Ivey getting exposed

[AHF]

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neither one is a distributor. Both can handle the rock. Lue can shoot and Ivey can play D. Neither one is a pure PG who can distribute

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Looking for pure pgs is like looking for pure centers..they don't exist...and that is because the definition is shotty. If you can shoot then you are not a pure pg i guess. I don't want a pg that avg 10 ppg and 8 assists. I want him to avg 20 ppg and 8 assists...or if he avgs only 15ppg, he has the potential to score 30 every night. I think you can put players in an offense to up his assist avg, but there is no way that you can teach people how to be a scorer, that is talent.

In other words, a good coach can teach Salim to run an offense, but all the coaching in the world won't give Ivey or Jack an offensive game.

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First, my definition of a pure point guard is different than yours. Mine has nothing to do with scoring ability. Magic Johnson could have averaged 30+ ppg and I consider him a true PG, for example. What defines a true point guard for me is that his first priority is making the offense run efficiently and raising the game of his teammates. That can apply to someone who is a terrific scorer like Steve Nash or someone who is offensively challenged like Jason Kidd. Likewise, no offense PGs are not necessarily true point guards just because they don't look to score.

Second, I totally disagree about anyone being able to be taught how to be a good point guard. IMO, there is no position where a natural feel for the game is more important. Some guys take longer to have things click (like Nash and Billups compared to say Paul and Kidd) but if you don't have a good feel for the game you are never going to be a great PG. IMO, Salim exhibits very little natural ability as a PG. He has very valuable skills and I like the guy but he isn't a point and I doubt he will ever be an effective PG. I do think he can play effectively, for example, with JJ at the PG and Salim providing some ball-handling support from the SG but that is very different than becoming a PG. Guys like Jason Terry and Salim Stoudamire are not true PGs no matter what their assist numbers tell you and it takes inherent talent to run an offense just like it takes inherent talent to score.

[Johnnybravo4]

After last night should there be any question about who should start?

[AHF]

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After last night should there be any question about who should start?

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Yeah. Salim is a great scorer and shooter and a subpar defender and passer. I think that his scoring ability and mentality (it is painful how much of a black hole he is at the PG position sometimes). He seems ideally suited to come into the game and deliver offense but not as well-suited to deferring to our best offensive players.

I still like the idea of starting with Ivey and putting Salim in after 10 minutes or so to inject offense.

I don't think Salim starting right now is a bad idea (although it wouldn't be my strategy since I see him as a "microwave" type) but that speaks more to the total lack of alternatives than it does to how good a fit he is as a starting guard on this team.

[Final_quest]

It's kind of a relief for Salim to finally show up as a scorer again. In college he seemed like such a pure shooter. To see him be so streaky has been kind of shocking to me.

[Diesel]

Last night, Salim hit big shots. But what happened when Salim went cold in the 3rd/4th?? We brought in Ivey and we made a comeback. Ivey is not the scorer that Salim is, but Salim cannot run an offense.

All Salim did is what he always does... Shoot shoot shoot. IN fact, it was more evident in the 2nd why Salim shouldn't be our pG. He got mad at Simmons/Ford and he decided that he would take every shot. It's painful to watch our offense set up an offensive set and Salim comes down and shoots. That's weather he hits or misses... It's painful...

I would trade him for Jarrett Jack in a heartbeat. Steve Blake too.

[Johnnybravo4]

How in the hell did you think we got back in the game in the first place? Salim and Josh kept it from being a 30 pt loss. That is what big time players do, when the 1st and 2nd option isn't working then it is up to you. What would you have Salim do..keep feeding the ball to JJ and Al and watch them continue to shoot bricks? Feed it to Zaza and watch him fumble another pass?

How many open looks did Ivey miss, how many times did he let Ford blow by him for easy layups? In fact the most pivotal possession of the game is when ford blows by Ivey for a dunk in the lane. Where was that stellar Ivey defense that I keep hearing about? He is effin garbage and I am tired of debating this S*it with you mindless people.

[Lascar78]

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First, my definition of a pure point guard is different than yours. Mine has nothing to do with scoring ability. Magic Johnson could have averaged 30+ ppg and I consider him a true PG, for example. What defines a true point guard for me is that his first priority is making the offense run efficiently and raising the game of his teammates. That can apply to someone who is a terrific scorer like Steve Nash or someone who is offensively challenged like Jason Kidd. Likewise, no offense PGs are not necessarily true point guards just because they don't look to score.

