Marvin And Smoove CAN Co-Exist

[BusBoyIsBack]

You guys are arguing over something that's not even close to the root of our problem. With Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, and Josh Smith we have a very promising young corp. Not to mention Salim, Childress, and Zaza that are all young. But those three are bench material.

The problem is we need a big man. Is Josh Smith or Marvin Williams the reason we gave up so many points in the paint? No it's because although Zaza is very productive for what we got for him, he shouldn't be a starter. He isn't good enough on offense to be a defensive liability like Dirk Nowitzki and he isn't good enough on defense to make up for lack of great offensive production.

We get a big man in this draft and there is only one more weakness on this team at PG and who knows, Salim may be the next converted PG.

Big man or bust!

[Guest Walter]

And if we don't get a big man in this draft (even Aldridge is a hybrid Pf/C and he's very likely to be drafted before us)?

What then?

I love half ass plans!

W

P.S. I am interested to see your list of NBA finals participants with a 2, Sf starting lineup. I would love to have a road map to help this frankenstein team of parts find its way. Any team come to mind?

[gsuteke]

Marvin and Smoove both need to hit the weights like Smoove did after his rookie season.

Marvin needs to work on his outside game. he needs to work on getting his own shot off the dribble. he needs to work on taking his guy to the hole off the dribble. he needs to work on defending guys shorter than him ala SGs. he'll look stupid at first but practice makes perfect.

Smoove needs to work on his offensive game with his back to the basket. he needs to work on his one on one post up D. he needs to in essence be in big man camp this summer guarding taller and heavier players.

these 2 are extremely talented athletes that can and will play out of their conventional position that their height says they should play. heck it's the only way Billy's plan can work.

[gsuteke]

and btw i am not saying Marvin needs to be our SG and Smoove our Center.

another idea would be to bring in a speed coach ala what Randy Moss did a year or so back to work with Marvin. he looks like he's lumbering at times out there. working with a speed coach would not only improve his initial burst while taking people off the dribble it would also create those athletic mismatches that Billy Knight is looking for in transition. anyhow it's an off the wall thought but i think it could work.

[KB21]

Marvin timed faster in the 3 quarter court sprint than Chris Paul did. Why does he need a speed coach?

Some of you just keep coming up with some of the most ridiculous crap in an attempt to demean Marvin Williams. I can't wait to see some of your reactions when Marvin becomes the Superstar everyone in the NBA knows he will be.

[tmac13]

Maybe he can run, but he is in no respect quick on the court..He looks slow compared to most 3's..I don't think it will be a big issue because he is fluid and has good size, but to try in anyway to pretend he is a quick as Paul is just silly..

[tmac13]

I am curious as to what you want to happen?..Do you want to trade Marvin?..

I agree with you completely that BK made the wrong choice in last years draft..However, we now have Marvin and Smoove..Both are young and both have alot of upside..I fully expect them both to come back bigger and stronger next year..Having two 6'9", 235 to 240 forwards will not make us undersized..As long as one of them can guard the pf spot(and Smoove plays much better defense at the 4 than he does the 3) we will be fine..

I just see all these post where you bash them as a tandem, but I have not read your solution..Maybe I missed it.

[Lascar78]

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I agree with you completely that BK made the wrong choice in last years draft..However, we now have Marvin and Smoove..Both are young and both have alot of upside..I fully expect them both to come back bigger and stronger next year..Having two 6'9", 235 to 240 forwards will not make us undersized..As long as one of them can guard the pf spot(and Smoove plays much better defense at the 4 than he does the 3) we will be fine..

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Exactly

[SmooveTheFuture]

Unless one of them goes to the Power Forward spot and becomes dominant there I dont see how they can go exist both as SFs. Smith has shown he has big time potential at the 3 Spot the same position as Marvin. Who will be the starter there and be the better player is gonna be very interesting to see. Also who is our starting PF next year I read somewhere Smith says he sees himself as a 3 and Marvin sees himself as a 4. Both playing the 3 wont get this team anywhere one of them has to move for them to co exist to any extent at all. There alot of Marvin Homers on here thats great but that still doesnt make up for the bad pick that was obviously made. Its not so the fact that Williams was picked its the fact the Hawks picked another SF when the team is loaded them now we have a flawed lineup where we have to play players in positions they have never played in there careers. Williams will always be linked with passing on Chris Paul until he shows at least 50% of the talent Paul has. Chris Paul will be an allstar for the next 10 years he got snubbed this year. So Marvin has to produce or else your gonna be hearing bust from alot of people.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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And if we don't get a big man in this draft (even Aldridge is a hybrid Pf/C and he's very likely to be drafted before us)?

