Recent Sf rookie per 48 TENDEX

[Guest Walter]

Lebron James 24.44*

Carmelo Anthony = 22.1

Josh Smith = 21.97*

Danny Granger = 20.55

Marvin Williams = 16.66

Gerald Green = 16.39*

Martell Webster = 15.17*

Victor Krypya = 14.46

* rookie out of HS

Just a taste of where MW fits. He didn't produce per minute significantly more than Green or Webster out of HS and 25% less than JS out of HS.

We all know that James and Anthony actually produced more, given they played more.

Of course, the MW "free pass" is about to be used...again.

W

[Buzzard]

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We all know that James and Anthony actually produced more, given they played more.

Of course, the MW "free pass" is about to be used...again.

W

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Exactly what is "TENEX? And if it can be wrong on the high end (in your expert opinion ) with James and Anthony, exactly what makes it accurate at all?

[KB21]

TENDEX is a pure crap stat that has been completely dismissed by knowledgeable basketball people.

[Popeye]

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Lebron James 24.44*

Carmelo Anthony = 22.1

Josh Smith = 21.97*

Danny Granger = 20.55

Marvin Williams = 16.66

Gerald Green = 16.39*

Martell Webster = 15.17*

Victor Krypya = 14.46

* rookie out of HS

Just a taste of where MW fits. He didn't produce per minute significantly more than Green or Webster out of HS and 25% less than JS out of HS.

We all know that James and Anthony actually produced more, given they played more.

Of course, the MW "free pass" is about to be used...again.

W

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Omg, Lebron and Carmelo were better than Marvin. Ok he sucks!!! Do you think he should of been better than them???

[Guest Walter]

http://www.dougstats.com/04-05MainTendexPage.html

And I believe when comparing TENDEX it is ideal to compare players with similar minutes. Players who actually produce for 36 MPG (Carmelo, Lebron) despite fatigue, etc. are necessarily better than those who do so for 25 (JS) but get projected for the rest.

BTW, those were some lame ass comebacks. KB, you've even used TENDEX. This is funny.

W

[pathway23]

Something I've noticed there, is that all of those guys on your list above Marvin were given plenty of opportunity to produce and in situations where they played a larger role in the team's offense...Lebron is just an incredible phenom, Carmelo was a similar situation to Marvin, but Carmelo was thrown right in, Marvin is being brought along slowly. If you looked at Josh Smith's tendex for the first half of last season, it was likely similar to what Marvin had the first half of this season. The difference is that Josh was given a lot more opportunity to produce in the second half of that year in a situation where the team traded away Antoine and didn't have a second scorer. You can call it excuses for Marvin all you want but that list actually makes me MORE satisfied with what Marvin did. Danny Granger is not better than Marvin as a rookie, the difference there is clearly playing time.

[Guest Walter]

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Something I've noticed there, is that all of those guys on your list above Marvin were given plenty of opportunity to produce and in situations where they played a larger role in the team's offense

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That's because they were good enough to handle it despite equal or less experience. Carmelo and Lebron were not included as an actual comparison to MW as they were superstars and MW most certainly is not and will not be one, however, overall production per 48, rookie Josh is far closer to them than MW is despite a year older and more experience. THAT IS HUGE!

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The difference is that Josh was given a lot more opportunity to produce in the second half of that year in a situation where the team traded away Antoine and didn't have a second scorer.

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Josh had the same opportunity at the same age as MW THIS YEAR and Josh still was 25% more productive. Starting to see a TREND here?

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Danny Granger is not better than Marvin as a rookie, the difference there is clearly playing time.

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They played within 2 MPG (actually less for Granger, so there went your argument) of each other. Does 2 MPG either way make up for 20% lower MW production?

W

[Popeye]

Danny Granger played when O'neal got hurt and Artest got suspended.

Who was the other Sf on the team??.. Nobody!

Marvin is playing along with Al, Smith and Chill all of them true Sf's.

I don't think Woody draw one play for Marvin the whole year, all the jumpshots he hit was just passing around on perimeter and getting loose balls inside.

[BusBoyIsBack]

So what's the point of this? Since Marvin Williams rookie season wasn't as good as LEbron or Carmelo's he'll never amount to anything? Is that what you want us to infer from this meaningless stat?

[Wurider05]

We didn't have Joe Johnson when Josh was a rookie and don't forget that Josh started nearly every game after the allstar break because we traded Walker. It is amazing how soon people forget. Josh productivity should have been higher he played way more minutes and there were alot more shots and opportunity to go around. You can't compare their situations. When MW started he put up better numbers than Josh (outside of the blocks). Bottom line whether you like Marvin or not he wasn't given the same amount of play time as other rookies but when he did start you saw what he could do especially after the allstar break.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Point is we're b*tching about the SF position again even though it's not even close the root of our problems.

We didn't lose 56 games because Marvin or Smoove are terrible. We lost games because we cant stop anybody down low.

[pathway23]

Exactly. Our problem down low is 10 times more serious than our problem at PG, which is a problem, but at a much smaller level (we only need a capable guy to run the show while JJ is on the bench). We need a true C, or a PF that can bang to pair with Zaza. Our problem was having 2 softies at 4 and 5, Al and Zaza. Hopefully Smoove can have another offseason to bulk up and be able to handle the big boys at the 4, but we still need more size up front, Zaza should be on the bench.