Second, I totally disagree about anyone being able to be taught how to be a good point guard. IMO, there is no position where a natural feel for the game is more important. Some guys take longer to have things click (like Nash and Billups compared to say Paul and Kidd) but if you don't have a good feel for the game you are never going to be a great PG. IMO, Salim exhibits very little natural ability as a PG. He has very valuable skills and I like the guy but he isn't a point and I doubt he will ever be an effective PG. I do think he can play effectively, for example, with JJ at the PG and Salim providing some ball-handling support from the SG but that is very different than becoming a PG. Guys like Jason Terry and Salim Stoudamire are not true PGs no matter what their assist numbers tell you and it takes inherent talent to run an offense just like it takes inherent talent to score.

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Awesome post. I couldn't agree more.

[Johnnybravo4]

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First, my definition of a pure point guard is different than yours. Mine has nothing to do with scoring ability. Magic Johnson could have averaged 30+ ppg and I consider him a true PG, for example. What defines a true point guard for me is that his first priority is making the offense run efficiently and raising the game of his teammates. That can apply to someone who is a terrific scorer like Steve Nash or someone who is offensively challenged like Jason Kidd. Likewise, no offense PGs are not necessarily true point guards just because they don't look to score.

Second, I totally disagree about anyone being able to be taught how to be a good point guard. IMO, there is no position where a natural feel for the game is more important. Some guys take longer to have things click (like Nash and Billups compared to say Paul and Kidd) but if you don't have a good feel for the game you are never going to be a great PG. IMO, Salim exhibits very little natural ability as a PG. He has very valuable skills and I like the guy but he isn't a point and I doubt he will ever be an effective PG. I do think he can play effectively, for example, with JJ at the PG and Salim providing some ball-handling support from the SG but that is very different than becoming a PG. Guys like Jason Terry and Salim Stoudamire are not true PGs no matter what their assist numbers tell you and it takes inherent talent to run an offense just like it takes inherent talent to score.

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Awesome post. I couldn't agree more.

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How in the hell then do you know that Salim won't develop like Nash and Billups? Or do you have a 6th sense for predicting natural ability?

As far as Magic goes, it is pretty easy rack up assists when you play with the

1. The greatest Center of all time (Kareem)

2. The greatest complimentary player of all time (Worthy)

3. One of the greatest spot up shooters of all time (Scott)

4. Hustle players like Rambis etc.

Not to take away anything from Magic but to be a good distributor you also have to have talented players who know where to be and have the ability to finish. Offensive scheme also makes a difference.

[AHF]

Are you seriously arguing that Magic's assists were merely a product of playing with great teammates? The man was amazing at setting people up. Of course it is easier to play with some great players but if you can't see that he did more than simply pass the ball to someone who put it in the hole and can't see that he ran that team and controlled the offense in a very good way, then I don't know what to say.

Unlike Nash and Billups, Stoudamire has never been a distributor at any level of the game and he has shown less natural passing ability than the younger Josh Smith. I wouldn't say he could never develop like someone like Billups but what I have seen from Salim makes me think his ability to run the offense and distribute the ball is a weakness to be overcome rather than an asset to be developed. His shooting, on the other hand, has been through some rough spots during the year but is a clearly a natural talent that will be developed into a deadly NBA skill.

C'mon, though, and give Magic, Stockton, etc. the credit they deserve and don't try to make it seem like they aren't true point guards in the sense I described above just because they had some HOFs as teammates.

[AHF]

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How in the hell then do you know that Salim won't develop like Nash and Billups? Or do you have a 6th sense for predicting natural ability?

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How the hell do you know that Ivey won't start shooting like Salim next game? Do you have a 6th sense for predicting natural ability?

Seriously, you can make reasonable predictions based on what you see. Ivey is a subpar shooter. It is theortically possible but unlikely that he will develop into a shooter like Salim. Salim has been subpar with respect to his passing and court vision. It is theoretically possible but unlikely that he will develop into a passer like Nash.

As far as Magic goes, it is pretty easy rack up assists when you play with the

1. The greatest Center of all time (Kareem)

2. The greatest complimentary player of all time (Worthy)

3. One of the greatest spot up shooters of all time (Scott)

4. Hustle players like Rambis etc.

Not to take away anything from Magic but to be a good distributor you also have to have talented players who know where to be and have the ability to finish. Offensive scheme also makes a difference.

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[Johnnybravo4]

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Are you seriously arguing that Magic's assists were merely a product of playing with great teammates? The man was amazing at setting people up. Of course it is easier to play with some great players but if you can't see that he did more than simply pass the ball to someone who put it in the hole and can't see that he ran that team and controlled the offense in a very good way, then I don't know what to say.

