When BK kept drafting small fowards

[tmac13]

Wasn't trading one of our talented young small forwards for a position of need always the plan that was discussed here to justify BK taking the BPA reagardless of need?..I find it interesting that now if anyone mentions trading Chillz. Smoove or Marvin for something we really need they immediately get flamed..

It is starting to seem obvious that Smoove is special..He may not outscore Marvin in his NBA career but his overall game can be overwheming..Marvin will be a good NBA player..He definately has talent, but at some point he has to play..I used to think Smoove could play the 4, I no longer think that..His size and skills can let him dominate the 3 spot..If he is forced to play the 4 he is always going to be undersized..I know, before the old posts are dug up, I have wanted him to play the 4 in the past..I have changed my opinion as his game has developed..

So, do you guys really want Marvin to spend the 1st few years of his career playing behind Smoove?..Why not use him to fill needs like the original plan?

[KB21]

Well, you know my answer. I see no reason that Josh Smith and Marvin Williams can't play alongside each other. Their versatile skills blend very well with one another. The interesting thing is this. Josh Smith's offense is better when he plays power forward, but his defense is better when he plays small forward. Marvin is just the opposite. He's better defensively when he plays power forward, and there isn't much difference in his game when he plays small forward or power forward. Marvin's ability to shoot the basketball and handle the basketball though will ultimately make him better on the perimeter offensively.

I think we are being incredibly short sighted if we try to pigeon hole either player into one particular position. The reason Billy Knight likes players with versatility is the fact that they can play multiple positions during the course of the game.

I also don't believe in the statement that either player, whether it is Josh or Marvin, will always be undersized if they have to play power forward. The NBA isn't exactly loaded with 6'11", 260 lbs power forwards that dwarf Josh and Marvin. The landscape of the position is changing, just as the landscape of the center position is changing. This is why players like LaMarcus Aldridge and Tiago Splitter are being scouted to play center in the NBA. There aren't many 7'1" plus, 280 lbs plus centers that have the kind of mobility and athleticism needed to play in the NBA coming through the ranks. Guys who are 6'10", 240 lbs are playing center in the NBA now. Look at Amare Stoudemire last year, Ben Wallace, Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh...these guys are playing a large amount of their minutes at the center position in today's NBA.

[Weez]

the only way you can pair them together for a significant amount of time, in my estimation, is if you have a defensive anchor/minded center that can block shots.

Zaza is far from that (Defensive minded). he's a 'great player for the money,' and certainly one that I'd like to keep around, even play significantly...but I simply have trouble seeing the Smoove Marvin combo playing alongside anything but what's mentioned above.

[DrReality]

I would hate to part with one of them without first evaluating the players we add. Someone recently posted that our offense is more productive when we go small. And I think combinations could evolve when Al is gone that would make both first and second string dynamic. Long and short of it . . . . it's too early to part with one of these guys unless we get an offer too good to refuse.

[Diesel]

I say if we trade Al for a Defensive PF like Tyson Chandler...

Then either we will have to live with the reality of Marvin or Smoove play off the bench OR Trade one of them.

I would personally like a Smoove/Chandler forward package. I think they would block a lot of shots and would get a lot of rebounds.

I just have no clue as to what Marvin would go for and it may be best to keep him coming off the bench until his skills meet the hype.

[Guest Walter]

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I see no reason that Josh Smith and Marvin Williams can't play alongside each other.

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You can't even say it. You can't even say "Josh Smith is a POWER forward". "Playing alongside each other"? Laughabel response to "Josh is not a Pf".

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Their versatile skills blend very well with one another.

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Except that their versatile skills don't include ANY interior post moves and are exclusively perimeter based. Josh Smith will NEVER have a great back to the basket game. He just isn't interested in it. And why should he be? He's better suited to dominate at Sf!

Again, if you are going to have a 2-Sf lineup you HAVE to have a 2-way dominate center. We could draft for 20 years and not get one of those. This is not a credible plan. Come playoffs when we have no one to feed in the post. Goodbye.

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The interesting thing is this. Josh Smith's offense is better when he plays power forward"

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BULLSH!T Utter nonsense.

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I think we are being incredibly short sighted if we try to pigeon hole either player into one particular position.

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God forbid we actually fill two positions on this team (Yes, JJ has been pigeon-holed a TWO to KB's ire). We also can't waffle on who plays where. This is the most important offseason for us yet. Why? We likely lose a very high pick next year leaving us nothing to work with. After next year our young players potentially resign. They won't sign if we aren't winning. We need to get things right NOW while we can so that when we can our young players will want to resign with us!

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The reason Billy Knight likes players with versatility is the fact that they can play multiple positions during the course of the game.

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Fine for 5 min stretches, but not the other 30. We need starters and we need to fill positions. Positional versatility is a good thing, at the expense of skill versatility? A net loss. We are at the point of lost skill versatility. After Al goes (and he's not so efficient at it) we have no offensive threat post player. We currently have no defensive threat post player. Geeze! Thank goodness we have two Sfs with such varying perimeter oriented games!

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The NBA isn't exactly loaded with 6'11", 260 lbs power forwards that dwarf Josh and Marvin.

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No, but the top 10 Pfs don't include a player who isn't 6'10" or 260. I guess you are willing to live with JS being average for the sake of MW (average starter period).

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The landscape of the position is changing, just as the landscape of the center position is changing.

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Which makes it impossible to play MW and JS at the 3 and 4 respectively, when you consider playing a 6'10", slight center. NBA RULE #1 Thou shalt not be undersized at two adjacent positions! One you can get away with, but you better try and make up with it at the other interior position. IN short, do not think that you can get away with 6'9" 235 (with no - interest in - post moves) and 6'10" 240 at your 4 and 5.

