Damn Damn Damn Damn

[Lascar78]

It's improvement, but I guess going from basically 9.5/5/4.5 to 13.5/7/6 is not MIP material. It's improvement, but not MIP. Especially when you go from the worst team to one with the MVP who makes EVERYONE better. I just feel like the minutes and the different team were HUGE factors. Just like a guy like Raja Bell goes there and has a career year.

I don't think he's a horrible selection or anything, I just personally might have picked West or James because their improvements were entirely personal. James came out of nowhere on a bad team (over 20ppg, his previous career high was 12ppg), and West's improvement was remarkable too, and I wouldn't attribute much of it to Paul.

[DJlaysitup]

Quote:

---

...West's improvement was remarkable too, and I wouldn't attribute much of it to Paul.

---

Seriously? From what I saw of NOK on league pass, CP3 was always in control of the offense and setting up players with open shots. That's not to say West didn't also do some good things on his own, but I would put the West/CP3 situation in the same class as the Diaw/Nash situation. Both were helped immensely by the PGs.

[AHF]

David West didn't do much more than get more minutes other than in scoring. Diaw showed greater overall improvement, IMO.

Actual v Predicted

17.1 ppg v 11.5 ppg (67.3% more)

7.4 rpg v 7.97 rpg (7% less)

.9 bpg v .93 bpg (3% less)

.8 spg v .74 spg (7.5% more)

1.2 apg v 1.48 apg (23% less)

I haven't looked at the #s for James.

[dhawk]

JJ 17 ppg, came with Amare and Q in the lineup, Bell is free to score all he wants. Without them two, JJ would have average 20+ per game.

Bell doesn't have Amare in the middle but he averaged shy of 15 points.

The biggest difference is post-season, what is Bell averaging .. 12 points a game.

JJ average 18.8 last year and that is including the game he left in the 2nd quarter with only 8 points after getting hurt on that dunk with Stackhouse. Without that game, he's averaging over 20 again. Big difference between 20 and 12, considering the close games they are losing.

Yes they definitely would fair better if they had JJ, because he actually raised his game for the playoffs.

[Lascar78]

I would attribute much of NO's success to Paul, but Paul doesn't really generate West's points or rebounds, he earns them 1-on-1 in the post for the most part.

[tmac13]

You could argue the other side of that.JJ averaged 18 a game in last years playoffs because Amarie was so dominant inside he was being double teamed often leaving JJ with wide open looks..The Suns now don't have a single player that requires a double team so those wide open looks for the perimeter guys are gone..

Anyway, I am in no way saying Bell is better than JJ..I simply believe the Suns would take Bell, Diaw, and 2 1st rounders for JJ anyday.

As for the "we hate Diaw" crowd that refuses to give him any credit, did Nash get Diaw all those assists and rebounds this year?..Did Nash help him become a good interior defender?..Yes Nash might have boosted Diaws points per game but he didn't singlehandedly create him..If anything give the credit for Diaws improvement to the Suns coaches..They put him where he belonged (inside)instead of trying to force him to be a 1/2/3..Thats just us having poor coaches and the Suns coaches understanding guys strengths.

Thats something I simply don't get about BK..He keeps drafting and signing perimeter oriented bigs and wings who actually need to play a more eurostyle of basketball to be successful, but he hires a coach like Woody that doesn't have a clue how to play them..

[DJlaysitup]

Quote:

---

...Thats something I simply don't get about BK..He keeps drafting and signing perimeter oriented bigs and wings who actually need to play a more eurostyle of basketball to be successful, but he hires a coach like Woody that doesn't have a clue how to play them..

---

That's a good point - he does seem to be mixing styles between coaching approach and some of the players' strengths.

[dhawk]

Good points, but that other side you're referring to, if you watched PHX a lot last year, you'll know that Amare rarely passed the ball, so while he's being doubled and perimeter guys are open, he usually forced his way to the hole and drew fouls, usually "and ones".

Amare only averaged 1.6 assist per game and even less in the playoffs. So JJ didn't benefit when Amare was getting doubled. JJ would get his points in the flow of the game plus they actually ran a play for him to isolate and create as a 2nd option after the 1st option of the pick-n-roll with Amare & Nash. And if Amare was struggling or got in foul trouble, they looked to JJ to score more since he could create his own shot.

[keith]

Did any of you see the game Diaw had last night?If he didn't deserve the most approved player award, what does that tell you about the Hawks front office.The Hawks front office doesn't have a clue.They can't draft,can't evaluate their own talent,bad coaching and crazy owners.The Suns are missing Amare alot more than they are missing Joe Johnson.Most centers and power fowrards don't have many assist,but by them being doubled team that creates open perimerter shots even though the post player might not actually make the assist.The Suns won 50+ games without Amere and without Johnson but with Diaw.

[Diesel]

Quote:

---

The Hawks front office doesn't have a clue.They can't draft,can't evaluate their own talent,bad coaching and crazy owners.The Suns are missing Amare alot more than they are missing Joe Johnson.

---

I'm not hating on Diaw. I think he or West should have been MIP.

However...

I notice in your statement above that you said that the Hawks can't draft? That's kinda inconsistent seeing that they drafted Boris in the first place.

