Orl Game should Kill the Smith as a 4 Talk!!!!!!!!

[Buzzard]

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Every qualification that you have given applies to Chillz... So I guess Chillz can be a PF too?

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Unless I am missing something, Chillz does not block almost three shots a game. And my point is you said Smoove has no skills that a good pf has.

My point is he has four solid PF skills plus he shoots a three pretty well which gives him one better than most.

No aurgument, he needs to work on post up moves and D, but to say he has "no" Pf skills at all is ludicrous and was totally short sided on your part.

[Buzzard]

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Don the truth is that these people who say that JSmoove is a PF wants Justification for Marvin.

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You want justification or should I say validation? Smoove at the 4 has been a thought for most open minded (read people with vision) people ever since we drafted 3 forwards two years ago.

This vision had nothing to do with Marvin three years ago and it has nothing to do with limiting Smoove either. It had everything to do his versatile skill set and the fact he has not stopped growing since day one.

Most us with any vision at all, assumed if Chillz did not make it as a 2, we could move him to the 3 and Smoove to the 4. Also, I remember Smoove not having a good jumper either in his 1st year ( bad shooting % this year as well) which made more sense to possibly move him to the four.

No Diesel, the only reason you want to blame this logic on Marvin and not Chillz is the same old story....just Marvin hate, pure and simple. Guarantee you; go back two years before Marvin and you will find same type of post only differences will be Chillz at the 3 and Smoove at the 4 instead of Marvin at the 3 and Smoove at the 4.

Of course there will also be this big difference, you would be sharing the opinion that Chillz and Smoove may work at the 3 and 4 instead of hating on Chillz all season long.

You are not a true fan Diesel, you are a hater of anything that does not fit into your narrow minded skull. It’s that plain and simple.

[clrumph]

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I agree totally Smoove coming into the League was suppose to be a SF. Alot of people want to see Smith play a position which really has zero exp. playing because we have Marvin Williams here. Like I have said before as has Diesel we drafted Marvin Williams and he is the same player Josh Smith is. It is scary to think how good this team would have been not only this year but for the next 10 years with Chris Paul or even Raymond Felton coulda had the best young backcourt instead we are stuck with a big mess. We made a huge mistake in taking this guy we missed out on some of the best pgs in the last 10 years. If a trade presents it self where we could move one of these SF's for a big time PF or C we have to do it. Bottom line is Smoove is a SF and Marvin is SF none of them have the mindset or skills offensively to play the PF position it takes years and years to master low post moves your not just gonna put someone down there and expect them to be Bill Walton overnight. So one of these guys is going to have to go so the other one flurishes at the SF spot because they will be getting a majority of the minutes. Say we keep Smith here Marvin the 2nd overall pick is not gonna be content playing in his shadow and getting 20 mins a game frankly we cant afford to have the 2nd pick playing a back up role. Face the facts we made a huge mistake we need to move on trade one of these guys and Keep moving forward because when its all said and done we have 2 SFs that are 19/20 both of them cant be stars on this team playing the same position.

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My thoughts exactly! Of course you can tell by my name that I want Marvin to be traded and not Josh.

If either Portland or Charlotte are picking ahead of us and are on the clock and Aldridge is still on the board we need to trade Marvin to one of those teams in exchange for Aldridge.

Think about it, both Portland and Charlotte need SF's because they already have their PF's, and both teams wanted to trade up with us to grab Marvin last year. Hopefully his play this year hasn't turned them off and they would still be interested in trading their pick for him. Then we could grab Marcus Williams with our own pick and have this roster next year (assuming Al is gone of course):

PG: Marcus Williams/Lue/Grundy

SG: JJ/Chillz/D Smith

SF: Smoove/Chillz

PF: Aldridge/Batista

C: Pachulia/Edwards

If this happens then it'll somewhat make up for passing on Paul last year but not completely. That being said at least we didn't draft Bogut!

[Diesel]

Sorry my friend but those are not JUST Pf skills.

Hell, Smoove can dribble a basketball does that make him a PG.

Smoove has good range on his shot now.. does that make him a SG??

The answer is no.

When looking at the PF position.

Does he have a Post game?? The answer to this is NO. He doesn't have any experience on being a post player.

Al has been in the league several years and over the years he has picked up some post play... That's the only reason that Al plays Pf.... Because by nature, Al is a SF too. Proof was the other night... Al kept blowing by Battie when he put the ball on the floor.

Smoove doesn't have any post up moves..

That's because he is not a PF.

