JJ = Elite SG!

[Plainview1981]

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than Kobe.

Kobe kills everything around him. How does Kobe-Shaq not beat Detroit. It wasn't because Detroit was a great team. It was because Detroit was a better team than LAL. That's Kobe's doing. Kobe has always wanted the circle.

Well he has had it for the last 2 years. And standing in the same shoes Tmac stood in last year, Kobe did exactly what I said he would... Wilted. This year... They might not make the playoffs. It's not that Kobe doesn't have talent around him... It's that he can't function next to talented players.

Tmac plays better when yao is in the game.

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It looks to me like Tmac has helped kill the Rockets... He has basically left Yao Ming to fight for himself.

[Plainview1981]

It's not that Kobe doesn't have talent around him... It's that he can't function next to talented players."

How many teams did Smush Parker start for? How many teams did Chris Mihm start for? Who would want Kwame Brown or Deaven George as a starter?

[Plainview1981]

JJ is a second tier SG right behind the best second tier SG in Paul Pierce.

[chillzatl]

Detroit was a better team, period. Shaq was not the same Shaq he had been. He was fat, out of shaq and simply NOT dominant. It was no more Kobe's doing than it was any one persons doing. They simply were not as good as detroit.

Kobe hasn't wilted at all. His team is in the 8th spot and he is a far more dominant player than Tmac has EVER been and ever will be. You're just speculating that "they might not" make the playoffs because that is what you want..spin doctor at work... -3 for such a lame attempt.

But right now they are in the playoffs. While Tmac, despite having a better overall team and one of the few true big men in the game, is not even close.

[Packfill]

Lets put things in perspective here, JJ is putting up great numbers on a below average team. He is putting up these numbers over a short stretch. Obviously his numbers over the last month or so are awesome but he needs to do it over a season or two before he can be labeled "elite." Until then, he is not in the same class as Kobe, Wade, Iverson, Pierce, Allen, etc.

Right now you need to lump him in with guys like Rip, Richardson, Redd.

He has the talent to be one of the best but lets not put the cart before the horse.

[Diesel]

No Shaq has three rings and if not for Shaq and Horry, Kobe would have nothing.

That's a theory that will be proved by the rest of Kobe's career...

[Diesel]

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You're just speculating that "they might not" make the playoffs because that is what you want..spin doctor at work... -3 for such a lame attempt.

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No. I'm speculating that they "Might Not" make the playoffs because the addition of Artest has made Sacramento stronger and Sac-Town has won 7 of their last 10 while LAL is in 8th place and are 5-5.

In the end it's going to be Utah, Sactown, LAL, and Houston fighting for that 8th spot. I just think Sac-Town is stronger than the rest.

[Duff_Man]

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No Shaq has three rings and if not for Shaq and Horry, Kobe would have nothing.

That's a theory that will be proved by the rest of Kobe's career...

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Well, what will your theory be when Shaq gets bounced from the playoffs this year?

And I find it funny that Horry gets credit, but Kobe doesn't.

[Lascar78]

come on now. They split up. Shaq was a game away from the finals (probably would have made the finals if it wasnt for him and wade being injured), kobe made the playoffs.

Clearly Kobe was the #2 guy (more important than Horry...), but clearly Shaq was THE REASON that they won those 3 rings. They wouldn't have gotten them if Kobe was just cut, but you could plug a number of talented 2 guards in with a prime shaq and they would have won rings.

Also, Kobe's play isn't the reason that they lost to the pistons, but his attitude is. His general selfishness, and his ratting shaq out to the cops is the reason that that whole lockerroom turned to a total disaster that year. They weren't able to overcome that and be focused enough. Shaq's body was also worn down from 3 title runs, but I'm inclined to believe that they win #4 if it was a harmonious locker room in which they could focus on winning.

San Antonio was the best team that year anyway, but LA was able to pull it together just long enough to beat them before collapsing.

[Duff_Man]

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come on now. They split up. Shaq was a game away from the finals (probably would have made the finals if it wasnt for him and wade being injured), kobe made the playoffs.

Clearly Kobe was the #2 guy (more important than Horry...), but clearly Shaq was THE REASON that they won those 3 rings. They wouldn't have gotten them if Kobe was just cut, but you could plug a number of talented 2 guards in with a prime shaq and they would have won rings.

Also, Kobe's play isn't the reason that they lost to the pistons, but his attitude is. His general selfishness, and his ratting shaq out to the cops is the reason that that whole lockerroom turned to a total disaster that year. They weren't able to overcome that and be focused enough. Shaq's body was also worn down from 3 title runs, but I'm inclined to believe that they win #4 if it was a harmonious locker room in which they could focus on winning.

San Antonio was the best team that year anyway, but LA was able to pull it together just long enough to beat them before collapsing.

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So niether of them has won a ring without the other...or a coach named "Jackson".

[Duff_Man]

And, wait a minute...this was supposed to be a thread patting JJ on the back...not a battle of what All-Star could care less.