What then?

I love half ass plans!

W

P.S. I am interested to see your list of NBA finals participants with a 2, Sf starting lineup. I would love to have a road map to help this frankenstein team of parts find its way. Any team come to mind?

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The Suns and Pistons are two teams that have undersized frontcourts and they happen to be playoff caliber teams.

You don't need size as much has you need talent. Would you rather have Manute Bol or Boris Diaw?

Bottomline is that there are some very talented guys capable of playing in our front court.

1)LaMarcus Aldridge

2)Tyrus Thomas

3)Andrea Bargnani

4)Shelden Williams

5)Saer Sene

The first three we will only have a shot at if we have a top 5 pick (if not top 4). Shelden Williams is worth our 6th or 7th pick. Then Saer Sene who could be our baby Mutombo (3 time defensive player of the year form) we could trade down for.

Bottomline is we need to get a big man period. No Randy Foye, Adam Morrison, or Rudy Gay nonsense. None of those guys play down low which is where we need the most help.

The Hawks get killed because of

A)Opposition points in the paint

B)Help defense to stop opposition points in the paint leading to kickout for wide open 3s

That's basically what our defensive problems come down to

[Guest Walter]

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I agree with you completely that BK made the wrong choice in last years draft

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Then let's rectify it. Look to trade him. Don't compound the error of drafting MW, an error both because he wasn't the BPA & because he was to us the most redundant player available. Does that mean TRADE HIM, no. It means look to trade him. Of all our players MW is the single player most likely to help us and least likely to hurt us if we trade him. Period.

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Having two 6'9", 235 to 240 forwards will not make us undersized.

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[/indent]

My biggest issue isn't with height and weight as it is our redundancy of skill sets and the resultant lack of interior skill. That being said, I've posted how with an AT BEST interior lineup of Aldridge and Smoove we still give up 2" and 36 Lbs to the leagues winning teams ON AVERAGE. NO ONE can begin to suggest that this is a good thing.

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As long as one of them can guard the pf spot(and Smoove plays much better defense at the 4 than he does the 3) we will be fine..

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[/indent]

I don't agree Smoove does play better 'D' on 4s and I don't see how you make this claim. I believe JS weakside shot blocking is negated trying climb the backs of bigger men. Any combination with JS at the 4 necessarily lowers JS ceiling to AT BEST a mediocre starting Pf (not top 10) and hurts the team overall (lacking necessary interior offensive and defensive skill sets that become even more apparent in the playoffs).

What I want?

I want a team that isn't handicapped, being too short and/or small, lacking skill in favor of skill redundancy. I want such a team NOW as we cannot make such large changes needed next year without a top draft pick and the year following we must resign our youngins. MW is the most redundant player, he's never been as good as JS EVER (so why should we expect him to become so now), and yet as a project or prospect he seems to have more value than his HS, college, or NBA rookie production would ever indicate. Thus, of all our players, trading him would most help the team and least hurt the team.

I would choose a certain very good deal over a possible great deal. By this I mean, if I could trade MW for a top 3, maybe 5 pick in this draft I would. If not, I would then look to trade him with or without a resigned Al Harrington. Ideas (Diesel and others have mentioned) include both for JO, MW for Shaun Livingston, the like. I like these deals better or as much as trading MW for a high draft pick, but I see them or less likely and would consider the pick a bird in the hand. Certainly, any pick drafted could be not immediately signed and also traded but that is even less likely than the other two options above.

In short, the recipe for NBA success has never suggested skimping on height, weight, and interior skill. Instead of trying to change the recipe we should get the right ingredient. MW isn't so sweet we should leave out the flour. His draft status was the anomoly of his career. The best thing he's ever done. He wasn't that highly touted out of HS, didn't do enough at UNC, and has demonstrated despite being older and more experienced that he's 25% less productive than JS and not more productive than Webster and some other HS to pro Sfs.

He's just not that special, not so special we should

d@mn

JS development and lower his ceiling at Pf AND hurt the team by handicapping it with less height, weight, and interior skill. He's not so special and yet he has value. Let's use that value to get something of more value to us.

