Damn Damn Damn Damn

[Diesel]

It happens more than you like to believe.

I mean. aside from the contender status... Look at Zaza.... Bench warmer. Sorry team. They didn't match... He's become one of the better Centers in the east.

The fact that Boris is on a winning team is not so important.... That's just a circumstance of where he was traded to.

However, Mike James. Who knew?

The same can be said about RAJA Bell too.

[Lascar78]

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He's become one of the better Centers in the east.

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What are you talking about? Since when is Zaza one of the top centers in the east? List your top centers in the east up to Zaza

[Lascar78]

Clearly Better than Zaza:

Shaquille O'Neal

Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Jermaine O'Neal

Emeka Okafor

Andrew Bogut

Jamaal Magloire

Ben Wallace

Alonzo Mourning

About equal or better:

Nenad Krstic

Primoz Brezec

Channing Frye

Samuel Dalembert

Dan Gadzuric

Brendan Haywood

And that's just the east

[AHF]

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..At the same time. I wonder if we would have had say Phil Jackson or Pat Riley and they did the exact same thing with Boris would we be pointing the finger..

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Sad thing is...you don't see this type of thing happening on ANY other team. Sure guys get traded and improve their games now and then...but to go from a bench warmer who most everybody has given up on (on one of the worst teams in the league - ever) - to a starter on a serious playoff team is fairly unprecedented. And they guy isn't just a rebounding role player either. He's showing moves around the basket and real game savvy. Throwing down 25...Wow!

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IMO, you do see the phenomenon of people breaking out on other teams. Atlanta is not unique and the only way it is unique is if you start introducing qualifiers like player from one of the worst teams and guessing as to who had given up on a second year player with multiple tools.

The Pacers traded Jermaine ONeal and he became a key cog on a playoff team and they got back what ended up being jack squat. The Wizards gave up on Ben Wallace as a bench warmer and Orlando included the solid but unspectacular stater and future multiple DPOY as a throw-in to get Grant Hill (a somewhat similar situation to this one). Chauncey Billups was absolutely given up on by multiple teams before becoming an MVP, not MIP, candidate. John Starks was cut by the woeful Golden State Warriors before becoming a standout and All-Star for the Knicks. Detroit and much of the league buried Darko this past season.

In terms of MIP, Bobby Simmons became the MIP for the Clippers after the Wizards gave up on him. There are plenty of examples.

[tmac13]

Woody didn't know how to use Boris..That is the bottom line..Its not like Boris was making demands, that just not true..It was one interview to a french newspaper..

The bottom line is ..Borris is actually playing the 5 on a good team and being a big contributer..Would he have done the same thing here?..NO..Our coaching staff simply didn't think of trying him inside and Woody didn't like him..

I am not saying Diaw would have been as good for us, it just grips me to look throughout the league and see exhawks doing good jobs for other teams at positions where we have a desperate need .

If, if, if..If we had drafted Paul..If we had not included Boris as a throw in and tried him inside like Phoenix did..Where would we be?..We might be talking playoffs instead of lottery..How many questionable moves does this management and coaching staff get?..How many more seasons of less than 30 wins will the ownership tolerate?..How much longer before we aren't near last in attendance?..I know hindsight is 20/20..But at some point do all the fumbled away opportunities to get better catch up with this bunch?

I know BK has made some good moves..

He drafted Smoove..(Through trading SAR and Theo)

He signed Zaza on the cheap..

He got JJ(even though he did overpay)..

He traded SJax for Al..

Those are his good moves..I can't think of any other moves he has made that don't raise a few eyebrows..

Diaw as a throw in..

JJ for Walker that turned into a mid 1st round pick)

Nazr for a 2nd..

Marvin over Paul..

Collier over Pryz..

Taking Chillz at 6..

Signing Edwards over Diop..

Letting an early 2nd in Hansen walk for nothing..

Hiring Woody..

Damn..

[tmac13]

Diaw was a throw in..That deal could have gotten done without Diaw..

[AHF]

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I can't think of any other moves he has made that don't raise a few eyebrows..

Diaw as a throw in..

J

T

for Walker that turned into a mid 1st round pick)

Well used to acquire JJ

Nazr for a 2nd..

mistake

Marvin over Paul..

Collier over Pryz..

to choose one over the other you have to have the option of choosing Pryz and apparently we did not

Taking Chillz at 6..

as shown on the other thread, the guys taken after him have either been much worse or not much better

Signing Edwards over Diop..

mistake

Letting an early 2nd in Hansen walk for nothing..

Drafting Hansen I can see but do you really want him on our roster? I don't

Hiring Woody..

even if he is fired next season he has done an OK job developing the young players. I don't think anyone would have a winning record in his position

Damn..

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My $.02 on the issues that haven't been done to death already.

[Lascar78]

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Diaw was a throw in..That deal could have gotten done without Diaw..

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that's your opinion.