The effect that it will have is that when we go out with all swingmen, smartly coached teams will break the game down to a halfcourt game and they will force us to win it from outside.

That's part of our problem now. We win based on our ability to outshoot the other team. We rarely go to the foul line. We don't create enough easy opportunities to score. The effect is that when we're not hitting a good percentage from outside... we lose.

That won't change until we get an inside man.

[chillzatl]

If you honestly think he won't or should not add post skills to his game, you're out of your mind. A guy with his build and his skillset would be viewed as a development failure if he does not add post skills to his game (just as Al has done). He doesn't have to be a full time post player to give his team all the benefits of both positions (just as Al does). The same holds true for Marvin.

[Diesel]

No.

The reality is that playing in the post is hard. It's not something you pick up like fly fishing. Normally it takes time to develop.

Now. He can make up his mind that he's going to be a PF and he can spend the next 3 yrs trying to work out footwork, using his body, and post up moves... BUT why?

Why make Smoove play a position that he is not well versed in... when there's his natural position that he plays fairly well?

[Buzzard]

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Sorry my friend but those are not JUST Pf skills.

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I agree totally with your statement and go one further, these are good skills for any player to have. My question is, are you telling me that blocking shots, hitting the boards, dunking, and giving a hard foul are skills that other position players should have but not " good" power forwards?

Because that is exactly what you said when you stated "Smoove has no skills that a good PF should have." Unless you just do not watch the games at all it is obvious Smoove has all three skills and the mind set for that hard foul ( I consider a tough mind set a skill as well, its called balls and a lot people and players do not have them).

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Smoove doesn't have any post up moves..

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Because of Smooves intestinal fortitude and natural ability, post up moves are on the way....no doubt about it. He is only two years removed from high school. Give the kid a break.

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The effect is that when we're not hitting a good percentage from outside... we lose.

That won't change until we get an inside man.

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I agree with this 100% as well. Hopefiully BK gets a center as promised via draft or trade....

[Diesel]

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I agree totally with your statement and go one further, these are good skills for any player to have. My question is, are you telling me that blocking shots, hitting the boards, dunking, and giving a hard foul are skills that other position players should have but not " good" power forwards?

Because that is exactly what you said when you stated "Smoove has no skills that a good PF should have." Unless you just do not watch the games at all it is obvious Smoove has all three skills and the mind set for that hard foul ( I consider a tough mind set a skill as well, its called balls and a lot people and players do not have them).

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The word that I failed to use that clears up this matter is

ESSENTIAL

Smoove does not have the essential skills that a good PF should have.

Quote me.

All these other things as you have mentioned are things that all players can do.

However, when you get into the specifics of the power forward position (which I am talking about)... there are some essentials that are present in good PFs that are not required by other players. Smoove doesn't have those essentials. Not yet. And it would take a great deal of time for him to acquire them.

WHY would you want to waste time like that when you can just find a player who does have those essentials and bring him aboard... LIKE Jermaine Oneal!! If we get JO.. Wouldn't it make sense to let Smoove go back to his natural position of Sf and let JO play his natural position of PF??

[chillzatl]

All things in basketball take time to learn. As Al and a multitude of other player around the NBA have proven, you don't have to devote yourself to one or the other in order to be successful. Basketball is basketball. Great players routinely add new aspects to their games EVERY OFF SEASON. That's not years buddy, that's a summer. Josh doesn't have to devote himself to one or the other in order to become a good option in the post. Look around the league Diesel. How many versatile players are there in the NBA today? players who can play outside or inside. THe NBA is full of them. KG, Rasheed, Dirk, AK, Paul Pierce, Antoine Walker, Al Harrington, the list goes on and one and on. Josh Smith is 20 years old and we're a long way from contending for a title. He has plenty of time to develop ALL aspects of his game, which he should do anyway.

Again, are you going to be so blatantly naive as to tell me that he shouldn't develop a post game. You who claims to be Mr. Basketball. Are you really going to suggest that a 20yo guy with his physical gifts should not develop all aspects of his game, simply because he's had a good half-season of play as a semi-sf?

[Traceman]

Marvin is a NINETEEN year old rookie! He has not been playing in the NBA for 4 years. It will likely be AT LEAST 2 more seasons when Marvin is the ripe old age of 21 before we have ANY idea how good he is going to be. Smoove looks very good right now but I still am not convinced that he will DEFINITELY be a better player than Marvin in 2 or 3 years. I think Marvin has that much potential AND the work ethic and attitude to turn that potential into reality.