Joe Johnson is becoming a great player right before our eyes...I am worried what Lue may do to the harmony when he returns. Hopefully they won't miss a beat.

[Lascar78]

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So niether of them has won a ring without the other...or a coach named "Jackson".

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One of them has LED a team to 3 titles, while one of them has never led a team to the playoffs. That's the bottom line.

You can't just look at rings or kerr and horry and say they're are all-time greats. It's about who was doing the heavy lifting on title teams. Those teams were all about a prime shaq carrying them to titles. Kobe was a nice #2 guy

[Duff_Man]

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So niether of them has won a ring without the other...or a coach named "Jackson".

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One of them has LEAD a team to 3 titles, while one of them has never led a team to the playoffs. That's the bottom line.

You can't just look at rings or kerr and horry are all-time greats. It's about who was doing the heavy lifting on title teams. Those teams were all about a prime shaq carrying them to titles. Kobe was a nice #2 guy

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I am looking at the 2001 Lakers playoff averages...Other than rebounds, they are awfully close. I know stats don't tell the whole story, but I think they had an even shake. Especially with Shaq making $9M per year more than Kobe.

I will concede the 2000 Lakers were all Shaq, but after that it was a wash IMO.

[joannes3000]

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And, wait a minute...this was supposed to be a thread patting JJ on the back...not a battle of what All-Star could care less.

Joe Johnson is becoming a great player right before our eyes...I am worried what Lue may do to the harmony when he returns. Hopefully they won't miss a beat.

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Whoops, the thread seems to have disappeared. JJ is definitely ready to get into the first tier of SGs next year.

I'm thinking that with the team gelling like it has, adding Lue would be like the Pistons adding 'Sheed. It will prove to be the missing piece to our puzzle for the year, which unfortunately is only further evaluation and not a playoff run - yet. Can we get away with Lue as the starting PG next year? Probably in some aspects but not enough to be the longterm answer. But if he allows us to concentrate fully on going after a C this offseason, I think the mission would be accomplished.

[Nicholasp27]

oh god

please no more lue

i'm happy with lue on the IL

[AHF]

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come on now. They split up. Shaq was a game away from the finals (probably would have made the finals if it wasnt for him and wade being injured), kobe made the playoffs.

Clearly Kobe was the #2 guy (more important than Horry...), but clearly Shaq was THE REASON that they won those 3 rings. They wouldn't have gotten them if Kobe was just cut, but you could plug a number of talented 2 guards in with a prime shaq and they would have won rings.

Also, Kobe's play isn't the reason that they lost to the pistons, but his attitude is. His general selfishness, and his ratting shaq out to the cops is the reason that that whole lockerroom turned to a total disaster that year. They weren't able to overcome that and be focused enough. Shaq's body was also worn down from 3 title runs, but I'm inclined to believe that they win #4 if it was a harmonious locker room in which they could focus on winning.

San Antonio was the best team that year anyway, but LA was able to pull it together just long enough to beat them before collapsing.

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So niether of them has won a ring without the other...or a coach named "Jackson".

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Shaq got to the NBA finals before coming to LA without Kobe or a coach named "Jackson." Does anyone really think that he wouldn't have won a championship without Kobe and Phil if he had some half-way decent talent supporting him throughout his prime years?

[Southern_Bred]

If JJ can get to the ft line more often (say atleast 7fta a game) then that will really help him taking that next step to elite status. Getting a couple of more rebounds a game won't hurt either.

[Buzzard]

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Shaq got to the NBA finals before coming to LA without Kobe or a coach named "Jackson." Does anyone really think that he wouldn't have won a championship without Kobe and Phil if he had some half-way decent talent supporting him throughout his prime years?

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Only halfway decent talent...no he would not. Now give him a hall a fame guard and a hall of fame coach and yes. Or give him a small handfull of all-stars like Detroit and NJ have and Indiana had, yes again.

But none of those examples are anywhere close to halfway talented....Halfway talented means middle road.

Maybe you have Duncan and Shaq confused. Duncan makes everyone around him better...Shaq is a great player, always has been... but he does not do what Duncan does in that regard.

I would take Duncan's quiet leadership by example style over Shaq's boisterous unfullfilled promises in any draft, any time, anywhere...now back to the topic.

JJ is worth every penny we supposedly overpayed him. And that is ALSO a great exclamation point that BK and not ESPN knows what the heck a NBA GM should be doing...

[Lascar78]

you are out of your mind. I think you have forgotten just how dominant Shaq was in his prime.

[AHF]

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you are out of your mind. I think you have forgotten just how dominant Shaq was in his prime.

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Agreed. I like Duncan's style better too but Shaq in his prime would have carried a lot of teams into the NBA finals. He did it in Orlando (who didn't do anything after he left) and he did it in LA (who were instantly contenders, won multiple championships and were contenders until the day he left and then promptly missed the playoffs). His team is a contender now, even though he is clearly past his prime.