Phoenix said they have been scouting Diaw since he's been in the league and have been looking for a way to get him. I don't think you can get JJ without including Diaw

[tmac13]

I am sure they would have happily taken Salim or even Chillz..I know, you guys are gonna scream about Chillz, but it is pretty obvious that Diaw looks like the better player..

[Lascar78]

I would not trade Chillz for Diaw right now. Diaw needs to play in a Euro system surrounded by shooters and a MVP PG who plays a great 2 man game with him. He's in the perfect system right now, and wouldn't perform nearly at that level if he came back.

[DJlaysitup]

Yeah but if they'd asked for Chillz instead of Diaw, then Chillz might be the league MIP. You never know?

[Diesel]

I agree.

[Diesel]

Most of the guys you mention are not Cs. JO, Bogut, and Okafor are primarily PFs then C.

As far as go goes, I would rather have Zaza for 82 games than Zo for 30.

Those other 3 are better.

[Lascar78]

JO is a PF/C playing 50/50 at both positions. Bogut is a C having to play a lot of PF because of magloire. Okafor is a PF/C.

Even taking JO and Okafor off,

Shaquille O'Neal

Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Andrew Bogut

Jamaal Magloire

Ben Wallace

Alonzo Mourning

Nenad Krstic

Primoz Brezec

Channing Frye

Samuel Dalembert

Dan Gadzuric

Brendan Haywood

are as good or better than zaza. 12 guys, with 15 teams in the eastern conference. He's not one of the better centers.

Shaquille O'Neal, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Jamaal Magloire, and Ben Wallace are the better centers in the East.

Zaza is a young big guy who can score a little and grab offensive boards. He also plays horrible D and grabs few defensive boards. He has potential, but has a long way to go to be one of the best in the East, much less the league

[DJlaysitup]

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...He has potential, but has a long way to go to be one of the best in the East, much less the league

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Agreed Lascar...actually I think his potential will peak out at average (by NBA standards). He can be a nice cog in a 3 or 4 big rotation and possibly with less minutes he'll be more aggressive on defense.

[Lascar78]

yeah I look at him like Lue, a nice complementary piece as a backup, we just don't have the starter in front of him

[Diesel]

Now... Let's get the real starting Centers in the east shall we:

Eddy Curry.. = Zaza.

Jeff Foster = Zaza.

Malik Allen = Zaza.

Illguaskas = Ilgauskas

Shaq = Shaq

Wallace = Wallace

Magloire = Judgement call.

Dalembert = Dalembert.

Battie = Zaza

Brezec = Zaza

Nenad = Zaza

Heywood = Judgement Call.

Perkins = Zaza

Sow = Zaza.

That's 8 to 10 Starting Centers that Zaza is better than in the East.

[Diesel]

I think things will be a lot more different once we get a defensive Big PF.

[tmac13]

Come on Diesel..

Eddy Curry.. = Zaza.==========Curry(much more talented)

Jeff Foster = Zaza.===========Zaza

Malik Allen = Zaza.===========Zaza

Illguaskas = Ilgauskas========Ilgauskas

Shaq = Shaq===================Shaq

Wallace = Wallace=============Wallace

Magloire = Judgement call.====Maglorie(its not even close)

Dalembert = Dalembert. =======Even

Battie = Zaza=================Zaza

Brezec = Zaza=================Even

Nenad = Zaza==================Even

Heywood = Judgement Call.=====Even

Perkins = Zaza================Zaza(But I take Perkins)

Sow = Zaza. ==================Zaza

What it really shows is that Zaza is a middle of the road center..Even guys like Battie, Dalembert, and Heywood play much better defense but thats harder to qualify..

[Lascar78]

First of all you're listing it that way because there are multiple teams with multiple centers better than Zaza. Mourning and Shaq, Magloire and Bogut for instance. But EVEN if you skew it and take just the best center from each team in the East

Boston Celtics : Perkins

New Jersey Nets : Kristic = Zaza

New York Knicks : Frye = Zaza

Philadelphia 76ers : Dalembert > Zaza

Toronto Raptors : ??

Chicago Bulls : Chandler > Zaza

Cleveland Cavaliers : Big Z >>> Zaza

Detroit Pistons : Ben Wallace >>> Zaza

Indiana Pacers : Foster

Milwaukee Bucks : Magloire > Zaza

Charlotte Bobcats : Brezec = Zaza

Miami Heat : Shaq >>> Zaza

Orlando Magic : Battie > Zaza will probably start at C soon)

Washington Wizards: Haywood = Zaza

I would say that there are 4 teams in the east who don't have a C as good as Zaza: Raps, Celts, Magic, and Pacers. And two of those have a guy who is way better splitting minutes at PF / C.

On the other hand, there are 6 teams with a center that is clearly better, and 4 where it's close.

So of the 15 in the east, I'd put him in the 7-11 range. Let's say 8th. 8th out of 15 in your conference is nothing special