You have got to be effin kidding me!!!

[Johnnybravo4]

The All defensive team was announced to day and there was no mention of Smoove on the list. It was just a homer dream of mine for him to get on the first or second team, but he wasn't even on the "Also receiving votes" list. Are you kidding me?

Now we all may disagree on the importance of blocked shots in total defensive prowess, but everyone has to admit that if Josh is 4th in the league in bpg and is 2nd in the league in total blocks, he should get at least one vote.

They gave Jason Terry a vote. Mike James got a vote..Yao Ming soft azz even got a vote. I know that the team stunk this year but this is ridiculous.

[Johnnybravo4]

Link

http://www.nba.com/news/alldefensive_060511.html

[Lascar78]

I know you refuse to accept this, but blocks are only a tiny part of playing D. Smith is not one of the 10 best defenders in the league. Now some of the other guys receiving votes weren't either, but you don't get sympathy votes on a losing team

Also already posted

Seriously I wonder who voted Mike James though. Coaches can't vote for their players.

[Final_quest]

I don't get how Jason Kidd is first team ahead of Billups. Do people just vote for the most renown players?

[Johnnybravo4]

But not one vote? How many fast breaks points did josh prevent this year. How many layups and hooks did he reject from weak side help? People talk about his on ball defense, but he is a shot blocker. Shot blockers are notorious for giving up points when you go right at them. Because as good Ben Wallace is, he sometimes gets abused on one on one situations.

But in my opinion this list lost its credibility when you don't have Gerald Wallace on the 1st or second team, but you have Kobe on there. Charlotte was the #1 defensive team in the league, and they don't have anyone on the list.

[swolehawk2]

I wonder if that the first time a player has that many total blocks and bpg and did not get ONE vote for all defensive team?

Not one vote.

[Diesel]

No G. Wallace.

Dude gets 2.6 Spg, 2.5 bpg and he's an honorable mention...

Yet... Kobe and Kidd makes the team.

Camby a second teamer???

Boris Diaw... 1 vote?

[Johnnybravo4]

It has got to be...it wasn't as if Josh was 10th on bpg and total blocks...he was 4th and 2nd

It is the equivalent in the NFL of a CB being 4th in the league in interceptions but not getting an all defense vote

[Johnnybravo4]

Quote:

---

No G. Wallace.

Dude gets 2.6 Spg, 2.5 bpg and he's an honorable mention...

Yet... Kobe and Kidd makes the team.

Camby a second teamer???

Boris Diaw... 1 vote?

---

But according to Las, those statistics don't count...now how in the hell he judges defense I am not sure, unless he watches film on every player in the league and can determine who can shuffle his feet and stay in front of his man the best.

Folks have to realize that some people are scheme defenders and some are great individually. People like Kobe seem to be better defensively because their scheme allows them to roam around and intercept the occasional inside pass. But All defensive teams should be based upon individual performance, and the only way you can truly determine that is by statistics....unless you use the above Lascar technique.

P.S. Quinton Ross got an effin vote. He avg less than a steal and a block per game in 26mpg. They might as well have given Salim a damn vote.

[chillzatl]

Quote:

---

But All defensive teams should be based upon individual performance, and the only way you can truly determine that is by statistics.

---

that's an absurdly naive comment to make. Are you going to suggest for a second that Bruce Bowen isn't 1st team all-defense? But where are his stats? Artest? stats?

Stats are a nice TV way to measure defense. But they are not the sole measure or the most effective measure of defense. Some players don't get steals because they are sticking to their man, keeping them from being able to get good shots. Steals don't mean [censored] to them. Some players are too busy shutting guys down on the perimeter to get blocks. Some guys do ALL those thigns.

Again, JT has consistantly been in the top 20-30 steals per game in the league his entire career. But are you going to suggest that he's a top 20-30 defender? Give me a break..

[Johnnybravo4]

Bruce Bowen's defensive prowess is easier to gauge because the Spurs come on TV every day and it is easier for the press to vote on those players. I am not saying that you have to have stats in order to be considered a good defender, but I will say that having good stats is a pretty good indicator that you are a good defender.