W

[Guest Walter]

That defensive-C better have some decent GD offensive post moves.

You do not win in the playoffs without a post scoring option. JS and MW aren't and will never be that option. If you play them alongside each other the center has to be your post scorer or else you might as well not show up for the playoffs.

W

[pathway23]

Walter tell me how many 7 footers in this league can actually play at the 5? 6'10 is about as close as some can get. Tell me who is 7 feet tall on the Phoenix Suns that can start for them.

[tmac13]

You can't use Phoenix to justify any argument about the Hawks..They have 2 things we severely lack..

*A great point guard that makes everyone better..

*A versitile coach that knows where players fit best and how to get them to perform..(see Diaw)

Get us a great point guard(see Paul..BK didn't see the need, he seems to think anyone can play the point) and a coach with some vision then maybe we could play Marvin and Smoove together long term.

[Guest Walter]

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Walter tell me how many 7 footers in this league can actually play at the 5? 6'10 is about as close as some can get. Tell me who is 7 feet tall on the Phoenix Suns that can start for them.

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Suns haven't won, should they ever it won't be without a legitimate post option, and where's our Nash (and Marion for that matter).

BTW, I'll take a 6'10-11" center if he's BIG and 2-way dominate!

W

[pathway23]

You evaded the most important questions. How many 7 footers in the league can play? As far as I know 6'10 is about as close as some can get.

The league is changing Walter you seem to be locked into some sort of early 90s conception of the league.

[Guest Walter]

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How many 7 footers in the league can play?

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Uh, there are inherently fewer 7' than 6'10" players. So your question should be, relative the the total number of 7' players vs 6'10" how many amongst either can "play" or what percentage of either can "play"?

Then I must ask, what do you mean by "play"? Yes, there are many 7' that can "play". However, they likely have a very different skill set than many 6'10" individuals that can also "play". & Isn't that the whole point? We want above all an interior defensive presence. Harder to find that at 6'10" than 7'.

W

[pathway23]

You're still evading. I mean guys that can play, just that. You can go through every roster, just find me a half dozen, enough for 6 teams in the league. I mean legit quality starting NBA centers at 7 feet tall.

I'll help, start with Shaq and Yao, go from there. The point is that a 6'10 center is fine provided the guy can play some interior D. isn't Zo 6'10? if we had Zo as our starting center we'd be in good shape.

[Packfill]

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You're still evading. I mean guys that can play, just that. You can go through every roster, just find me a half dozen, enough for 6 teams in the league. I mean legit quality starting NBA centers at 7 feet tall.

I'll help, start with Shaq and Yao, go from there. The point is that a 6'10 center is fine provided the guy can play some interior D. isn't Zo 6'10? if we had Zo as our starting center we'd be in good shape.

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I think you are making an argument out of nothin. The point is regardless of how tall the player is, the Hawks need someone who can play good post defense and has a decent post game on offense. Obviously, the taller that player the better as long as he has some mobility. Alonzo in his prime would be perfect - even if he isn't 7'. A Dwight Howard may even work because he plays bog. What the Hawks do not need is a 7' finesse player.

[exodus]

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What the Hawks do not need is a 7' finesse player.

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That is why i don't want the Hawks to pick Bargnani.

[Lascar78]

I don't like the fit, but if it's between him, a SF, or reaching way down for a significantly worse big man like Shelden, I take Bargnani every time. If he really does turn out to be a Dirk or a Pau, every team could use him. And he's still 7 ft

[Packfill]

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What the Hawks do not need is a 7' finesse player.

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That is why i don't want the Hawks to pick Bargnani.

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Agreed. That said, I have never seen Bargnani play, only read about him, and from what I have read he sounds like a 7' small forward.

[Lascar78]

the thing is that's what they said about dirk and pau too, and now they're both all-star caliber PF's. It just depends on just how good he looks in the workouts and such.

[Packfill]

True to an extent. I believe Pau was always advertised as an inside guy. Dirk's shooting obviously was his calling card.

I just think that it is pointless to get one of those guys when the team has a crying need for some interior defense and post offense. Aldrige would be the best fit - or Noah if he declares. Thomas also would fit but the problem with him is that he may be too small to play center even in an age with smaller centers. Maybe ge will bulk up in a few years.

If the pick came down to Bargnani, Morrison or Gay I think the Hawks best move would be a trade, because none of those guys fit a need.

I do think this that the team should start addressing its needs this off-season. They have plenty of young talent to develop at the wing positions.

[Guest Walter]

Name a championship team starting two undersized players at any adjacent position, much less Pf and C. JUST ONE! THAT is what you are suggesting we do by playing JS at the 4 and a 6'10" 240 Lb center. DOESN'T WORK! You can't make up for that by playing 3 forwards elsewhere. You can't be undersized at two adjacent positions! THAT is playoff (assuming you EVER get there) suicide!

Anyhow, here's your 6, 7' centers that can "play" whatever that means...Shaq, Yao, Big Z, Brad Miller, Bogut, Magliore, Chandler (rebounding and BS...however even he needs a big PF beside him), Duncan (part time C), Kaman, Dwight Howard, Dalembert...there you have it.

Honestly, I don't care whether centers are under or oversized I-F our PF is a legitimate POWER FORWARD. If NOT then we are forced to look for a bigger, badder, 2-way dominant center. THAT was the original point of this discussion. Thus, I agree with you that finding such a player at 7' is not common (that's why I pushed so hard for Bogut) and not seen much in this league, but you won't see the new, undersized center alongside a 6'9" 235 SMALL FORWARD at Pf. JUST WON'T WORK!

W