I honestly think Marvin is going to be a heady player like Chillz but with more ability. Whether that translates into him being as good as Smoove only time will tell.

Unlike Diesel, I don't have to root against Marvin in order to hope that Smoove becomes a great player. I think there is plenty of room for both to excel, even if neither of them EVER becomes a "true" PF.

Diesel says we have to admit we made a mistake by not taking Paul (even though he wanted Deron Williams). Okay, we admit it! Now can we PLEASE move on from here? Can we please root for Marvin to become a great player despite the fact that BK should have taken Paul? Can we please root for Marvin to become a great player even if he and Smoove play the same position?

I think it is fairly obvious that no amount of bitching about not selecting Paul is going to make NO/OK trade him to us for Marvin. Let it go!

[exodus]

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Can we please root for Marvin to become a great player despite the fact that BK should have taken Paul?

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Diesel and Walter are incapable of that. Even if the Hawks one day make the Finals and lose with a Marvin-Smith forward combo they will say "See, we would have won if we had drafted Paul and got a true pf."

[LastDon]

in the post. Wonder what bum big from miami is going to come up with the game of their life probably walker?

[Guest Walter]

D@mn! I get tired of people suggesting that there isn't an entirely different skill set amongst the Sf and Pf positions. Josh does show an interest in being a Pf but people keep saying he'll become one with just a little hard work. He'll, the best Pf prospect in the world don't just become great Pfs. It takes YEARS. Please.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Can we please root for Marvin to become a great player despite the fact that BK should have taken Paul?

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Diesel and Walter are incapable of that. Even if the Hawks one day make the Finals and lose with a Marvin-Smith forward combo they will say "See, we would have won if we had drafted Paul and got a true pf."

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As much as you think I'm biased, I can understand you having difficulty grasping my point. However, I will attempt one more time in hopes that you will be open minded enough to appreciate it.

First, I agree with Trace, there is not a definative answer about who will be the better player between Josh and Marvin in say 3-5 years. That being said, they are the same age and play the same position suggesting they are on similar if not the same developmental pathway. At the time of the draft, Josh Smith was considered the better NBA prospect and Marvin was the 5-6 best HS prospect along with Dorell Wright in a deep draft. I don't think any of that in relation to Josh and MW has changed based upon performance. I personally think Josh Smith is the better player and prospect, I think his style of play better compliments JJ, and I like his Atlanta ties. Regardless, we nedd to make a decision regarding building this TEAM N-O-W. Let me just add, I suggested to KB that this is not about MW or JS so much as my desire to see a TEAM not lacking necessary skill sets. I do care WHO we trade between JS and MW, per say, but if KB, for example thinks MW is the better player/prospect, make that call and trade JS for an equal value player elsewhere. Sounds rough, I know, but I just think we need to build a playoff contending team and not a frankenstein one.

Next year we no longer have a 1st rd draft pick. The following year we will be forced to resign our young talent. We may be forced to do so without a TEAM built around them or with them in mind. That is not a good prospect.

This year we have a high draft pick and potentially Al as trade bait. While that is some considerable draft and potentially trade currency, I don't think it's enough to fix what ails this team. I currently see this team with 2 starters and 3 (JJ, JS, & MW) current/near future starter quality players (Chill may also be one, but his value to us is as a 6th man at the 2 and 3). We may also need a superstar.

I also see our forward team heading towards playoff disaster with the prospect of a 2, Sf starting lineup next to at best a hybrid center. That's why I cited us AT BEST projecting to give up nearly 40 lbs and 2" to every opposing currently winning team in the paint. THAT's against EVERY winning team this year. Some teams we might be outweighed by 70 lbs and lack 5"! Who knows? NOBODY can suggest that there is ANYTHING good about this prospect. Also consider the post skill vacuum such a team might suffer from. JS WANTS to be a Sf and he practices (those are the skills he is developing) and plays like it. Don't expect this to change. Post skills are almost innate it seems. Players like Al Jefferson just have them and other can work many years and never quite figure them out. I fear JS would be wasted at the Pf position, discouraged, and would never reach his potential, at best being an average Pf.

Where to get the added capital? I suggest MW because Childress has significantly less value in trade and Childress has more value as a high minute BU at the 2 and 3. Nobody else on our roster that I would consider trading has remotely enough value.