There are several ways to defend. You can be an on ball defender, like Bowen. You could be a pure shotblocker like Mutumbo and Theo Ratliff and to an extent Josh Smith. Or you could be both like both the Wallaces. In my opinion, one isn't necessary better than the other. So to me it is illogical to say that a good shotblocker is a bad defender. He may be a bad on ball defender, but if he changes several posessions a game by blocking, and altering shots, then that counteracts his shortcomings on the ball.

But to make a long story short. I give the benefit of the doubt to people with stats. There are always exceptions however.

[chillzatl]

like I said in another thread in around the league. I think reputation has a LOT to do with it. Call it popularity, reputation, whatever. Bowen has a reputation for being a great defender, unless there are glaring examples of how he lost a step (as was the case for gary payton), then most will still consider him one of the best. Which makes it hard for other guys to get noticed. But as long as they keep up their good defense, they will work their way up in there and get noticed. Great defense is such a subjective thing to judge, especially when you're trying to say that one really good defender is better than another really good defender.

[Lascar78]

whatever man. Smith is a great help defender, but he is not overall one of the best 4 defenders at the forward position. In order for a coach to vote for him, that's what they have to be saying.

Jason Kidd deserves to be first team. So does Billups, but not everyone can get on. They both got 9 first team votes, Billups got 23 points while Kidd got 28. It was close.

Kobe being first team is a complete traveshamockery, but there's nothing new there. He's been getting there on a yearly basis and has never deserved it in my book.

As for Gerald Wallace, is he one of the 4 best forward defenders in the league? I don't know. He's definitely up there. But look at the top forwards. 5 got in because of the weird tie thing, but otherwise the cutoff was:

Forward Andrei Kirilenko, Utah 44 (19)

Forward Ron Artest, Sacramento 30 (11)

Forward Tim Duncan, San Antonio 23 (7)

Forward Kevin Garnett, Minnesota 18 (4)

---------------------------------------

Forward Tayshaun Prince, Detroit 13 (3)

Rasheed Wallace, Detroit, 12 (3)

Gerald Wallace, Charlotte, 11 (3)

There is no question in my book that AK, Artest, and Duncan are unquestionably the 3 best forward defenders. I also agree with KG as the 4th best. Prince, Sheed, and Gerald are all withing 2 points of one another, and all got 3 first-team votes, so it's just about a tie. I would probably put Gerald>Prince>Sheed , but it's no travesty that Wallace didn't get in. I don't know that Gerald ever locks anyone down, or that anyone fears playing him. He's just a guy who pokes a lot of balls loose and gets a lot of help blocks. I'll take TD, KG, AK47, and of course Artest over him any day of the week to put him on a man and try to shut him down over the course of a game

[Plainview1981]

Quote:

---

whatever man. Smith is a great help defender, but he is not overall one of the best 4 defenders at the forward position. In order for a coach to vote for him, that's what they have to be saying.

Jason Kidd deserves to be first team. So does Billups, but not everyone can get on. They both got 9 first team votes, Billups got 23 points while Kidd got 28. It was close.

Kobe being first team is a complete traveshamockery, but there's nothing new there. He's been getting there on a yearly basis and has never deserved it in my book.

As for Gerald Wallace, is he one of the 4 best forward defenders in the league? I don't know. He's definitely up there. But look at the top forwards. 5 got in because of the weird tie thing, but otherwise the cutoff was:

Forward Andrei Kirilenko, Utah 44 (19)

Forward Ron Artest, Sacramento 30 (11)

Forward Tim Duncan, San Antonio 23 (7)

Forward Kevin Garnett, Minnesota 18 (4)

---------------------------------------

Forward Tayshaun Prince, Detroit 13 (3)

Rasheed Wallace, Detroit, 12 (3)

Gerald Wallace, Charlotte, 11 (3)

There is no question in my book that AK, Artest, and Duncan are unquestionably the 3 best forward defenders. I also agree with KG as the 4th best. Prince, Sheed, and Gerald are all withing 2 points of one another, and all got 3 first-team votes, so it's just about a tie. I would probably put Gerald>Prince>Sheed , but it's no travesty that Wallace didn't get in. I don't know that Gerald ever locks anyone down, or that anyone fears playing him. He's just a guy who pokes a lot of balls loose and gets a lot of help blocks. I'll take TD, KG, AK47, and of course Artest over him any day of the week to put him on a man and try to shut him down over the course of a game

---

Jason Kidd deserves first team? Dude got lit up by ANTHONY JOHNSON. JKidd isn't a good defensive player anymore. To many problems with his body.