W

[Guest Walter]

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The Suns and Pistons are two teams that have undersized frontcourts and they happen to be playoff caliber teams.

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The Suns have a 2-time league MVP, they haven't won anything, and they tried to remedy that by trading for Kurt Thomas. At least with a lineup of Thomas and Amare (their anticipated lineup without injuries) they would have had two physical Pfs. With JS and whatever hybrid C/Pf we would still have only one, oh, and that's without a true Pg much less without a 2-time MVP at Pg!

The Pistons still would be AT LEAST an 1" taller (even with Aldridge), 30 lbs heavier, and with infinitely more interior skill. Hell, they might have the best interior defensive duo in the game with Wallace and Wallace.

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You don't need size as much has you need talent. Would you rather have Manute Bol or Boris Diaw?

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When have I EVER suggested trade MW for no talent. The straw man cometh. You need both size and talent AND interior skill. My suggestions are to either trade MW for a top 5 pick or to trade him this offseason either packaging him with Al for say JO or trading him outright for say Livingston. Are JO and Livingston not (more)talented?

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Bottomline is that there are some very talented guys capable of playing in our front court.

1)LaMarcus Aldridge

2)Tyrus Thomas

3)Andrea Bargnani

4)Shelden Williams

5)Saer Sene

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Of these WHO will be available to us? All of your top 3 might be gone and at least 2 will. Both Thomas and Bargnani are Pfs so you have to bench either JS or MW. Aldridge is a hybrid, but he still will make us ON AVERAGE 2" shorter, 36 lbs less, and significantly less skilled interiorly than the winning teams of the league. More importantly, he most definately won't be available whenwe pick so WTF even bother putting him on your list.

That leaves Williams (a Pf) and Sene (a reach). And THIS prayer of yours is a more credible option than trading MW for a similarly TALENTED player at a position of need? PULEAZE.

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Bottomline is we need to get a big man period. No Randy Foye, Adam Morrison, or Rudy Gay nonsense. None of those guys play down low which is where we need the most help.

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No the bottom line is there isn't a "big man period" available to us in this draft, the very good Pfs available all necessitate MW or JS be benched. Given we'd still have 2 positions, C and Pg unfilled, THAT is not a reasonable option!

W

[tmac13]

Well, your just wrong on Smooves defense..He is a much better defender at the 4..He continually get blistered by quicker 3's and usually does a good job on the 4's.

[Guest Walter]

It's got you confused as to what interior defense is "good" and what isn't.

...on this we may just have to disagree. There aren't any Pfs 6'9" or shorter AND 225 lbs or lighter listed in the top 10 Pfs for a reason and I wouldn't guess it's because they usually play such good defense on their taller, bigger, in this case more interior skilled counterparts.

W

[dalamchops]

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It's got you confused as to what interior defense is "good" and what isn't.

...on this we may just have to disagree. There aren't any Pfs 6'9" or shorter AND 225 lbs or lighter listed in the top 10 Pfs for a reason and I wouldn't guess it's because they usually play such good defense on their taller, bigger, in this case more interior skilled counterparts.

W

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i think smith's a bit more than 225.

[Guest Walter]

and I used player's listed wts in my comparison of our projected frontline vs the winning teams (and we came out 2" shorter and 36 lbs lighter), thus, many other players that weigh more than their list (alah Shaq) still listed like they were on a diet.

W

[BusBoyIsBack]

Josh Smith

6’9 240

Ben Wallace

6’9 240

How are we undersized again? And Rasheed Wallace is no bigger than Aldridge, Sene or Bargnani. Sure he's bigger than Shelden Williams but Shelden Williams is also bigger than Elton Brand.

[Diesel]

I understand you play on Ben Wallace being an undersized Center...

BUT...

Rasheed Wallace is what 6'11"?

Tayshun Prince is what.. The longest player in basketball?

Then they have reserves like 6'9 245 McDyess who plays PF and is a PF.

6-11 Dale Davis.

6-11 Kevin Cato

[Wurider05]

You are right. Marvin probably has the best jumper on this team so why would he need to work on his outside shot. The only thing that he has to really work on is his post moves. I hate it when you guys try to demean him.

[Johnnybravo4]

The only issue about our size is in the rebounding department. But as Dennis Rodman and Eddy Curry demonstrate, rebounding is about position and effort, not size..ergo Rodman is a good rebounder, Curry is not.