[Nicholasp27]

AND, al was out for a good solid month after toine was traded as well

marvin had to play next to iron man the entire season...smoove/chill got to play without al/toine for a good month and both put up GREAT stats during that time

[Diesel]

Actually, I see that Josh was able to do better with a squad full of Rookies and hasbeen and Marvin wasn't able to do better with a squad full of good vet players... as not being a good point in the MW pass column??

Who is better?

A player who gets on the floor with Kobe/Shaq and the Lakers and he doesn't do so well.

Or

A player who gets on the floor with Frye, Robinson, Lee, and a bunch of has beens and he shines.

My thought is that the player who is surrounded by competence should do better... Period. JJ is not a selfish player by any means... Therefore, Marvin should have done a lot better than Smoove who had to spend the latter half of last season playing with guys who were not competent and the first half of last season playing with A selfish Walker (comparatively)..

The fact that JSmoove came out better than MW is a slight against Marvin not a point in his favor?

[chillzatl]

Diesel and Walter: Enemies United. Did you two get together in the mountains of North Carolina and have a Brokeback vacation?

Jokes aside.. you two are going to extreme levels of lameness to "prove" that Marvin isn't capable of performing at the level of a #2 pick. Comparing one rookie to another in an effort to do this is stupid and proves nothing and you both know this. Why not just stop being lame about it and let him become whatever he becomes. If he's not living up to it 2-3 years from now, then you can bash him all you like. You're shrinking to the level of a common net troll.

But I'll admint, it's cute watching you two back each other up on something.

[Lascar78]

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my god you guys are lame

Diesel and Walter: Enemies United.

...

You're shrinking to the level of a common net troll.

But I'll admit, it's cute watching you two back each other up on something.

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Agreed all the way

[thesheedera]

Diesel, did you just compare the 05-06 Hawks to the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, and the 04-05 Hawks to the 05-06 Knicks bench?

Also, Al Harrington this season was just as selfish as Walker ever was as a Hawk. Both guys are black holes when they get the ball.

[Diesel]

It's just coincidental that two guys who sees the team logically can see the failing logic of the rest of you who see the team emotionally.

I'm passionate about the Hawks no doubt...

But LOGIC suggests that you don't duplicate a position when you don't need to.

I think Walt's position maybe that statistically Marvin had a bad rookie year. And that Marvin will never be better than Smoove.

Where him and I agree is that Logically, it makes no sense for us to force either one of those Sfs to be a PF because neither one has the essential skillset of a PF.

Half of Hawksquawk must be addicted to playing NBALIVE or whatever you play because you fail to recognize that Positions have meanings and require definite skillsets....ie. you just can't pull a BK and put players anyway you see fit and call them that because they are on the roster.

My contention is that if the Hawks had a True Pf, then Smoove would magically become a Sf again...

I'll use my Boozer example here.

if we traded Al for Boozer.. Does Smoove sit the bench behind Boozer while Marvin and Boozer become starting forwards?

As far as Walts three questions, I tried to honestly answer one of them..

The 2 Sfs being successful.

The closest answer I could come up with were the supersonics... However, Jack Sikma was a good 2 way C..

[chillzatl]

argue with you over it.

It is NOT simply about you using logic to say that we duplicated a position that we didn't need. You don't need to make 1000 post talking about how he will never be a star to get that message across.

Everyone knows we needed a PG and that BK drafted another forward. The problem is that you, with your omnipotent logic won't stop raking him across the coals for not being the player you wanted to be picked. As if he should have just walked up to the podium and said "thanks for picking me #2. But you guys need a PG, you should take Chris Paul". It sure seems like your great logic would prefer that illogical response.

So don't bullshit me. I've been around and read your multitude of "Marvin doesn't have XXX to be a star" posts. Don't try to pass it off as something so simple as us needing a PG and picking a SF.

Who cares if we have two young SF's on our roster right now? WHO CARES? This team, regardless of who we had on it, would not be the team we make our championship run with. We will have to make trades in order to build the team that we need, at the time we are ready, to win with. Having two SF's who will push each other to become better, is a great trade asset to have when that time comes.

[Diesel]

When I say that Marvin don't have the XXX to be a superstar..

It's most always in comparison.. To Paul...

Let's look at the Logic again.

The only reason that we picked Marvin over a needed position was because he was the BPA...??????>?!???

How many times have you heard BPA, BPA.

Well, if that's true, then he has to prove that he's BPA.

He didn't do it his first year. Hell, I can think about 7 players out of this draft that had a better first year.. Maybe 10..

The other question..

Who cares if we have two young Sfs.

Come on Chillz..

Do you honestly believe that JChillz is a SG?

But seriously.. I question your thought that this team couldn't make a championship run.

I look at our team that we should have had and I look at Milwaukee.

Had we made the right pick, we would have been years better than Milwaukee.

So we would have at least been in the playoffs.

Once in the playoffs, almost anything is possible.