In fact, Phoenix had the chance to take Boris then, but they choose Zarko the great.

The other thing is during the season last year, while being a starter, Boris demanded that the Hawks change their style of play or he would go back to France.

Currently, there's nothing stopping these europlayers from pulling a Vazquez. Boris had to be traded because we were'nt going to change our whole offense to fit him and he wasn't going to be happy here.

[DJlaysitup]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

The Hawks front office doesn't have a clue.They can't draft,can't evaluate their own talent,bad coaching and crazy owners.The Suns are missing Amare alot more than they are missing Joe Johnson.

---

The other thing is during the season last year, while being a starter, Boris demanded that the Hawks change their style of play or he would go back to France.

---

Boris really demanded the Hawks change their style of play? That's interesting. Reminds me of a line from Apocolypse Now...

Col Kurtz: "You disapprove of my methods ?"

LT: "I don't see any method...at all"

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

Boris really demanded the Hawks change their style of play? That's interesting. Reminds me of a line from Apocolypse Now...

Col Kurtz: "You disapprove of my methods ?"

LT: "I don't see any method...at all"

---

Not really. It was a french interview and he was telling them that he was frustrated because he thought that the hawks didn't understand how to use him appropriately, and that if he and woody couldn't see eye to eye and he kept getting small minutes, he might prefer to go back and have a bigger role in France than be a bench warmer in the NBA.

[Diesel]

You have a good point there.

However, you can't have a player that weilds that kind of threat on your team...

[Diesel]

Woody's biggest arguement with Boris was that Boris wasn't aggressive. I don't think that they would have ever seen eye to eye.

[Lascar78]

yes and no. He's sure being aggressive in Phoenix.

I put blame on both.

Boris got more aggressive and was not rewarded, he'd have a great game and then get 10 minutes the next game. Woody also didn't really use him in a way that suited his game. Obviously putting him against bigger players seems to have worked very well and allowed him to use his speed. He also was never really used in pick and rolls where he is excelling in phoenix. We had no discernable offense, and Boris usually caught in a situation where he could either shoot it, drive it 1 on 1, or give it up. He usually didn't catch it in the flow of things with a chance to be creative.

I blame both guys.

[Diesel]

I can only imagine that Royal Ivey will end up somewhere else and will flourish as a PG and this statement will be made...

"Ivey got more aggressive and was not rewarded, he'd have a great game and then get 10 minutes the next game."

It's hard for me to determine fault in the Boris situation. I'm of the opinion that Boris' threat was somewhat treasonous...

At the same time. I wonder if we would have had say Phil Jackson or Pat Riley and they did the exact same thing with Boris would we be pointing the finger..

Or if another coach like Karl or Fratello would have been able to utilize Boris.

It goes back to coaching philosophy..

Do you make the players conform to your system (need)...

or

Do you make your system conform to your players..

I think Phoenix's Coach is definitely a latter case.

It would seem that we were so riddled with holes on our team last year, we could have found a role that fitted Boris better.

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

I'm of the opinion that Boris' threat was somewhat treasonous...

---

He didn't threaten anyone in the hawks organization. He told a french journalist that if they still didn't "get" each other after his 2nd season, he'd go play in france where he could contribute more. That's not a threat.

[Diesel]

My point is this..

When you sign a 4 year deal, you should play out the 4 yr deal.

I think that there should be very big penalties for players who decide they don't like the NBA and leave 2 years into their contract....

Boris could have gone back to Euroleague and what would we have to show for the #1 pick we spent on him??

For that reason, I think the Hawks did the right thing by trading him. His attitude was indeed treasonous. He's like the Sailor who decided that he would rather jump ship than fight.

You say he wasn't threatening anybody but he wasted our pick. We could just as easily have picked Josh Howard with that pick...

I imagine if you go to the Owner's booth of the Orlando Magic and ask them about Fran Vasquez and wheather or not he's hurting the team, they can list off about 5 guys that they could have picked instead that would be making an impact right now.

[DJlaysitup]

Quote:

---

..At the same time. I wonder if we would have had say Phil Jackson or Pat Riley and they did the exact same thing with Boris would we be pointing the finger..

---

Sad thing is...you don't see this type of thing happening on ANY other team. Sure guys get traded and improve their games now and then...but to go from a bench warmer who most everybody has given up on (on one of the worst teams in the league - ever) - to a starter on a serious playoff team is fairly unprecedented. And they guy isn't just a rebounding role player either. He's showing moves around the basket and real game savvy. Throwing down 25...Wow!

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

You say he wasn't threatening anybody but he wasted our pick.

---

No he didn't.

He didn't leave.

He was a frustrated guy talking the big talk to the hometown journalists and saying that potentially in the future he'd consider being somewhere where his skills are appreciated, and that contributing is more important than money to him. Who knows if he really even would have considered doing it?

Besides, I don't believe that he would be allowed to leave unless he and the hawks worked out a deal. Once you've signed a contract I don't think you can just leave, it's not like a guy like Vasquez who's been drafted but has no contract.

Diaw allowed us to get JJ, so it was hardly wasted.