Unlike Nash and Billups, Stoudamire has never been a distributor at any level of the game and he has shown less natural passing ability than the younger Josh Smith. I wouldn't say he could never develop like someone like Billups but what I have seen from Salim makes me think his ability to run the offense and distribute the ball is a weakness to be overcome rather than an asset to be developed. His shooting, on the other hand, has been through some rough spots during the year but is a clearly a natural talent that will be developed into a deadly NBA skill.

C'mon, though, and give Magic, Stockton, etc. the credit they deserve and don't try to make it seem like they aren't true point guards in the sense I described above just because they had some HOFs as teammates.

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I am not challenging the greatness of Magic, all I am saying is that he benefitted from a tremendous supporting cast. If Magic played for the Knicks instead of the Lakers he probably would have avg 5-10 more points and 2 or 3 less assists per game.

Players like Nash and Billups are benefitting from the system they are in. First of all Billups is not a true pg. The only difference between Billups and Sam Cassell, and Franchise are their teammates and a system which requires ball movement.

Nash benefits from playing in an open system where they have perfect spacing, ball movement and the players know how to move without the ball. Trust me if Dallas knew that he would all of a sudden turn into an MVP like player he would still be in Dallas. The same goes for Billups and his previous 4 teams.

[AHF]

First, all players benefit from playing with others who are good. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything on this thread. Who cares if Magic's stats were higher because he played with Worthy? He still was an amazing true point guard and would have been had he been playing with the Clippers. I can't figure out why you brought this up.

Second, I agree with you on Billups and don't consider Billups to be a true PG. He is a scoring point who has become a good enough distributor on a team that shares the ball very effectively. He does not really control the offense the way the great points do.

Third, Nash was a good backup PG in Phoenix the first time around as a distributor (which is why Dallas traded a rising stud in Michael Finley for him); he was a standout PG in Dallas; and then an MVP in Phoenix. I agree he has looked at his best in Phoenix where the system revolves largely around giving him total control of the offense. Like with Magic, I am not sure what this has to do with Salim since Nash was a standout distributor throughout his career.

Nash's rookie year he averaged 10.5 mpg and 2.1 apg. Salim averages twice the minutes (20.3 mpg) and half the assists (1.2 apg). They aren't very comparable players, IMO.

In terms of finding the right system, I think Salim is actually in a very good place in Atlanta. In JJ he has a backcourt mate who can defend SGs and carry the ball-handling and playmaking responsibilities of a PG. That frees Salim to guard PGs and play to his strength (shooting the ball) on offense. If he played in Phoenix I think he would be closer to Quentin Richardson than he would be to Steve Nash.

[Diesel]

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In fact the most pivotal possession of the game is when ford blows by Ivey for a dunk in the lane.

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Yeah, that happened with everybody else with their head turned...

But.. on last night and any given night, Ivey plays much better defense than Salim. Salim is a scorer plain and simple. That's all he does. He hits... Most praise him, he misses, most crucify him...

for me, either way, he disrupts the flow of the offense hit or miss. He doesn't know how to be a team player because truthfully, he's too selfish. That's what was on display last night. Carrying the team was just a by-product of his selfish play.

You don't encourage that. Becuase tommorow night, the situation might be different.. We might be up by 10 and Mr. Selfish will shoot away the lead.

[Johnnybravo4]

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In fact the most pivotal possession of the game is when ford blows by Ivey for a dunk in the lane.

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Yeah, that happened with everybody else with their head turned...

But.. on last night and any given night, Ivey plays much better defense than Salim. Salim is a scorer plain and simple. That's all he does. He hits... Most praise him, he misses, most crucify him...

for me, either way, he disrupts the flow of the offense hit or miss. He doesn't know how to be a team player because truthfully, he's too selfish. That's what was on display last night. Carrying the team was just a by-product of his selfish play.

You don't encourage that. Becuase tommorow night, the situation might be different.. We might be up by 10 and Mr. Selfish will shoot away the lead.

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His present role on this team is to assert his offense and not to distribute the ball or run the offense. All I am saying is give him the responsibility and see what happens. Putting Royal out there is a waste of time.

[Diesel]

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His present role on this team is to assert his offense and not to distribute the ball or run the offense.

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You don't make these guys your starting PGs. Coming out of college Salim at a TO/A ratio of less than 1.1/1.0. That's sad.

Right now, his TO/A is 1.36/1.20... That's equally pathetic.

That says that he's more likely to turn the ball over than to make an assist...

This is not what you want from a PG.

[Packfill]

The upshot of all the back court injuries is at least we got a chance to see what Ivey could do in an expanded role. Turns out, he is not so good. At least they were able to determine this so that they can move in a different direction next year.

[Johnnybravo4]

1 point and 5 fouls last night. Do I finally have the rest of you on my side?