnson give the Hawks a foundation they can build a championship team on.

Marvin Williams put up the best freshman season on a per minute basis in North Carolina history. Better than Jordan. Better than Worthy. Better than Jamison. Better than Carter. Better than Wallace. Better than Stackhouse. Marvin's per 40 minute numbers at North Carolina were right around 20 ppg and 12 rpg. That's as a true freshman. He averaged 1 point fewer and 2 rebounds more per game as a true freshman on a per 40 minute basis than Carmelo Anthony did as a true freshman at Syracuse. Marvin is also a much better shooter, ball handler, defender, and is a lot more athletic than Carmelo. He will be a much better player than Carmelo in time, and Carmelo is currently averaging 25 ppg.

Marvin Williams will be a small forward that gets 25+ points per game and close to 10 rebounds per game within the next 2-3 years. He will do that because of several key skills needed to do that:

1. He's got the long range shooting ability.

2. He's got the ability to dribble penetrate and pull up for the jumper.

3. He's got the ability to take his man off the dribble and drive the lane.

4. He's got the ability to post his man up and score inside.

5. He's got the ability to be a tremendous finisher in the open court.

6. He's got tremendous instincts for moving without the ball.

These skills only add to his 6'9", super athletic frame that has a 7'3" wingspan.

Marvin Williams is a rare player. You simply don't find many players that has his size, his athleticism, and his skill level.

I've seen nothing in Chris Paul that makes me think he will be any better over the long term than a slew of other point guards...Damon Stoudamire, Kenny Anderson, Terrell Brandon....you don't win championships with point guards. You win them with great players.

bralin1 · January 27, 2006