NOW, you may continue to disagree, but please don't insist upon dismissing this position because of your own bias. Think it through. JS is NOT nor will he ever be a PF, the 2-Pf "solution", while charming when you are forced into considering it given our roster conundrum, is not feasible. You need a mythical, well-sized, 2-way dominant center to justify it and that is just hard to realize. It's much easier to realize a well-sized 1 or 2-way dominate Pf along with a hybrid Pf/C, likely with defensive leanings. Lastly, we need to make bold changes NOW or risk losing our young talent in 2 years due to an inadequately built complementary roster. Those bold changes call for tough decisions I'm not sure many here are ready to make.

W

[exodus]

You want an example of your bias? Very simple.

Show me one post where you said something complementary about Marvin all season.

That is why you are easy to dismiss.

[Guest Walter]

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Most power forwards aren't 20 lbs heavier than him. i don't think he needs to gain that much weight.

The Hawks just need someone to guard the big pfs that are really centers.

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Actually, the Pfs on winning teams are as demonstrated by height/weight post...Regardless, they winning Pfs generally play like they are 30-40 lbs heavier than him. That's what some post skills will do for you.

Oh, and the fact that all we need to do is get a big Pf, demonstrates that point. You are acknowledging a liability is being created. Why not play JS at the 3 where you won't have to cover for him anywhere?

Assuming you get that complimentary big Pf, you then have to sit JS and play that "big Pf" DURING the time the opposing Pf you got the "big Pf" to play against is in the game. As confusing as that sentence is, the jist? Josh sits against big Pfs. How is this good by your own admission? Wouldn't we rather our lineup dictate the other teams' or rather at least not have our lineup dictated such that we need to sit JS? Big's scoring is more efficient than smalls and in the post season that is doubly so. This is not a good plan.

W

[Guest Walter]

I admit that nobody can know for sure whether he or JS will be the better Sf in 3-5 years. I've also described him as a very good player. I admit I personally don't think he's a potential superstar. Never did. I watched him at UNC and was very clear about that. I also admit I would MUCH rather have gotten a Pg than him, but it is not personal, it is for this very reason that I cited in the previous post. We have a frankenstein team, the draft prospects don't rectify it short of some major changes, and people are willing to overlook that fact for whatever "MW is now part of us" bias. The very bias you demonstrate in addition to your bias you perceive I have that justifies "dismissal" of this position. Sad for you but history doesn't support a team with 2, adjacent undersized interior players making for a successful team. Of course, history must also be "biased".

W

W

[exodus]

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Sad for you but history doesn't support a team with 2, adjacent undersized interior players

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Sad for you that you can't let go of this absurd "adjacent" nonsense, since it is irrelevant.

[Guest Walter]

Prove it's irrelevant, show me all the contending teams with adjacent undersized (interior) players. SHOW ME! Quit the talk and look at all the teams. Review history. Where has this EVER worked, PERIOD?!? You can't so as irrelevant as you may try to make it, history ignores you.

Not only has it not happened, but don't you think if it was remotely a good idea teams would have done it over the last 30 years? Why do you think we're the first to try this frankenstein team notion out? Pheonix is not an example because 1) they have Nash as an MVP and 2) they even traded Q to bring in Kurt Thomas as their starting Pf, realizing that they needed a true Pf if they were going to play a hybrid Pf/C in Amare, and 3) they haven't won anything. Is BK truly a revolutionary the rest of the league will look to follow or just a mad scientist? History intidates the later.

CAN ANYONE OF THE PRO, 2-SF, 2 ADJACENT ADJACENT INTERIOR PLAYERS LINEUP STEP UP AND LEND HISTORICAL CREDENCE TO THIS CONCEPT? ANYONE? Has there EVER been a Final's team whose starters at the 4 and 5 averaged 36 lbs and 2" shorter than the winning teams of the league...and remember THAT is a BEST CASE scenario with us draft Aldridge (who IMO may not be the BPA, but oh how the BPA proponents, namely KB last year, turn face and now draft for positional needs). Likely we don't. We run a 2 Sf lineup with ZaZa, who is significantly bigger than Aldridge...Maybe that is actually better, but it leaves us with a smaller lineup than this year AND a smaller lineup that PLAYS even smaller, having not one post move at the 4.

NO ONE HAS STEPPED UP TO MEET THE CHALLENGE. You can't argue against my position so you must attempt discount ME. That's this political administration's policies and ou see how much good that does everybody involved.

W

[exodus]

Man you are as slow as molasses.

Show me one post where I have advocated an undersized center.

I feel foolish explaining this but in your case it is obviously necesary. In order to have ADJACENT undersized players you have to have an undersized center.