[Plainview1981]

Quote:

---

whatever man. Smith is a great help defender, but he is not overall one of the best 4 defenders at the forward position. In order for a coach to vote for him, that's what they have to be saying.

Jason Kidd deserves to be first team. So does Billups, but not everyone can get on. They both got 9 first team votes, Billups got 23 points while Kidd got 28. It was close.

Kobe being first team is a complete traveshamockery, but there's nothing new there. He's been getting there on a yearly basis and has never deserved it in my book.

As for Gerald Wallace, is he one of the 4 best forward defenders in the league? I don't know. He's definitely up there. But look at the top forwards. 5 got in because of the weird tie thing, but otherwise the cutoff was:

Forward Andrei Kirilenko, Utah 44 (19)

Forward Ron Artest, Sacramento 30 (11)

Forward Tim Duncan, San Antonio 23 (7)

Forward Kevin Garnett, Minnesota 18 (4)

---------------------------------------

Forward Tayshaun Prince, Detroit 13 (3)

Rasheed Wallace, Detroit, 12 (3)

Gerald Wallace, Charlotte, 11 (3)

There is no question in my book that AK, Artest, and Duncan are unquestionably the 3 best forward defenders. I also agree with KG as the 4th best. Prince, Sheed, and Gerald are all withing 2 points of one another, and all got 3 first-team votes, so it's just about a tie. I would probably put Gerald>Prince>Sheed , but it's no travesty that Wallace didn't get in. I don't know that Gerald ever locks anyone down, or that anyone fears playing him. He's just a guy who pokes a lot of balls loose and gets a lot of help blocks. I'll take TD, KG, AK47, and of course Artest over him any day of the week to put him on a man and try to shut him down over the course of a game

---

Rahseed Wallace is a better defensive player than Tim Duncan.

[Johnnybravo4]

Since this is a yearly award you can take away Artest because he only played half a season. I don't know about Garnett, his defense never really impressed me, Tim Duncan either, since they both always play whomever the other team's weakest post player is.

All I am saying is that the vote is becoming like the MLB Golden Glove vote. I mean no matter what anybody does, no one will ever replace Andruw Jones and Greg Maddox at their respective positions until each retires.

[Lascar78]

Quote:

---

Since this is a yearly award you can take away Artest because he only played half a season.

---

There's a minimum # of games for all these awards, he apparently met it. He played close to 70% of the season

Quote:

---

I don't know about Garnett, his defense never really impressed me, Tim Duncan either, since they both always play whomever the other team's weakest post player is.[/.quote]

Wow, I don't even know what to say about that. Not even true at all. They guard the PF's, who are often the best players on the other team. They are both absolutely amazing post defenders.

[Johnnybravo4]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Since this is a yearly award you can take away Artest because he only played half a season.

---

[/indent]

There's a minimum # of games for all these awards, he apparently met it. He played close to 70% of the season

Quote:

---

I don't know about Garnett, his defense never really impressed me, Tim Duncan either, since they both always play whomever the other team's weakest post player is.[/.quote]

Wow, I don't even know what to say about that. Not even true at all. They guard the PF's, who are often the best players on the other team. They are both absolutely amazing post defenders.

---

[/indent]

I have never seen them guard each other when they play. As opposed to say the battles between Olajuwan and Shaq back in the 90's.

[Popeye]

I agree with JB that Smith should of gotten at least one vote. I don't know why does anyone want to agree with that.

He didn't say he should of been the first team def but just so that he got considered.

JB is right that statistics make you good def player except Bruce Bowen.

Larry Hughes, Kidd, AI(last year i think) just got in because of the amount of steals they had.

Gerald Wallace has good def stats and is a good defender, but i think he didn't get it because his team was bad. Maybe that prevent Smoove to not get a single vote, who knows.

[BusBoyIsBack]

Why no Gerald Wallace, Why no Josh Smith? Look at our record. Look at Charlotte's record. How many nationally televised games did either one of us have? You aren't on the winning team you will get no respect.

Now Im not saying Josh Smith deserves to win DPOTY but he certainly has that potential. He just has to work on his defensive positioning and he has to learn when to go for the block and when to just contest the shot.